Kudu

I suggest to my gifted Scouts that they compare and contrast Golding’s Christian view that humans are inherently sinful, with Baden-Powell's Christian view that humans are basically good. In "Lord of the Flies" when boys go to the woods without adult supervision, they UNLEARN citizenship. In "Scouting for Boys," they go into the woods without adult supervision to LEARN citizenship.

More from Comic-Con: "Ender's Game" producer Roberto Orci responds to the anti-Ender campaign: http://preview.tinyurl.com/ken3ol7

So, NPR did not censor Ender, they chose a panel of feminists to censor Ender. The on-going anti-Ender campaign was addressed by Harrison Ford this week at Comic-Con: http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/18/showbiz/comic-con-enders-game

To me, the BDU blouse looks just like the early BSA Scout Uniforms, but my purpose was to show that the current BSA uniform could be easily constructed from outdoor materials, rather than the official indoor dress designer version that most Boy Scouts hated with a passion. At the time REI made a excellent breathable nylon hiking shirt (with a generous ventilation flap on the back) the same color as the BSA shirt, so we used that.

We always scheduled the six meetings as part of the already scheduled monthly PLC meetings, so they were not additional events. As for the total length of each meeting, remember that "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" is designed to teach your Troop's most mature leaders how to hold Patrol Meetings, Patrol Hikes, and Patrol Overnights apart from the Troop and without adult supervision. If you scale that level of responsibility (equivalent to a BSA Lifeguard) down to the usual Wood Badge level where everything is planned as a Troop event through the PLC, then the trained Patrol Leaders can hold their Patrol Meetings at weekly Troop Meetings, and the actual Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights on Troop Campouts. This reduced level of controlled risk and required competency should leave plenty of space to work real-world leadership skills examples into the six meetings, Training Hike, and Training Overnight without making the PLC meetings too long. We skipped the training hike, and instead scheduled the training overnight every three months on a regular basis. We camped Friday night and returned home late Saturday afternoon. The Patrol Leaders rehearsed the skills scheduled to be taught at the next three campouts. For instance: 1) A fishing five mile hike, 2) A hot lunch campfire skills hike, 3) A cold lunch woods tools hike to clear brush. Patrol Leaders weak in a particular skill could be brought up to speed, or in some cases a Troop Guide would accompany his Patrol (the Troop Method). Ideally the hikes were done round-robin: Patrol A doing the fishing hike the first month, and the campfire skills hike the second month; Patrol B doing the campfire skills hike the first month, and the woods tools hike the second; and so on so that each Patrol was always off to a different location. But the perfect remote fishing lake was at one camp, the Camp Ranger with saplings to clear was at another camp, and the camp with enough remote multiple fire rings to allow each Scout to build his own fire was at a third camp, making for Troop Method creep if we weren't careful.

That is precisely the problem: The question was about tools for understanding leadership and how to train to that understanding. Everyone seems to agree that the potato and cookie exercises are lame, but because the goal of Patrol Leader training is to "understand" the nature of leadership (rather than how to actually "lead" a Patrol into the backwoods), we play sheltered "skits/role-plays/games that communicate simple leadership concepts," or just sit them down in front of a TV. As opposed to physical outdoor role-play in what Green Bar Bill calls a "Real" Patrol. Since you are one of the very few leaders here who have actually used Green Bar Bill's Patrol Method and/or Baden-Powell's minimum standard of 300 feet between Patrols, I'm asking if you have ever taught "servant leadership" on hikes and campouts using anything similar to Hillcourt's "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol"? If you described that process, you would be the first person in the history of "leadership skills" to relate them to "Real" Scouting.

What do leadership books, power point presentations, old VCR tapes, skits, games, cookies, and potatoes all have in common? Servant Leadership cheats Patrol Leaders unless it is a byproduct of learning how to take a Patrol out on patrol. Patrol Leader Training is to physical distance, as BSA Lifeguard Training is to water.

Bob Newhart tapes as an alternative to distance-based Patrol Leader Training, water-based BSA Lifeguard Training, or both?

Maybe as an alternative to getting wet during BSA Lifeguard training?

So if we do to BSA Lifeguards what Wood Badge did to BSA Patrol Leaders, the reasons for taking the ultimate lifeguard course will be the same: fellowship, networking, personal growth, and a chance to learn "leadership skills"?

Maybe as a replacement to BSA Lifeguard training?

Some of our Troop's natural leaders are in ROTC. Boys tend to think of them as cool. School work Scouting and office dweeb "leadership skills"? Uncool. The very first page of my Boy Scout Website was a photographic comparison of a BDU with the official dress designer uniform of the time: http://inquiry.net/uniforms/bdu.htm Around 1997 I switched my support to nylon zip-offs. Wood Badgers from around the country were so incensed at my advocacy of the uniform as an outdoor method, that they called my local Council office to report me. Whenever I stopped by, the secretaries would say "Those people from the Internet have been calling us about you again!"

Here is Green Bar Bill's "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol:" http://kudu.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm This is the nuts & bolts Patrol Leader Training course we take away from Boy Scouts so they have time to learn deep and meaningful "leadership" concepts from milk and cookie games. By the third session, Patrol Leaders use Patrol Meetings to plan and then execute Patrol Hikes without adult leadership: http://kudu.net/patrol/green_bar/3rd.htm And, of course, the course ends with a Patrol Overnight: http://kudu.net/patrol/green_bar/6th.htm If you have natural outdoor leaders, they may enjoy Green Bar Hill's "Real" Patrol Method more than watching "leadership" on TV. Just sayin'

I am not currently a member of BPSA, but I served on its original Policy, Organization, and Rules committee (PO&R: the document that gives a Traditional Scouting program its structure). Much of the BPSA's material is taken from my Traditional Scouting Website: http://inquiry.net/traditional/handbook/ Baden-Powell's Scouting is radically different from what Americans call "Scouting" in two ways: I) PROFICIENCY versus ADVANCEMENT: A. B-P's badges are called "Proficiency Badges." They reflect a Scout's "Current Proficiency" (as opposed to past achievements). B. Proficiency Badges are either Outdoor Skills or practical Public Service Skills such as first aid (as opposed to school subjects). C. What Americans call "rank" badges are tested in B-P Scouting through the adventure of significant solo backwoods "Journeys" and "Expeditions" (as opposed to indoor, adult-run Scout Spirit requirements, Scoutmaster Conferences, and Boards of Review). D. "Qualifying Badges" (the required badges, all outdoor) are retested every twelve (12) to eighteen (18) months (as opposed to our "no retesting" one and done, also known as "Once an Eagle, Always an Eagle"). II) PATROL SYSTEM versus PATROL METHOD: A. B-P's Patrol System Patrols camp a minimum of 150-300 feet apart on Troop campouts. B. In common with Green Bar Bill's "Real" Patrols, a Patrol System Patrol is required to hike on a regular basis (and sometimes camp) without other Patrols or adult leadership. This is where the Patrol Leader (not a "Troop Guide") teaches and signs off on Scoutcraft skills. C. In the Patrol System, a Patrol's most gifted natural leader serves as Patrol Leader for as long as possible because of i) the controlled risk involved in Patrol Hikes, ii) actual competency needed to teach and test all Tenderfoot through First Class skills, and iii) because the Patrol Leaders actually run the Troop (as opposed to the adult Troop Committee, Troop SPL, Troop ASPLs, Troop Guides, etc.). D. The purpose of a Patrol System Patrol is Patrol Adventure (as opposed to learning "leadership skills"). Have you had a chance to look through the Pathfinder handbook you ordered? Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net/patrol

Prissy by design since 1965, the year that William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt retired, leaving the BSA's top office managers in control of the program. They switched Scouting's icon from outdoorsmen to themselves.

In Hillcourt's "Real" Patrol Method, the PATROL Leaders elect the SPL. In Leadership Development's Troop Method, the TROOP elects the SPL. In the Real Patrol Method, the PATROL Leaders always outnumber the SPL in the PATROL Leader's Council. In the Troop Method the TROOP SPL's patronage positions, such as the TROOP ASPLs and the TROOP Guides, can vote against the Patrol Leaders. Maybe the word "Troop" has been Program Neutered out of NYLT, like the Patrol Leaders were neutered out of the "Patrol Method" presentation of Scoutmaster-specific training?

OK, Basementdweller, I agree. I admit I have nothing to contribute to your situation that is even remotely helpful. That is because when I was Scoutmaster, my Troop ran along the same lines that Stosh describes. I encouraged each Patrol's most competent Scout to stay on as Patrol Leader because he was important. I never let an incompetent Scout leave a Scoutmaster Conference without finding a good POR for him. A Patrol election occurred only when a particular Patrol actually needed a new Patrol Leader, and (in the first few years of the Real Patrol Method) only after I met with them to discuss the qualities of a Patrol Leader necessary for me to allow them to camp at 300 feet, or conduct Patrol Hikes without my adult helicopters. Sometimes a Patrol Leader would return from NYLT preaching the Troop Method and, against my advice, the PLC would arrange a Troop-wide popularity contest, thinking that the little kids would elect one of them. However, even when that resulted in a loser SPL like you have now, the competent Patrol Leaders would plan the campout. When Patrol Leaders run a Troop, that is their job, not the SPL's. Not even remotely helpful, Kudu http://kudu.net/patrol

KDD, Your reply is why I take such a dim view of "leadership" theory. When any leadership enthusiast first hears about Baden-Powell minimum standard of 300 feet between Patrols (never in BSA training, of course), he or she rejects it with the same objections as you: 1. It is impossible to space Patrols 300 feet apart in 21st century Boy Scout Camps. 2. A historical analogy to prove that if Baden-Powell were alive today, he would have based Scouting on anything but camping. 3. An apocalyptic vision of parental objections. 4. A reference to fecal matter. 5. The assumption that unlike sports (which are all still based on questionable life-skills like bouncing or kicking a ball, or hitting it with a club), we must replace the elements of B-P's game with modern "leadership skills" because most boys will spend the rest of their lives sitting in a cubical. Leadership theory appears to be inherently anti-Patrol, from local Roundtables to the BSA's top professional millionaires. In fact, leadership skills are so predictably anti-Patrol that they deserve an anti-Scouting acronym formula all of their own! My guess is that this is because of POR requirements: Even if by pure chance your Scouts elect a responsible Patrol Leader, he will be gone in six months and replaced by the next popularity contest winner. Therefore it is safer to stick to a Webelos III program where adult helicopters keep Patrol Leaders on a short leash as they oversee Troop "Controlled Failure." There are Troops in which leadership theory does not replace the Real Patrol Method. In my mind's eye I picture Barry's SPL power-pointing the Forming--> Storming sequence of a new Patrol Leader's first experience at 300 feet, or diagraming a Leading Edge analysis of a eight-mile Patrol Hike without adult supervision. But such "Real" Patrol Method Troops are the exception that proves the rule. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Yeah, Basementdweller, I haven't been active here in a while. For some reason I thought that we were in general agreement on most issues, so my 26 Librarians post would give you a helpful perspective on the destructive force of POR requirements that you are now witnessing. I swear that I would not have intruded on your thread if I had known that for years now, you have seethed with anger whenever I suggest Baden-Powell's minimum standard (yes, minimum standard) of 150-300 feet between Patrols when they camp as a Troop. I guess your admonition to "SEEK TRUTH" does not extend to, um, trying the Patrol System, huh? Otherwise why did you duck the two most practical questions in Scouting: How far do your Patrols hike without adult helicopters? How far apart do they camp as a Troop?

My question would be: Why Scouting? Why not do to high school football what Wood Badge did to Patrol Leaders: Replace position-specific training with corporate "team-building exercises"? You know, trust falls, game of life, diversity awareness, etc. When did Baden-Powell, the inventor of Scouting, ever say the purpose of the Patrol System is to "develop leadership skills"? Back when Scouting was popular (before the invention of "Leadership Development"), the purpose of a Patrol was to go out on patrol, just as the purpose of most games is to move a ball through physical space (say 300 feet). Likewise, physical space is why learning Scoutcraft Skills was once an adventure. If we did to sports what Wood Badge does to the Patrol Method, just think of how angry the nation's basement dwellers would get at guys who point out that when soccer and football were popular, the end zones were 300 feet apart! "300 feet 300 feet 300 feet........ You just keep spouting the same crap year after year after year...... I get it. Just not very helpful" OK, perfect example. After Green Bar Bill retired, Boy Scouts was run by millionaire office managers, so they added office management as a "Method" of Scouting. If Boy Scouts had been run by the Boy's Life editorial staff, then they might have invented "English Grammar" as a "Method" of Scouting. Think of how much more useful Scouting would be to your son (and all boys, actually) if he had to write essays for six months to get "credit" for advancement. Let's turn English Grammar into a "Method of Scouting" and force it on boys like we do to Basementdweller's SPL.

Do you treat your SPL this way?

How often do your Patrols hike without adult helicopters? How far apart are they when you camp as a Troop?

The dead horse here is "Leadership Development," which began to replace Hillcourt's Real Patrol Method in 1965 with the imposition of position of responsibility requirements. Leadership Development kills twice: First by forcing into PORs, boys who have no interest in being a "leader," and second by encouraging your natural leaders to make room for others once their six months are up. The solution is obvious. 1. Purchase 26 Troop Librarian patches. 2. Ask your SPL to appoint one Troop Librarian for every letter of the alphabet. Especially valuable are letters for which you have no book titles. They teach the very highest form of leadership: Innovation (the ability to package nothing as something). 3. Announce that everyone in the Troop now has a "POR" for advancement. 4. As it becomes obvious that certain jobs need to be done, your natural leaders will step up. Baden-Powell called that "Practical Christianity." Teaching boys to extract compensation for stepping up is like paying them to love Jesus. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net/

See the lovely circular logic? All that is required is a belief in God - the BSA refuses to define what constitutes belief in God. That is for the scout and his family to decide. As for A Scout is Reverent, I believe this is the current wording: This doesn't define what God is either. So if someone belongs to a religious faith that doesn't have a god (like many forms of Buddhism) or require a belief in a god (like Unitarianism), who believe they can do their "Duty to God" as their faith defines it, the BSA appears to say they can be members. Which is the situation the OP was in. So to tell the OP: "stop whining, it's all their in black and white" is incorrect. Presumably because a belief in "leadership skills" constitutes belief in supernatural forces! Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm