KoreaScouter

FB:

I am humbled in your presence; that was magnificent! Can I come and join your unit?

KS

I've also been involved in planning a few of these "MB days". Properly done, they're not "cheats". I've never been able to offer Eagle-required MBs at one of these, however. They're all too involved to get done in a day. Even some of the electives we've done require advance work by the Scouts. If you can find out through advance signups who your Scouts will be, you can assign them "pre-work", done on the meritbadge.com worksheets. They may still end the day with a partial, but they'll be off to a good start.

KS

Thanks for all your perspectives. I'd like to share a couple of my own.

First, regarding "deathbed Eagles" vs. younger Eagles. From what I've seen, the majority of the "deathbed Eagles" aren't where they are because they deliberately planned it that way. Does anyone honestly think that an adolescent boy reasons, privately or publicly, that he's going to wait to finish his Eagle requirements until he's nearly 18 because he thinks he'll be more mature, responsible, and better understand the concept of "giving back"? Please. Most of them got distracted by sports, girls, work, or peer pressure. Or, their motivation slipped, or the project seemed too big an obstacle. Or, they didn't have the family support they needed or their family circumstances changed, or they transferred to or from a weak unit. There's others, but the point is, boys don't consciously choose to race the clock...it just happens that way. And, if you ask them after the fact, and they're being frank with you, they will tell you that if they could go back and do it again, they would have done it differently and earned their Eagle sooner. That's what they've told me, anyway.

Second, the requirements are the requirements. Every boy is different, with different motivations, goals, interests. I don't question their motives or audit how they get where they are. In the same sense I don't brush off the 17-year old Life Scout who comes back after a layoff or after a couple years of "mailing it in", I don't accuse the Scout who earned his Eagle in four years instead of seven, of completing the "Cliff's Notes" version of the requirements. Nor do I attribute more or less virtue to one or the other. I mean, think about that for a moment. If you believe a boy can scam his way to Eagle, you're saying he successfully pulled the wool over the eyes of at least 21 MB counselors, at least one Scoutmaster, committee members, multiple BORs, the District Advancement chair, whoever he did his project for, etc., etc. Any adolescent boy who can pull that off deserves some recognition. I know I could never get away with it!

One thing you've reminded me of is that we need to take the long view here. The notion of "giving back" can mean next week, next year, or, perhaps, in ways that are not overt or immediate, but reflected in a life well led. Is that a bad thing?

KS

Bamboo is light, and strong for its weight. However, it is very prone to splitting, and throws off some nasty splinters. We used it in a previous Troop, but got other wood staves and eliminated the minor first aid situations...

KS

I've been both a Cubmaster and Pack Committee chair (in that order). When I was a Cubmaster, our Pack committee bought copies of the helps for all the DLs, and told them all that "this is how we do it". We encouraged Roundtable attendance, our District RT Commissioners had it going on, and DL attendance at RTs was excellent. They got great ideas, and took them back to their den programs in the month to follow. The pack meeting programs followed the helps, too. We had incredibly low attrition, great graduation rates, and Pack sizes consistently in the 80s -- needless to say, QU every year. When I was a Committee chair, we did the same thing, with the same results.

Maybe I'm a moron, but I just can't understand why any Pack wouldn't mandate use of the Helps by their DLs and Cubmaster. They tie the den programs together, link the monthly program to both Boy's Life topics and Roundtable plans, and get everybody on the same page. What's wrong with that?

Look again at the Helps. Within the context of the monthly themes, DLs have plenty of latitude and flexibility on how they carry out the program. They determine where and how often their dens meet, what their outing will be, and what their contribution to the monthly Pack meeting will be.

Let's remember that most of our attrition is in the Cub years. You've seen it; why does it happen? Usually related to inconsistent program, in my experience. And, it's usually our Cub DLs who have the least program experience, because their boys just joined in the last year or so. Given that, use of the Helps ensures a consistent program, makes DLs' jobs easier, and keeps boys in the Packs. Don't believe me? Ask your DC.

Here's another element, and I certainly don't mean this as a personal attack on anyone -- I'll apologize right now if that's how it comes across. In the same sense that we grow Scouts from Tiger on up, we do the same thing with our leaders. Show me a Cub leader now who doesn't use the tools he's given, doesn't see the value in a synchronized Pack program, and considers BSA guidance an intrusion on his personal liberties, and I'll show you a Boy Scout leader a few years from now who doesn't use the tools he's given, doesn't see the value in a synchronized Troop program, and considers BSA guidance an intrusion on his personal liberties. And, as we've all done in these forums as long as I've been around, we'll collectively bemoan this and wonder why this happens and where it comes from. Maybe we now know...

KS

I've had some situations where leader attendance was contingent on a younger sibling coming too, usually due to circumstances beyond their control. It's never been a distraction, and hasn't opened the proverbial pandora's box of everybody's little brother coming along either. Good vols are hard to find -- I'll gladly take them with or without strings. As far as the Scouts are concerned, I've found that they're amazingly tolerant, and will go out of their way to make sure the occasional "little guy" has a good time. Let's remember, most have little brothers/sisters, know how to relate to them, probably have some sibling care responsibilities at home, and as Scouts, they're expected to live the Oath and Law -- that's what we expect, right? Well, that's what they're doing. While we're at it, maybe we should show a little more Scout Spirit as adults, if we have a habit of digging in our heels, folding our arms, and saying "no siblings!". Come on, does it really constitute "the end of the movement" if a leader has to bring a 9-year old brother along?

Kittle, without knowing you or your son, my hunch is that this is problem you'll only have once or twice. After his first campout or two, he'll realize he doesn't need you there to survive, and will find a way to diplomatically "uninvite" you from future ones. Trust me, I've seen this more times than I can count. One of the human factors with adolescent boys that you really can't control, is their desire for independence and growing identification with peer groups, and less dependence on family members for companionship and identity.

KS

Your thoughts & experiences please.

Scout earns his Eagle, then makes himself scarce. I mean, "put his picture on a milk carton" scarce. I've seen this twice now, in two different units. Two random events, or is this more common than I thought?

I think we collectively do a pretty good job in our Eagle COH ceremonies of characterizing the Eagle rank as a "commencement" (...you are a marked man, etc...). Yet, in these two cases I've witnessed firsthand, the lads see it as a "graduation" (...I'm done and it's time to do something else...or nothing else...). In my SM conferences, I try to paint Eagle as an important, but intermediate goal in what I hope will be a lifetime of Scouting for them. Obviously, my hope in doing so is that they won't "unplug" after their Eagle COH. In most cases, it's worked. It's the exceptions that have me wondering.

I'm leaving out the "deathbed Eagles" who complete their BOR a week before their 18th birthday -- they're gone no matter what. I'm talking about the Scouts who have a good 2-3 years left after they earn their Eagle.

Have you seen this phenomena? How prevalent in your experience? Does this reflect more on the Scout, or on the unit? What more can we do to prevent it? Is it at least partially inevitable, given other pressures such as grades, SATs, the "fumes"?

KS

It's just a number, unless it isn't. If there's some particular tie-in with a CO, for example, such as VFW post # or something, then it's not just a number. In Far East council, the unit numbers are allocated in blocks by District. That can get unwieldy in a large Council, or in those cases where councils consolidate...then whaddya do?

Sometimes the number really means something. We have a Troop 1 here, chartered to a an historic private school. I'm told they were the very first BSA unit organized in Hawaii -- those guys wear 90-year tabs below their CSPs...if anyone deserves #1, it's them. Beyond that, I can't see the number having much significance, except to the members of that unit.

KS

Reading the history in books is one thing - standing on the Yorktown redoubts, walking Duke of Gloucester street, and seeing the same thing from Jamestown the original settlers saw (okay, the nuke plant wasn't there then) is another thing altogether.

I usually hesitate to mention what an absolutely fabulous town Williamsburg is; I don't want it to get too crowded or expensive before we get there! No place better for a college football game than at W&M in October, too. There's one home game every season they let Scouts in if they're wearing their uniforms -- what a day. Man, I'm homesick...

KS

I should probably give another example from my experience, and an admonition. Okay, the admonition first. Assuming the leader needs to go, if you're leading the coup effort, I hope you're willing to step in and take their place.

Now the example. I was a pack Committee Chair, and the Cubmaster was mailing it in. Not isolated examples, but repeatedly. I went to see the guy, and he admitted that he was overwhelmed at work, and bit off more than he could chew. He just couldn't bring himself to bow out, since he volunteered. He was relieved I came to see him. The other shoe is that I got to be the Cubmaster, too, for about a month until we found a permanent replacement.

Ditto for our treasurer. The guy wasn't coming to committee meetings, wasn't making deposits, wasn't writing checks, wasn't doing anything. A real head-scratcher for me, 'cuz I knew the guy as a youth soccer coach, and he wasn't a bum. So I called him, and he said he never volunteered for it, but it was handed to him by his predecessor at work, who was the previous treasurer. Shocked, I apologized, and was the treasurer, too, for a couple of months...

KS

Ditto to those who say "recharter time"...unless there are safety, YP, or criminal issues involved. That's the great thing about this; it's "self cleansing". Everybody has to re-up every year, and your committee can opt not to, in the case of a problem adult...

KS

Ditto to those who say "recharter time"...unless there are safety, YP, or criminal issues involved. That's the great thing about this; it's "self cleansing". Everybody has to re-up every year, and your committee can opt not to, in the case of a problem adult...

KS

We use the 20 lb propane cylinders for car camps, with the lantern on top of the tree. The propane stoves can be fussy; one speck of dirt and we need to do meatball surgery on them. When we backpack, the lads bring their own backpacking stoves; they're a hodgepodge of white gas and canister. My last troop had a mix of white gas and propane. We usually took the propane stoves, and they worked fine even in Korea in January...and that's as cold as a penguin's posterior.

We have storage issues with white gas we don't have with the propane cylinders.

To me, it's a matter of preference. I know Scouters on Oahu, native Hawaiians, who have NEVER cooked at camp with anything other than Kiawe wood (mesquite to the mainlanders). When I was covering Dutch Oven cooking at a recent District RT, and talking about what each charcoal briquet was equivalent to in degrees, I was getting funny looks from my beloved Hawaiian brothers, who have never used the stuff and it was completely outside their lexicon. I was again reminded that this is a big world, and that many of us wearing the same uniform have completely different experiences.

KS

Well, if the skirt were part of the official uniform...

KS

Patrol cooking is one technique to teach and reinforce teamwork, and attention to detail. But, it's only one technique. There are many others, and they should all be used in some sort of balance. I think the BSA emphasis on cooking is where it needs to be -- part of the overall advancement requirements for First Class, and Cooking MB as an elective. In out Troop, our emphasis on patrol cooking mirrors BSA's. If we thought we needed more, we'd have more.

I also happen to like the recent Cooking MB requirements change to include home cooking as well as patrol cooking.

Just my opinion; I could be completely wrong...

KS

I insist that little KS refers to me as Supreme Allied Commander...just kidding, relax. I'd feel like a horse's petoot if he called me anything other than Dad -- it's the most important job I have; I want full credit for it! I try to treat him like any other Scout though; I like to think that if you watched our Troop for a while and didn't notice the family resemblance (poor kid), you'd never know he was mine.

The rest of the lads call me Mr. H...

KS

Some of my absolute best Scouting memories (as an adult, alas), are from the Jamestown/Williamsburg/Yorktown area. We've been to re-enactments at the battlefield in Yorktown, which is still virtually unspoiled from how it was 225 years ago, hiked all 26 miles of the Colonial Parkway between Yorktown and Jamestown, and my kids have gone on both school field trips and Scout outings to Jamestown.

We love that area, are Heritage District/Colonial Virginia Council alumni, and if Mrs. KS gets her way, that's where we're putting down roots when I retire from the Air Force...

KS

Okay, I'm watching out...

...Hmm, still nobody here but us Hawaiians (even transplated ones)!

KS

I think the mess hall vs. patrol cooking at summer camp is a matter of the Troop's preference, and their needs.

We patrol cook at our monthly campouts and district camporees. In my last district, we did mess hall meals at summer camp for several reasons, mainly food purchase and storage capabilities at the army training/exercise area where our camp was. It worked out okay, but you had to know going in that your Scouts weren't going to complete cooking advancement requirements at summer camp. We just made sure it was done as part of the Troop program.

In Hawaii, the Maui council summer camp is (or was a couple years ago anyway) all mess hall meals. Gave the boys more time for swims, archery, rifle, and MBs. The tradeoff again, is that you have to complete the cooking requirements in another setting. That, and you don't have any leftovers in the camp site for a late night cracker barrel, etc.

At our Oahu council camp, they're doing mess hall lunches this year for the first time in my memory, with patrol cooking for breakfast and dinner. I've had informal conversations with the staff, and they'd like to go to all mess hall meals. Their primary rationale is a reduction in food costs due to less food waste and spoilage.

Again, if your unit wants and needs patrol cooking at summer camp, then by all means go to a camp that allows you to do that. If your Troop gets enough patrol cooking throughout the year, and/or you want to attend a camp that offers mess hall meals, then attend a camp that feeds in a mess hall. The only reason I'd think mess hall meals were a mistake is if your lads need patrol cooking experience, and you didn't make sure they got it.

You know, there are large and small Troops, backpacking and car camping Troops, Troops that gear their annual program toward HA, or are church-chartered and service-intensive, to name just a few. Any of us can make a list as long as our arms that highlight differences between units. It's all good if they're using the aims/methods properly. I happen to like dutch ovens and family style scratch cooking; I probably woudn't be happy with a backpacking troop. I think the bottom line is to join a unit whose program tendencies match your interests.

Nothing in any BSA literature prescribes a policy on body piercings, and doesn't give unit-level discretion on it either. So, it's a parental issue. If the parents allow the earring, we bite our lips and press, no matter how we feel about it personally. One of my lads was at a meeting recently with a diamond earring the size of a peanut M&M. When he said he needed to get cracking to pay for summer camp, I quipped that he could auction his rock on E-bay and pay for the whole Troop. He leaned toward me and said quietly, and seriously: "...It's not a real diamond, Mr. H", as if I actually thought it was...classic moment.

For the record, I've told little KS he can have exactly as many tattoos and body piercings I have, which is of course none. He laughs about it, because we both believe that piercings are something girls do, and tattoos are...well, "ungentlemanly".

Bottom line, the unit that told him to remove his earring doesn't have a leg to stand on. If they left the unit, it wasn't just because of the earring comment, in my opinion. It was that they saw the earring comment as a symptom of a deeper problem; they may be right.

KS

For patrol realignments, I'd let the lads determine that. I've seen it done twice in units I've been with, and it went more smoothly the second time, when the boys actually did that "list six boys you'd like to be in a patrol with" tool that's floating around out there. In my opinion, much better matches that way.

Regarding advancement and whether we should care if they earn Eagle or not, I think we should, of course. Not to populate a Troop "wall of fame" or anything, but because if we're doing this right as adults, then the organizational skills, ability to set goals, attention to detail, and leadership, among other things, will result in more of our Scouts reaching Eagle. In other words, use all 8 methods consistently, and you won't have to care if they earn Eagle; it'll happen anyway, for those boys who are inclined to do so.

I guess I don't really understand t487scouter's basic premise/question. If we do what we're trained to do, the Troop's monthly program is designed around a program feature; the meetings reinforce it, and every TMP has advancement opportunities inherent in it. But, I think there's more than a grain of truth in the notion that he shouldn't have to "push it" -- that is, if the PLC is doing their jobs consistently.

Also, I don't see this as a false dilemma or an "either/or"...the boys will earn Eagle, OR they'll be great young men. I think we can have it both ways, right?

That said, I'm not evangelical about this, either. I'm there to help a lad every step of the way, and I make sure the opportunities are there. But, he has to meet me at least halfway. I make sure he has leadership opportunities; he needs to put in the effort. Ditto with service projects, MBs, participation, etc. We've all had the Scouts who hit Star or Life, then are unable or unwilling to make the commitment necessary to continue to Eagle. We can't pour the commitment into them; that motivation ultimately has to be internal, not external. It isn't easy, and it shouldn't be, with the significance we attach to the Eagle rank.

KS

Personally, I like the pamphlets as they are. They're sized right, and the level of info is right, too. Don't get me wrong, I don't object to even a paid BSA online subscription service that gave access to .pdf files of every pamphlet and pub, for reference purposes. But, for out in the field, doing the experiments, and so on, there's no substitute for the pamphlets.

I hope BSA never does away with the printed pubs. The military has quit distributing forms and pubs; they're all online and you print them yourselves. The cost of paper, ink, and binders really adds up after a while, and you're not getting a professional product either.

KS

KS

Whoever wrote that press release at National has not been near a unit, or a District registrar, in a long time if ever. The release said that SSNs are not collected on youth members. Horsefeathers! Look at the current youth application, and what's right under the boxes for the lad's first name? You guessed it, the SSN! Even Jimmy Olson, cub reporter, will have the sense to get hold of one of our applications, if for no other reason to poke holes in National's statement. Doesn't anybody proof those things in Irving before they go out, or are they all too busy shrinking the cargo pockets on our uniform pants? (Sorry, still stinging over the $45 I shelled out last week for a new pair...had to work it into my rant)

KS

I'm reminded of an expression oft-repeated in my line of work: "Don't ask a question you can't stand the answer to...". In this case, if you ask a bureaucracy a policy question, the answer will tend to be the one that best avoids risk. I don't want Irving running my unit long-distance, and to their credit, I don't think they want that either. They're fun to bash, but by not strictly defining "active", they acknowledge that every unit is different, every boy is different, and it's best to let the unit leaders determine unit policy. I've related in other threads the example of a Scout in a prior Troop who was a very talented baseball player. He routinely made traveling and all-star teams, and I knew that during baseball season, I could stick his face on a milk carton, 'cuz his whereabouts were unknown. The day baseball was over, he was back and in it with both feet.

I don't use percentages for defining "active", I use my gut based on the situation, the Scout, and the other demands on his time. I don't wait until a Scout is in front of me asking for an SM conference to tell him he's "mailing it in" either. He's going to know as soon as I perceive it, because we're having a conference. Real-time feedback and communication prevents most misunderstandings.

Is that a seat-of-the-pants, subjective method that requires me to take each boy's personal situation, motivation, and abilities into account? Sure. But, as far as I'm concerned, that's what I got hired to do. If a committee handed me an Excel spreadsheet to fill in the boxes and apply a formula to determine "active", they don't want a Scoutmaster, they want an accountant.

KS

NIscouter:

Your committee members need to be swatted with a rolled-up newspaper! You don't say whether you're a Pack or a Troop, but I'm guessing a Pack, because by the time these adults have been around long enough to be on a Troop committee, they should "get it".

The uniform is not a hindrance, it's a method, just like advancement, leadership development, the outdoors, et. al. It cannot in and of itself drive boys away. In a few cases, the cost might (coming from a SM and a dad who just spent $45 on a pair of adult uniform long pants!), but there are "experienced uniform" options for that. I've said it before, this ain't a cafeteria, where you can take your choice of which methods you use. It's a blue plate special, where you get everything all rolled up together.

Consider the lad who your committee thinks is turned off by the uniform, and ask yourself a question. How old is he now, and was he turned off by it two years ago? Three? Five? What changed? The uniform didn't, and at their core, the boys didn't. What might change is their attitudes toward it, their self-esteem and confidence, and susceptibility to peer pressure and attention. But, aren't those all things that we're supposed to be helping them deal with? If your exit interviews tell you they're leaving because of the uniform, you can be assured it's not the uniform.

I can promise you this: if your committee members are repeating that claptrap, you can bet your boys are, too, at least the ones that live with your committee members. I know that as a high school-age Star Scout, they're not going to fall all over themselves to wear the uniform to school or church during Scout Week like they did when they were Cubs. But, if they're reluctant to wear it at Troop, District, Council, Lodge, and other Scout activities, I can only refer you the paragraph above.

Picture this: last weekend, little KS, our Troop OA rep, is at Section Conclave on the North Shore. They're supposed to be finished at 2 on Sunday, and I'm in Mililani running errands. He calls me on his cell at 11, saying they finished early, and can I pick him up. I'm basically halfway there, so I scoot up in my gym shorts, Hawaii Air Guard T-shirt, and slippahs. He's waiting, in full uniform complete with OA sash (didn't want to pack all of it, I suppose). Backpack and tent in the truck bed, and him in the cab. I offer to stop at the Starbucks in Foodland at the bottom of the hill and get him a Frappucino -- of course he takes me up on it. We walk into the shop and into a mid-day Sunday crowd of surfers, beachcombers, swimmers, hangovers, and other assorted liberal Bohemians -- what you might consider a tough crowd and not over-represented on FOS rosters. But, just when I thought he might be self-conscious, and we'd get at least a scornful look and maybe a snide remark, there was nothing of the sort. He was perfectly at ease, and if the crowd noticed his uniform, the only one in the shop, you'd never know it. Environment? Maybe, a little bit. But, I'm reminded of the old saying that life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to it. If we make uniform wear a drama rather than something we do and it goes without saying, than uniform wear will be a drama...

KS