KoreaScouter

CA_Scouter;

I've got a fillable Adobe pdf Eagle Application...PM me and I'll send it to you.

KS

We have written rules; the Scout Oath and Law. They're written everywhere, and the great thing about our rules is that every Scout repeats the whole set of them, every week at the opening of our Troop meetings. So, I know they know them...

I would submit that every situation can be addressed in one of the three parts of the Oath, or one of the 12 points of the Law.

Like BW said, BSA policies and the GTSS do in fact tell us what we need to do if a lad is caught with alcohol. That's an easy one. There will probably be situations that are not specifically addressed in anything in writing by BSA. That's what we're there for. Trying to make rules that cover everything is merely a way that people can hide behind a piece of paper and avoid accountability and standing up and saying "this is the right thing to do, because it's the right thing to do". Plus, it's a fool's errand, because you'll expend energy you should invest in program delivery trying to write the perfect set of rules.

I don't get hung up over Scout accounts either. Our committee, in their meetings, decides how fund raiser proceeds are apportioned to the Scouts. That's their thing; I don't let it affect how I do my job as SM...mainly because it has nothing to do with it.

I think the advocates of rules and bylaws who think they make things easier for them are actually making their lives more complicated. I've always found that the easiest thing is to stick to the program, keep it simple, use the tools you're given, and try to have fun.

KS

1. Surrender yourself to the staff. They know what they're doing, and everything has a purpose...even the things that seem out of joint or nonsensical.

2. Don't try to game it up front or crash the schedule by trying to psych out the course, writing your ticket before you get there, etc. The Law of the Harvest applies here.

3. You'll have classmates who will make you wonder why they volunteered to attend, or if they even volunteered at all. Be kindly and patient with them, as you would a feeble elderly relative; most will catch on, and when they do, they'll feel sheepish at best.

4. For me, and most people I know personally who completed WB, the "one big thing" (as Curly said in City Slickers) is not even an overt part of the curriculum. A light bulb will turn on over your head, you'll know why you're there, you'll know why you're in Scouting, you'll know how to play your role in your unit, and you'll understand your Scouts better than you did before. Again, for me, it was like Peter being smitten on the road to Damascus -- that dramatic.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have another matter to attend to (visual: KS swivels to the right because Pennsylvania is east of Hawaii). Eamonn, my esteemed colleague: I take great umbrage at your reference to the noble Buffalo as "lowly". Indeed, the noble Buffalo represents the spirit of our nation. Why, when nearly 200 million of them roamed the prairie from the Mississippi to the Rockies, their wallows provided surface water sources for other prairie wildlife, and their very presence contributed to the rich soils that now consititute our "breadbasket to the world" (you can easily figure out what they contributed -- careful now, let's keep this Scoutlike!). Settlers heading out west observed with curiosity the hard-working beavers, the cute little bobwhites, the tasty antelopes, and the majestic eagles, to name just a few. But, they reported fear, awe, and unconditional respect for the rumble of thunder that was vast herds of Buffalo, running for what seemed all day at speeds up to 35 miles per hour. Incredibly hardy, stoic, and resilient are the Buffalo, even under incredible hardship and endangered as a species as they are now. In keeping with Scouting's embrace of Native American cultures, customs, and philosophy, it's only fitting that Native Americans are leading the effort to rebuild the Buffalo nation from its current "tattered remnants". (Ahem, as I adjust myself)

As you may have guessed, I used to be...a Buffalo.

KS

Personally, I'd recommend doing it at a Roundtable or some other "grownups" event. As others have mentioned, most in attendance at a Pack meeting will have no idea what WB is about, and a beading ceremony alone won't clear the fog for them. Plus, it is supposed to be about the boys -- when I was a Cubmaster, the farthest I'd stray from that is when a hard-working adult volunteer was graduating or moving on, we'd briefly recognize them at a crossover, B&G, or Pack meeting, but my rule of thumb was "no longer than you can hold your breath". Besides, the Scouts and their parents aren't the WB target audience -- the leaders are. And, they should be at Roundtable, in an adults-only environment, where the District staff can do some real arm-twisting and use you as an example. Just my opinion; I could be wrong.

BTW, congratulations on completing your ticket! I remember what a great feeling it was when I received my beads...

KS

I'd try a few different things, depending on his motives (and you and he knows that better than anyone else).

Here's a few questions:

- What's your role in the Troop? If I were a casual observer at a Troop meeting or activity, would I be able to tell (other than a family resemblance) that he was your son or you were his father? Do you ride him like Zorro, or are you detached, or somewhere in between? (If he thinks you're too heavy-handed, the best way to avoid that discomfort may be to quit Scouting, in his mind)

- What's your Troop program like for older Scouts? Do you have a Venture Patrol, or take the older Scouts on "big-guy-only" events? Do older Scouts get perks due to their age and tenure, such as a later lights-out, or a big-guy-only cracker barrel? (Older Scouts need a different program than the new Scouts do, to stay interested and feel valuable. Look at their high schools -- very age and class-conscious, in terms of freshman, sophomore, etc. If the social structure wasn't that way, they'd create one that was that way. A teenager resents being treated like an 11-year old. Seek out ways you may be doing that, and change them.).

- What's your son's role in the Troop? POR? If not a Green Bar, what's his relationship with the Green Bars? Has it changed recently? (If he's a Green Bar, are his peers pulling their weight? If he's not, did he run for election and lose -- that can cause resentment, especially if the Scouts who won are not doing well.)

- Does he have a girl in his life (other than his mom)? (Always a competitor for his discretionary time. If the girl thinks Scouting is "dorky", he'll try to distance himself from it. A well run program can compete with almost anything...I haven't figured out how to overcome hormones, though. One thing I point out is my assertion that a girl who is forward-thinking and has her priorities straight sees much more potential for success in the Eagle Scout than she does in the C- slacker. Plus, you'll make many more points with her father, because as the father of a daughter, one of my default questions for a prospective suitor is "what was your highest rank in Scouting?" -- "none" is an automatic disqualifyer)

- Have you actually asked him why he's losing interest? Have you talked with him about your experience as an Eagle, and how it's helped you, with concrete examples? (Reflect until you get to the root cause...you might be surprised, but at least you'll know what to do)

- Have you considered "pulling" instead of "pushing"? In other words, the carrot instead of the stick. (Many parents I know use an incentive to encourage their sons to reach a goal. For example, Eagle first, then driver's license, or then the trip to Philmont, or then the notebook computer, or what have you.)

Good luck!

KS

This is amazing; my job just got tremendously easier! I had no idea I could do "social engineering" on their Scouting experience. And to think all along that I bought into that hackneyed notion that there were many different paths on the trail to Eagle, and each boy chose his own. No longer do I have to stand idly by as a Scout carries a Basketry partial for two years. Nor do I have to burn the midnight oil with the Advancement chair finding a Coin Collecting counselor just because a Scout wants to earn the badge. From now on, I can determine which badges they earn, and when they earn them. I feel as if a tremendous weight has been lifted from my shoulders!

Removing tongue from cheek, I see it like this: I make recommendations to Scouts on the best timing for certain badges, based on their age, maturity level, when it's most conducive for them to work on it (Oceanography? Why not do it at summer camp -- we'll be 5 minutes from Shark's Cove). If I think he's getting in over his head, I'll tell him so. But, the Scout bats last. If he wants to work on the badge, he's getting a blue card. If it's a badge we don't have a counselor for, we'll find him one. And, six months from now, if he was in fact in over his head, we'll talk about that too, and he might have learned a valuable lesson about over-reaching. All that, and in a completely non-consequential environment. Isn't that how we want them to learn these lessons, where it doesn't go in their permanent record? I don't see any sense in micromanaging their Scout careers just to shield them from a harmless mistake that doesn't impact anyone else. A blue card's 8 cents; if it's a matter of principle, you could ask him to reimburse the Troop if he doesn't finish the badge. Or, why not let him carry the partial until he's finished; he's got until he's 18, right?

KS

Hey, Eamonn, Bob, and UncleGuinea:

I'm left-handed -- do you guys mind scooting a little to the right on the log for me, so I don't smack you accidentally with my elbow?

KS

I was okay with this "suzzie" thing up until the description of entire Troops being given the Hester Prynne treatment, and we make boys walk the plank. What almost certainly started out as a neat idea to encourage boys from other units to get to know each other gets turned inside out by a knucklehead with a mean streak.

We've had this discussion before. In a nutshell, if we're supposed to be getting them ready for adulthood, why use techniques, such as forced singing for lost or misplaced items, that are not part of any organization I've belonged to in my adult life? Tell me, are there any situations where you work in which the corporate intent of a policy is to single people out for embarrassment? I didn't think so.

In my unit, any lost or misplaced item that is found, is returned to it's owner as soon as possible, and at our next assembly, we make a fuss over the person who found and returned it, not the person who lost/misplaced it. Call me crazy, but for us, that seems to reinforce the Scout Oath and Law better than an institutionalized game of "gotcha!"...

KS

He can wear his AOL patch below the left pocket, and his religious award above the left pocket if he earned it as a Cub Scout. Also, any service pins from his Cub years (with the yellow backing) are okay.

The best guide that's probably handy to you and him all the time are the uniform item placement templates inside both covers of his Boy Scout Handbook. If there's something he wore on his Cub Scout uniform that isn't on the templates, I'd leave it off his Boy Scout uniform!

KS

Official or not, they'd sure be a lot more useful...

KS

A Scout can begin working on MBs as soon as he wants to. I'd advise a first year Scout to strike a proper balance between MBs and advancement requirements through First Class, though.

As far as Eagle-required MBs are concerned, Camping is a great one to start with, for several reasons. One, many of the requirements are direct tie-ins with rank advancement requirements, so he's already working on it; he just doesn't know it. Two, he needs 20 nights for the MB, so he might as well get started. Three, the things he'll learn in the pamphlet will make him a better camper, faster.

As far as elective MBs go, I'd find out something he's already doing as a hobby, whether reading, a sport, taking care of a pet, collecting coins, what have you. Show him the MB requirements for whichever badge or badges seem to fit his hobbies or pursuits, and you'll see his face light up...

KS

Oren;

I've PM'd you...

KS

Poncho liners are awesome! Plus, they scrunch down to almost nothing when you pack them.

Hey Pack: You ought to consider coming to Camp Pupukea for summer camp -- you'd be surprised how many out of council Troops we get. Nothing like earning Oceanography by snorkeling in Shark's Cove on Oahu's North Shore!

(Aloha Council Oahu Service Center: 808-595-6366)

KS

North Face makes a pretty good 20 degree bag, full size, mummy style, synthetic, that you can find on sale for under $50. I've got three of them, paid $39 each a few years ago, and they're performing very well.

Just like with gas mileage claims, number of people who can sleep in a tent, and how many servings are in a single snickers bar, the temperature ratings of sleeping bags are also a very subjective undertaking. I'm with you, Snake, I'd go for a lower temp rating on the bag; you can always unzip it a little or lay on top of the thing.

KS

Many years ago, while working in the kitchen at a "major pizza delivery company" franchise store near college, I made pizza crust breadsticks before they were even a remote dream of the marketing guys at any of the majors. We would occasionally drop dough on the floor while "slapping it out". We couldn't make a pizza with it after we'd dropped it, but I knew the oven temp wuold kill anything on it, and I couldn't bear to throw it out. So, I began flattening it, cutting it into strips with a pizza cutter, and baking the strips on a pizza screen. Sometimes with cheese, sometimes without, and with a cup of pizza sauce to dip them in. I made these things and put them by the rack for the drivers and kitchen people to snack on. Believe it or not, it never occurred to me (or the store manager, for that matter) to suggest these things as a menu item. Now look!

KS

I'd like to clarify just one thing that Kwality stated in her post; that:

"Girl Scouts, unlike Boy Scouts, does not pre-emptively ask leaders (or scouts) about their sexual orientation."

Unless some councils are doing this on their own, BSA does not "pre-emptively" ask prospective leaders' sexual preference, either. It's nowhere on the adult application form, which, along with a check, is all we turn in. The only times this has become an issue is when the individuals make it one by making their sexuality a public issue.

KS

Proud Eagle, I think that's what meamemg is referring to -- the standard BSA curriculum from the SM Junior Leader's Training Kit. The options are only minor variations, such as changing the activities between sessions. Other than that, it's the same JLT we've been doing for 15 years at least.

I, too, have developed my own. It's based on the SPL and PL handbooks, gets the Green Bars into the books during training, and we use different activities, too.

I had the same problem many others have had: after a Scout has a few years' experience, he's been through TJLT several times and is getting realllly bored with it.

KS

I had the good fortune to get to know many Scouts and Scouters in the Korean Scouting movement when I lived there. They, too, are co-ed, from the youngest to the oldest. Their units are mainly organized in their school classrooms, and their teachers are also their Scout leaders, as an additional duty. When they camp, it's also co-ed, and also includes the youngest to the oldest. The one thing our lads were most surprised about is that at no time when we camped with Korean Scouts, did they do their own cooking...they brought moms who were detailed to do all the cooking. Needless to say, they considered our patrol cooking as near extraterrestrial behavior, and were even more surprised when they found out that what we cooked was actually edible.

For all the differences, we seemed to have much more in common. One retired SM who owned a Scout campground we used near a fishing reservoir was a Wood Badger, wore his beads proudly, and if you gave him a second, would show you his pictures from the 1991 World Jamboree in Korea, for which he was one of the key volunteer organizers.

Same thing in Japan, although my experience with SAJ is limited to my Wood Badge class in Okinawa with two SAJ Scouters. I got the impression talking and working with them, that our programs have more similarities than differences...

KS

ScoutMomAng;

It would appear that your SM is doing exactly what he was trained to do; he's keeping just-graduated WEBELOS Scouts together, with their friends, in a New Scout Patrol (NSP). It's been found that doing so helps with the transition, and with retention. The Scouts in the NSP will rotate the Patrol Leader & Assistant Patrol Leader duties, normally on a monthly basis, so that they'll all get a taste of what it's like to be a PL. What he should have told you, and maybe he did, is that he's going to assign a Troop Guide to the NSP. The Troop Guide is an older, more experienced Scout, who will play a very direct role in their training and advancement, and assist the "PL/APL of the month" with their leadership duties. If your SM has the available Assistant Scoutmasters, he will likely also assign one to work directly and primarily with the NSP. How long Scouts stay in a NSP is a little open-ended; it depends on how the Scouts are developing and when the SM/Guide/NSP ASM think they're ready and able to stand on their own in an experienced patrol

If your Scouts' families have their handbooks already, have them read page 18 -- it describes the NSP in similar detail, and should assure them that your SM is doing what he's supposed to be doing.

Good luck with the transition!

KS

Even if you wanted to (and I don't know why you would), you can't prevent mothers from attending anything they want to attend. It says so in the "Information for Parents" right on the youth application form. I tell all our parents at our "new family" conference that they're welcome at anything, any time -- no secrets and no exclusions. Trying to rewire any adult's personality, from a cranky old SM to a loving single mom, is a fool's errand that I'll have no part of. Any moms and/or dads who want to come camping or hiking with us are more than welcome. Some occasionally bring a bad habit or ignorance of the GTSS with them, but we discreetly deal with those exceptions when they present themselves.

I think it's only natural for a parent to be concerned and want to know what's going on, by witnessing firsthand if need be. In my experience, almost every one has been satisfied that we're going to return their sons with the same number of parts they left home with, and if they were concerned, they aren't concerned any more. Oh sure, there have been a few who were a little too "clingy" a little too long, but even they eventually settled down. The point is, no amount of ham-handed behavior on my part would have accelerated that by even one minute.

KS

John's original question was whether or not our Troops have written policies about parents counseling MBs.

We stumbled upon a great policy, which we use to administer the MB program. It works like this (I'll discuss the parent question a little further down):

- A Scout gets a signed blue card from his SM (me). I assign a counselor from the approved MB counselor list. The Scout, with someone else, meets with the counselor, then begins work. When he finishes the work, the MB counselor signs the blue card, the Scout brings it to me, I sign it, and give it to our Troop Advancement chair. She makes the rest happen. We found it in the SM Handbook, on page 125.

Now, about who to assign as the counselor. I look at the Scout's age, his address, my knowledge of the Scout, my knowledge of the counselor's preferences, and if any other Scouts are currently working with the same counselor on the same badge. For example, I know that some of our counselors prefer to work with just a couple boys at a time, while others are perfectly at ease with larger numbers at various stages of completion -- and they can keep it all straight. Or, I try to assign a Scout to a counselor who's within walking distance of his house if transportation's an issue. And so on, you get the point.

I pay absolutely no attention to whether or not the counselor is related to the Scout. If impartiality, or lack of it, were a concern of mine going in, that person wouldn't counsel ANYONE in my Troop -- I assign the counselors, remember? And, that's the key point here in my opinion. The internal control many are looking for is already built into the system -- you just have to use it!

If you think you're painted into a corner because you only have one counselor for a particular badge, and it's a parent, recruit a second counselor.

I'll tell you something, I just don't understand the drama surrounding these situations where someone is lamenting that a Scout skated through his advancement because he used one counselor for all his MBs. He didn't assign himself to that counselor 21 times, his SM did. And if the SM, and the committee, and the CO, and the MB counselor, are all in cahoots, then you have three choices as I see it. One, suck it up and drive on. Two, a discreet phone call to the District Executive or whatever level of the organization one thinks will be impartial. Three, change units.

KS

Like other forum members, I don't think this is a reason for hand-wringing. From what we know right now, the guy was drummed out as soon as he was discovered. Unless we administer lifestyle polygraphs to everybody, that's the best you can hope for.

I hope there isn't follow-on reporting that he did anything inappropriate with any kids...but, my experience tells me otherwise.

If there's anything positive in this, it may be that it's an opportunity to remind ourselves that pedophiles don't hang out at nursing homes -- they try to go where the kids are. Look around you: that's our units, and our Scouts (plus, in fairness, sports leagues, 4H, Boys/Girls Clubs, and so on).

This may draw some criticism, but I'm going to say it anyway. My opinion only, but based on over 20 years experience in law enforcement and related work. If you're sizing up people, women in general, and moms in particular, are a safe bet. In fact, I taught my kids when they were little, if they got lost, don't bother looking for a policeman -- walk up to a woman with small children and ask for her help. Men are a different story. I generally trust the dads who sign up with their boys, unless/until they exhibit adverse YP tendencies beyond simple ignorance of BSA policy (rule followers in general get extra points with me -- even such mundane things as "no paintball" or "no liquid fire starters"). The unknown guy who shows up at a meeting, no connection with the unit, who wants to volunteer? I tell him what we're all about, give him an application, introduce him to the committee chair...and I watch him like a Wal-Mart store detective. Again, without lifestyle polygraphs, what else can you do?

KS

Eammon;

I don't know, you tell me how much damage is too much. If one Scout is driven away from the program because of his PL's incompetence/attitude/performance, to me, that's too much damage. Moreover, the boy who left is going to tell his friends what happened, and now there's a recruiting spillover.

What's the tipping point? Every situation's different -- there's no cookie cutter template, and those judgment calls are what I get paid to make. They should be the very rare exception rather than the rule, but I don't think we should be afraid to do it when it's necessary.

What I fall back on is the argument (maybe mostly my argument, but no matter) that it's my responsibility to use all 8 methods to deliver the program. Just as importantly, to keep the 8 methods in some sort of equilibrium. For example, I'm a uniform advocate, wear it in full, and encourage everybody else to do the same. I don't send boys home if they're wearing jeans, however. I also believe in leadership development (the method we're focusing on in this thread, arguably), and follow all its precepts. That said, I don't allow the leadership development method to negatively impact the advancement method (if a Troop Guide is mailing it in), or the patrol method (if an SPL is planning in a vacuum and not involving his PLs). In short, when one method is not reinforcing the others, but degrading them, something's gotta change. The presumption is that I've done the training, conducted the conferences, given the personal attention, etc., etc., and it's not working.

I'm not trying to bash any lad, or paint with too broad a brush here. We've all seen the Scout who was out of his element in a particular position, but did well in another one. Or, the Scout who couldn't lead a dog to a Milk-Bone last year, but is doing a good job as SPL now. I think we have to keep it in perspective, stay flexible, and be prepared to do what we need to do. If I see a train wreck coming, and I can throw a switch to prevent it, I'm throwing the switch. We can still reflect and learn from the situation, without the consequence management that goes along with the wreck.

Just my opinion; I could be completely wrong...

KS

I too have encountered my share of new PLs (and even SPLs) who are, to put it mildly, not reincarnations of Audie Murphy. Before we throw in the towel, we need to provide them with an introduction to the tools they need to use (train them), encourage them and help build their confidence (trust them), and let them use the tools they've been given (let them lead). Importantly, they need to be able to do this in an environment in which well-intentioned mistakes are not punished, but seen and celebrated as evidence that the lad is doing something, even if it's wrong.

Troop-level JLT is absolutely critical, for all the Green Bars, even the ones who've been through it before. It's the first step toward building THIS leadership team to perform for the next six months, or however long your terms are. We issue either the PL or SPL handbook to the SPL, ASPL, Guide, and PLs -- their copies, they get to keep 'em -- we do this before JLT, and ask them to read as much of it as they can before coming to JLT. If the standard BSA TJLT curriculum doesn't cover what you want it to, or it's gotten a little "stale" for your unit, supplement it with your own material. We do, with lessons/discussions that get them into the SPL/PL handbooks. They don't memorize them, of course, but they have an idea what's inside, and where they can find it.

They're going to be rough around the edges, but you should see steady improvement as the months go by, with more confidence and fewer repeated mistakes.

All this assumes, of course, that the Green Bar Scout wants to be there, and is trying to put in a good effort. If he doesn't and/or isn't, no amount of training will make a difference. He may be the patrol "stuckee", under parental pressure (not always an entirely bad thing; some parents exert pressure for the wrong reason -- re-living their childhood vicariously through their kid -- but some exert pressure for the right reasons. Maybe we can start out by giving parents credit for knowing their son better than we do, then let 'em prove us wrong), immature, ran on an impulse not knowing how much work was involved, circumstances changed, or just in over his head.

Figure out which it is, and see if it's easily and quickly fixed. If so, great. If not, it's time to do something about it. Personally, I'll allow Scouts to make mistakes all day, until their mistakes begin to have a negative effect on the unit as a whole. And, I'm talking about retention, advancement, YP issues, etc., for the other Scouts in his patrol or in the Troop if he's SPL/ASPL. I'll repeat something I've said before: boy-led doesn't mean boy-led-into-the-ground. I'll engineer a change if it's obvious that's what's happening. If we start to tank as a unit, the DC and DE aren't calling my SPL, they're calling ME. I'd consider the same thing for a PL under the same circumstances. Every Scout in his patrol has a right to expect what they're promised in the front of the Handbook -- if they're not getting it because their PL is incompetent, change the PL.

I'll probably take shots over this, and I understand the argument that the Scouts should live with the choices they make. At the same time, we all know that there are recall provisions in most places -- remember Gray Davis and Arnold in CA?

KS

Three things:

I think unit-level read-only access to ScoutNet is important, and can coexist with unit-level Troop management software. If nothing else, it'll give unit leaders a quick & easy way to reconcile ScoutNet records with unit-level records on particular Scouts -- very important for Life Scouts knocking on the door to Eagle, and for any transfer Scouts regardless of rank. Of course, you can do that now, through District registrars, but they have a lot of demands on their time, and giving read-only access to unit leaders will relieve them of a lot of that "Can you check for me?" burden.

Second, I think BSA would be well-served to give some unit leaders (CC and Cubmaster/Scoutmaster, for example) bsamail accounts. So many things are done electronically now, and every unit leader I know communicates with his District staffers at least part of the time by e-mail. To be sure, there are issues involved with it, but I think they could be resolved.

Finally, for EagleInKy, read the BSA description of the Venture Patrol in the SM Handbook, then sit back and consider carefully how that would work out in your Troop. Are your experienced Scouts sufficiently squared away to "fly solo" without older Scouts in their patrols as senior mentors, for lack of a better term? If your older Scouts are reformed into a full-time VP, will that human dynamic be an overall positive, or a negative? How many older Scouts do you have, and would it necessitate more than one VP, or a single very large one? What do your older Scouts want to do -- you might be surprised.

KS