KoreaScouter

Semper P, you silver-tongued rascal! I'm printing that and putting it in my SM Minutes folder for solemn delivery leading up to elections.

thanks!

KS

I recommend getting the BSA pub on dealing with Scouts with disabilities. It's been revised recently, and while it doesn't pretend to give all answers to all questions on all disabilities, it does give a unit leader a great place to start.

Specifically, it advises unit leaders to conference with the parents regarding the boy and his disability. Follow the guidelines in the pub for the conference, and you'll be well on your way to understanding what his capabilities really are, and can begin to build an alternative advancement plan for him, if warranted. The conference should also spell out what the unit's expectations are, the family's, and the boy's. There shouldn't be any unreasonable demands on anyone's part. If a unit has to dedicate a patrol to keep a boy corralled, that's unreasonable.

The people you've dealt with so far at your service center may not seem to care, but I can promise you that if you keep pressing, you will find someone who does. Get past the gatekeepers if need be, and talk to the field director or even the Scout Executive. They care, but can only help if they know you have a problem.

Recent guidance from BSA is that they prefer that Scouts with disabilities be mainstreamed into regular units rather than clustered into "disabled units".

KS

And three-way tins at that -- those things are dogs!

KS

Yep, I saw it in the catalog too. My question is, why NOT the uniform shirt of the very immediate future?

KS

Amen to that. As far as I'm concerned, we should all wear what we're entitled to. For one thing, if I meet you for the first time and you're wearing your knots, I know at a glance which portions of the program you've worked with, if you're an Eagle Scout, and so on. In other words, it's an instant visual resume' -- if you're wearing the Webelos DL and/or Cubmaster awards, I know I don't have to teach you a ding-dong school on AOL and it's relevance to crossover...saves me some time. Second, a knot symbolizes a lot of hours of unpaid service; wear it with pride because you've earned it. Same for beads, OA flaps, etc. All of them can also generate curiosity among the lads, and you have their attention even if only momentarily.

There's countless thousands of us trench-level volunteers, most with very similar-sounding jobs. Our uniforms introduce us as much as a handshake and a greeting does. I know, if you look at the Scout Executive's picture in the front of the handbook, he's wearing just shoulder loops and a position patch. But you know what? That's all he needs to wear -- he's the national Scout Executive, for pete's sake! Anywhere he goes, he's got his posse doing the advance work, opening doors, and making sure everybody knows who he is -- his position does that for him. My shirt does my advance work, and opens the doors -- maybe only a crack, then hard work and common sense have to push it the rest of the way.

I also wear a patch vest on outings -- wonderful conversation starter. I can't tell you how many times I've felt that little "hairs standing up on the back of my neck" thing, to turn around, and there's a little guy reading the patches on the back of the vest. "That's right, little buddy, that's our Troop's Polar Bear award. Lemme tell you how cold it got at that Klondike Derby; why, we put out a cup with water in it the night before, and in the morning...".

How many of us who've earned our beads HAVEN'T had a boy ask what they were, so that we could explain B-P and the Siege of Mafeking?

C'mon, sew that stuff on and let the stories begin!

KS

I think it's a safe assumption that there are no Law MB counselors among this crowd...

KS

Thanks, Rooster, I saw it live. You got it right.

KS

(What software do you use?) Our committee keeps track of fundraisers using the fundraising module in TroopMaster. It doesn't do the treasurer's entire job, but does enable them to apportion fund raising proceeds to particular Scouts.

(What % of the fundraiser do your scout keep? How much goes into troop's general fund?) Depends on the fundraiser, and the committee decides that well beforehand. Sometimes it's 100%, sometimes less than that, sometimes the Troop gets it all (rarely).

(What is the withdrawal process?) Summer camp's a given, as are OA section conclaves. Any other withdrawals need a note to the committee; they handle them on a case by case basis. If somebody quits, the $$ goes into the Troop account. If they transfer, we send it to their new unit.

Hope this helps,

KS

We decided to form a VP with some trepidation; we could still smell the smoke from a failed attempt at a Venture Crew that resulted in only the loss of a good leader, 3 older scouts, and lots of bad and very recent memories. Nonetheless, our older Scouts needed and wanted an older Scout program. We had the same concerns about loss of leadership and "cliquish" behavior.

We didn't carve them out into a separate full-time patrol, but left them in their permanent experienced patrols. They serve in Troop and patrol PORs, but break out into a VP during skill instruction, and have done separate VP activities away from meetings. We don't let a VP activity conflict with a Troop one. They do have VP t-shirts, which they can wear in lieu of the regular Troop T if they want.

So far, it seems to be scratching their itch, they're staying involved with the Troop and their PORs, and there haven't been any conflicts I can think of...

KS

Have you checked the "Good Turn for America" Web site? They have ideas/suggestions, and have also posted letters from national organizations that have pledged their support for GTFA.

KS

I've been my son's Cubmaster and SM (twice). I like to think that unless you knew he was my kid, you wouldn't know it from watching either of us at meetings/outings. I don't follow him around, and he doesn't follow me around. I don't let him get away with anything the others don't, and I try not to hold him to a higher standard either -- although he does understand that as the SM's son, he plays a bit of a "barometer" role.

I'm not hyper-sensitive about avoiding the appearance of favoritism by deliberately deflecting conferences, counseling, and other tasks onto another leader -- but, that's a luxury I can afford because I don't show any favoritism. Who was it who said "...life is easy if you tell the truth, because you don't have to remember anything..."? Nor do I ask my ASMs to do the same with their sons. Keeping fathers/sons apart is not only unnatural in my opinion, but policing the whole thing would turn into an ice cream headache for me. Our ASMs are assigned program responsibilities by function rather than patrol, so by definition they have to interact with their own sons at various points...the artificial "handoffs" are not something I want to saddle them with.

At some level, if a leader thinks other leaders should avoid their own sons in the program for some "internal control" reason, then there's another issue going on here. I try to assume that Scouts and leaders are trustworthy until/unless they show otherwise. Then, I'll deal with the exception. Why do we collectively love to take something that should be simple and make it more complicated than it has to be?

KS

I don't think you can convince someone to get trained. That you need training has to hit you like Peter being smitten on the road to Damascus. Personally, I've taken all the training I could ever get, in a blatant attempt to make up for my lack of experience. Regarding other leaders I've worked with, I've tried all the arguments, including the verbal equivalent of smacking someone with a rolled-up newspaper when they do something hare-brained, that they wouldn't even have suggested if they were trained. It doesn't work. And, simply going through a training class doesn't mean that behavior will change anyway. That's internal, not external.

Don't get me wrong, we have plenty of leaders who care and put a lot of time into their jobs, as they perceive them. I read other forum members' leader horror stories and consider myself blessed. Most, though, are unwilling or unable to make the commitment to get training beyond YP and Fast Start. For the most part, they're only churning themselves, because we have enough people who have been trained to keep things straight.

Let's face it, we have two things not in our favor. One, our leaders are adults who are mostly set in their ways. In a previous council, we paid to send two guys to National Camp School in hopes the summer camp program would be better. They came back as self-anointed "pros from Dover", and did exactly the same things at summer camp. Go figure. Two, most adults don't consider BSA training as providing sufficient benefit for the costs of attending. If it takes more time/effort than a youth sports coaches' or officials' clinic, it isn't worth it to them becuase many parents see sports/Scouts/band/drama as co-equal extracurriculars, except the others don't ask for such a time commitment.

Semper P. is right on time: I agree with everything he said, and how. Online options would be great for removing obstacles. Recognition is very important -- I've been trying to get my District to offer incentives for RT attendance; coupons at local businesses, Scout Shop discounts, etc. Haven't overcome that inertia yet, but I'm still hammering away. Leader award and recognition processes are haphazard. I don't want to take the focus off the boys, but the way we recognize leader training and skills is a bunch of band-aids. Why isn't there a single leader handbook, with the leader award progress records in the back, and sections for Tiger through Venture and chapters on uniform/insignia, advancement, training (outlines for every course, except WB of course!), YP, Safety, etc.? Right now, I gotta keep 25 different books/manuals of different size and vintage to keep all this nonsense straight. And good luck finding the leader award progress records. But, I vent.

Relevant is HUGE. In my opinion, NLE should be our flagship course -- best materials, absolute best instructors, and no chaff. If a leader thinks NLE was a waste, you'll never get them back for anything else. I've taught NLE, and the bridge is a distraction -- we're dealing with grownups here, not a kindergarden class -- they get it without the gimmick. There's no way you can stay on time if you actually have the discussions you're supposed to have -- 3 hours for NLE is like one hour a week; makes you feel like a snake-oil salesman. I've had other leaders tell me their NLE instructor was a last-minute shove who read them the lesson and didn't follow the slides...but he did make sure they sang 6 iterations of "The Grand Old Duke of York" before a bathroom break! Calgon, take me away! For the Troop Treasurer whose contribution is running Excel and writing checks, songs and skits at training will ensure you'll never see them at any training again.

Whew! I need to take a breath. Sorry to run on, but I like this topic...

KS

That's a District issue, in my opinion. Since MBCs who aren't dual registered as unit leaders are registered only with the District, not with an individual unit, there's no other way to "recharter" them and cleanse your roster, other than getting some sort of commitment. I've seen it where MBCs get letters each November, asking if they want to continue -- please return this form in the enclosed postpaid envelope. Whether it's the MBC form, a letter, or an adult application, they all do the same thing, basically.

KS

Debate is healthy if done within bounds; it makes you think. When it degenerates into name calling, it can ruin friendships, and even worse.

Without knowing any of the people involved, I might suggest that you approach your adult leaders again, especially if it's getting un-Scoutlike. I would also suggest your Troop consider Communications and/or Public Speaking as monthly program features, and collectively learn to practice debating skills in a controlled manner.

good luck...

KS

Sounds like a control freak; had one of those in a previous unit, who didn't want anyone doing a single keystroke in TM except her. OK, fine. Here's what I need, and laid on my requirements for rosters, reports, and so on. To her credit, she kept up, and turned everything I needed. Still, it's a single point failure node, and not the optimal way to do business. (Besides, I'm told that as soon as her son earned his Eagle, she ran like someone was chasing her).

Currently, our CC runs TM and does the updates, then exports the files to me on my thumb drive. We've talked about going to TM on the web, so we can get more "real time" updates, but the inclination and opportunity haven't struck yet. As it is, we're no more than a couple days behind, so it works okay. Plus, he and I are the only ones who actually manipulate data in TM, so we don't have the same issues you do.

I wouldn't say the Advancement chair monopolizing TM prevents an SM from doing his/her job. In some ways, it can make it easier, provided that they're responsive and stay up to date, as ours was in my previous unit. If that's not happening in your case, you need to bring it to the attention of your committee chair, I think.

KS

Mine was the week-long, but it had to be, because it was in Okinawa, and many of the participants had to fly in from Korea or Japan. One round-trip plane ticket was bad enough, two would have made it too painful to go.

Our council does a week-long course, too...same reasons: transportation costs.

KS

I wouldn't put anything sensitive enough to warrant password protection on a web site. Ours is mainly a repository for forms, calendars, reference material, and general unit info for people looking for a unit. If you throw up too thick a firewall, it may keep people out who may not be unit members, but want to get to know you or just get contact info.

For unit specific stuff, advancement info, etc., you can always do PackMaster on the Web, separate from your web site, that allows people you identify to view, update, and work with that information.

KS

I would ask your friend if he's had an OA election team come to a Troop meeting, show the video, give the presentation, and hold an election. If so, he has an idea of what election means, and that OA is an honor camping society with cheerful service as one of it's foundations. If he knows that, and is still asking why he should belong, then he should probably decline if he gets elected...

KS

I'm also a relatively new Boy Scout Roundtable Commissioner; dual hatted as a unit level Scoutmaster. My predecessor gave me the 2-year roundtable plans, and a little continuity stuff. He didn't need a lot of books, since he was a long-time Scouter and RT Commish who was very knowledgeable. The first thing I did was ask my District Commissioner for anything he had that would help me. He didn't have anything, so I presented myself to the council service center, and they opened up their bookcase. I asked for copies of anything that had "commissioner" in the title, and they gave me an armload. Good luck.

KS

We have a group talk with all our bridging Webelos Scouts (SPL takes them aside) and with the parents at the same time (that's my department). Explain the differences between Cub and Boy Scouts, and what role parents play.

Importantly from my point of view: it's not like snapping a light switch on and off, and it isn't just mommies, either. What I do know for sure is that I've got enough work to do without trying to redesign families' relationships. In other words, I don't have a big enough ego to think I can "undo" what took 11 years to "do". I agree with the other posters who say that except for a few hard cases (who will not respond to our more-or-less subtle attempts at redirection anyway), these problems work themselves out within the first year the lad's in the Troop, and equilibrium settles in.

In a previous unit, we had a dad (our CC, actually) literally follow his son around at summer camp the entire week (helping him in the craft lodge, shouting tips at the rifle range, etc), and try to make dope deals with the counselors to enable him to complete at least ten MBs that week (you know, meeting during lunch, during free time, just turning in worksheets, etc). The camp director had to threaten him with ejection to make him stop. Plus, there was a spillover effect on the unit as a whole in the eyes of the staff. I had to bend over backwards the whole week to be conciliatory and non-confrontational, just to offset this guy. An extreme example, and the worst I ever saw.

When all's said and done, though, I'd rather have parents too involved than not involved at all. The former usually back away, but the latter never seem to step up at all.

KS

OK, I'm home from Roundtable, and have a chance to look this up. The Handbook says, on P. 61, under Complete your Board of Review: "Once you have accomplished all the Tenderfoot requirements, and have participated in a Scoutmaster conference, your Scoutmaster will arrange a board of review for you." That's exactly what I do.

If your unit uses a different technique to arrange it, everybody's comfortable with it, and it works for you, then that's fine as far as I'm concerned. I wasn't trying to start a controversy over this, just answering a question about multiple-rank BORs.

Can we agree to disagree and call a truce?

KS

The difference between our two examples (SM tells committee a Scout is ready for BOR, and Scout contacts MB counselor) is that in the case of the latter, the MB section of the handbook (starting on P 185) includes a checklist that tells the Scout to call the counselor. To my knowledge, no such requirement for a Scout to schedule his own BOR.

I agree with you SR540, there should be a single standard for TF through Eagle on this matter. We schedule Eagle BORs with our District Advancement chair -- don't expect Scouts to do that one either.

Barry: ultimately, adults do choose when Scouts are ready to advance -- our "gatekeeper" role is all over the program. My signature (or initials, more accurately) doesn't go in his book until he IS ready for a BOR.

I understand the "lazy" quote is intended to refer to a SM who has appropriately trained his Green Bars and ASMs, and now watches in detached, blissful amusement while they all perform their assigned or delegated responsibilities. Yep, we do that, too, and I do try to "manage by exception". The trick is recognizing when the exceptions are about to rear up, not confusing activity with achievement, and being able to distinguish between a SM who just looks lazy and the SM who really is lazy.

I also understand and appreciate the value in boys getting positive adult interaction. Between a NSP ASM, Advancement ASM, Program ASM, MB counselors, etc., they get plenty of that. If that's not enough, 30 seconds with the Advancement chair won't make much of a difference...

KS

"...shouldn't the Scout and not you, request a BOR?"

I don't know; the advancement requirement is to complete one. Somebody with a Handbook in front of them, what's the body of the Handbook say? If it's silent, then it's a unit policy, right?

As far as I'm concerned, the Scout is by default asking for a BOR when he completes his SM conference. Unless, there are Scouts who want a SM conference, but don't want a BOR -- never met one, though. To me, sitting back and silently waiting for a Scout to personally ask the committee for a BOR reminds me of playing Stump the Dummy. We do that too much, in my opinion. It's easy with adolescent boys, and can be entertaining in the same way that pulling the wings off flies is entertaining.

I don't quarrel with a unit leader who wants his Scouts to call the Advancement chair and ask for a BOR. I don't see what's gained by doing that, though...it seems like one of several techniques that gives the same result in the end. I do it this way because it allows me to run interference between the Scouts and the committee -- a few less moving parts for the Advancement chair. A few more moving parts for me, true, but that's okay...

KS

I've had several situations with Scouts ready for multiple BORs. Our committee normally does them a week apart, not for some artificial separation, but to give the Scout an opportunity to prepare for just one at a time. I can imagine a lad meeting three in one night, but that's a lot of pressure on him.

Our committee schedules BORs based on me telling them that a Scout has completed his SM conference. It's normally no more than a week or two afterward, but depends on them being able to assemble the board members (like most, our committee members are busy people). They try to include our COR (Eagle Scout and involved with the unit) and rotate the members so the same ones aren't doing it all the time. They can almost always "throw one together" since we always have 3 committee members at every Troop meeting anyway, but I find it's better when they have time to prepare and weren't planning to do part of their committee job at the meeting vice sitting on a BOR -- one or the other, right? Also, to do the BOR justice, we have enough time at each meeting for a BOR to meet with 3-4 Scouts max. Sometimes I have more than that in the que, and they need to spread them out.

I like how our committee does it.

KS

I think we may be underestimating how resilient the boys can be. They deal with win/loss situations all day, every day, at school, at the playground, with siblings, in sports, and so on. I doubt that the boys who "melt down" at a PWD similarly melt down in all these other settings where they don't come in first. Then, why does this happen? It isn't the BSA intent to create this drama. It obviously isn't the committee intent, either. I look to the parents, who are likely building this expectation of "we're gonna kick tail", then if they don't, it's a huge disappointment.

You can't control parental behavior at home, so make sure the Pack PWD has as much fun and excitement built in for every boy, no matter how his car does. Concession stand, racing-type decorations (loaned or donated by auto parts stores and car dealers), PA system with music and sound effects, pre-race awards and photos including coupons, gift certificates, frisbees, whatever, for every Scout, drivers licenses, other activities while they're waiting to race, etc. When I put together PWDs, only the Scouts touched their cars once checked in -- they took them to and from the pit, placed them on the track, and retrieved them at the end. It's their car, let them race them.

Of course, you also have to stress fun, teamwork, sportsmanship, along with the competition angle -- not just on race day, but from the first time PWD is mentioned. One nice touch one of our DLs did in a previous council was to hold a car clinic with new families or tool-challenged dads, to help them build competitive cars.

I also believe that PWD is only one event in an overall quality Pack program that should include raingutter regatta, space derby, and cubmobile. If PWD is good, doing all these things is better.

KS