KoreaScouter

I'm with Compass and CaptKirk on this one, for all the same reasons. - SPL appoints his assistant, and those guys aren't dumb, ours generally appoint someone who has offsetting strengths and commitments (different sports, activities, and so on). - Some of our Scouts who didn't vote for the current SPL have the date of the next election circled on their calendars; 6 months out is palatable for them -- a year isn't. - Big human dynamic: ASPL to SPL: "They voted for me, not you, so...". I suppose if you have a stable troop with minimal transfers in/out, it might work. But in one like ours, where almost nobody's here longer than 2 years, we'd have only two or three candidates each election who met rank/experience criteria AND had a full year left before they move... KS

ASM1: One of your comments got my attention. You said ASMs don't conduct uniform inspections, the SPL does it. Is that your troop policy, or do you have something from BSA that drives it? I don't see anything about uniform inspections in the JL handbook duties for the SPL; is it in the new SPL handbook? My SM handbook says the uniform inspections (recommends 2 per year) are conducted by the unit commish and an "inspection team". We do monthly inspections, first meeting of the month, always conducted by ASMs; I lay one against each patrol. Using a checklist, it only takes about 10 minutes total. We do monthly inspections to help our patrols meet B-P patrol award criteria... If an SPL does it for a large troop, that could take an inordinate amount of time...how large is your troop and how often do you conduct inspections? Feedback, please; I want to make sure I'm doing this right. KS

I think we need to talk ourselves off the ledge here. Over the months, I've discovered there are several "hot button" issues that will guarantee agitated responses, all heartfelt. They are, in no particular order: - Athiests in Scouting - military BDUs with the Scout uniform - Homosexuals in Scouting - Are aluminum dutch ovens just as good as cast iron - Women in Boy Scouting - Should we salute in the activity shirt? - You're not using the patrol method, you !@#$%^& Maybe it'll help if we acknowledge that any posts on these topics will guarantee a rise out of everybody, and get ready for the salvos to start flying. Ever say something in excitement you didn't really mean, and if you could turn the clock back, you wouldn't have said it? I know I have...maybe I just did...or, as I said after our last camporee, when the water trailer ran low and we could only use water for cooking, drinking, and dishwashing: "I stink, therefore I am". KS

Agree that many catalog items are guilty of some or all of the shortcomings you mention. Having said that, except for the uniforms, where we have no choice, I say "let the buyer beware". I think it's incumbent on all of us to know what we want, and to know what the marketplace offers. For example, I steer Scouts away from the BSA hand axe (over $20), and toward the coleman (about $6). Many other examples, too. On the other side, the Silva starter compass in the catalog is the best deal going, and the only compass most of us will ever need. Underscores my point. Funny thing is, though, many items seem to be in the catalog strictly for nostalgia reasons, and not just in the historical section, either. And, they're in demand, too. For example, our council offered prizes from the catalog in conjunction with a recent fund raiser. Several Scouts in our troop ordered the hard, round, BSA 1-quart canteen...and all these guys have hydration systems already...sometimes I just scratch my head... KS

You gotta love that "send private message" option! OGE and I went direct; he sent me several, and I sent him patches and a Troop coin. Frankly, it was the only way I would have gotten them this far from Irving... KS

Not only is it a fairness issue, but if you look at the unit money earning application you have to file with your local council, there's no check box on it for "patrol" or "den", only "troop" or "pack". Troops do fund raisers, patrols don't. Troops have committees with treasurers, events/activities chairs, secretaries, etc., patrols don't. I don't mean to be overly critical, but it seems as if you want to "grandfather" your original patrol as the auction patrol. Well, what's the difference between allowing another patrol to share in that, and allowing a new patrol member in the "auction patrol" to share the opportunity? My recommendation would be to follow BSA intent and treat fund raisers as troop opportunities. good luck... KS

Hang on, Bob. I'm not going to do what some do and pick your post apart, but I do want to pick your brain. You said we're "more than welcome to share our thoughts" on uniform improvements. Great. With who? My DE, who will immediately draft a strongly worded letter to the Chief Scout Executive? You seem to have been involved in more than one national-level forum, and may have these guys' numbers in your rolodex (or PDA if you're a digital type), but most of us don't. How do we communicate this, and more importantly, how do we get feedback? Many posters come back to military uniforms, since improper wear of military uniform items with the Scout uniform is a recurring issue (I'm a full-uniform guy who thinks the BSA pants are comfortable for troop meetings, ceremonies, etc., BTW, and despite having a closet full of military uniforms, never mix that stuff with Scout uniform items). While it's true that the military has different uniform types for dress and field use, they are completely different types. BSA doesn't, however. While there are activity shirts, there are no activity pants -- you're expected to wear the dress pants (or shorts) with the activity (field) shirt. Huh? The military equivalent of the BSA uniform guidance would be to wear a BDU (activity)shirt with dress pants. I think most posters understand the inherent incompatibility. Here's another big comparison between BSA and the military when it comes to uniforms. Every branch of service has a uniform board that considers changes under the harsh light of public scrutiny, shares ideas with the troops by pushing them down the chain through command and public information channels, solicits ideas from the field, tests options in the field on real people, and ensures new items are immediately available for issue/purchase. Old items can be returned by sales stores, or marked down for quick sale. It's a rarity for a troop to complain about quality, fit, durability, or utility of his military uniform items; and troops will complain over just about anything. I don't think anyone on the forum is talking about a major redesign akin to the French Army getting away from red pants. Frankly, most posts I've read are okay with the basic look, but want a different trouser design for outdoors, better quality, updated materials. And, changes don't mean you have to get rid of your old stuff if you like it...once an official uniform, always an official uniform. I agree, you'll never make everyone 100% happy no matter what you do. But, based on a fairly large sample size (look around a district camporee), Scouts and Scouters don't like the official pants for outdoor activities, and many if not most don't wear them for outdoor activities. I don't think this can be a case of BSA digging their heels on as a matter of principle, as they're rightly doing on matters of religious belief or adult leader character/compatibility. Let's face it, most of us are used to being able to fill out a comment card or something, send it in, and get a direct response. How do we get our comments to Irving? Thanks as always for your insight... KS

Well, we all seem to be in violent agreement here. Now, how do we "unwashed volunteers" get a concern like this in front of whoever's got the authority to do something about it? I'm a long way from Irving, and the way BSA National makes decisions seems just a little more mysterious than electing a Pope... KS

I didn't know HA staffs mixed commercial outfitter/technical clothing with official BSA items. What more of a wakeup call do they need? I'm a traditional guy who believes in uniformity. But how about official options that include real cargo pockets, zip off legs, quick-drying material, and so on? Anything from Columbia's a good bet. Listen, being halfway around the world and frustrated by BSA's refusal to allow online ordering, I'd be content at this point to be allowed to order the existing stuff on the internet and get it in two weeks!

Agree wholeheartedly, and anyone who's smart enough to find and log onto this forum is also smart enough to re-do their Troop JLT. However, this is a little more complicated than merely "tailoring" the existing BSA Troop JLT lesson plan. Because the video and the games/activities are linked to each other, it's kind of "all or nothing". It would be almost like skipping the bridge building in New Leader Essentials -- the bridge building is all over the slides, so you have to do it. I guess my question's getting lost in the flood of great ideas to enhance Troop JLT (many of which I'm going to use, I might add). Doesn't the fact that there are so many troop-level mods to JLT suggest that there's something missing in our youth training architecture? The situation's different with the youth than it is with the adults. Over the course of 7 years, those Scouts may undergo the same JLT course as many as 14 times depending on their positions and how often their troop holds elections. Don't you find it curious that over 92 years, we haven't developed a "modular" approach to JLT that accounts for the realities we all know to be true, and incorporates some of the advances that are in WB21, NLE, etc., such as movie sequences as reinforcement, powerpoint slides, and so on? I suppose what I'm looking at is something similar to the flexibility allowed in program planning, and designed by National in Troop Program Resources with the 36 monthly themes, recommended activities, and troop meeting plans that you select from to build your annual program. Why not a similar effort to produce "Troop Youth Training Resources", a similar "smorgasbord" of training events, supporting materials, themes, and so on. Some would be suitable for post-event reflections, some for PLC training sessions, and some to build a modular (there's that word again) Troop JLT lesson plan based on the experience/maturity and needs of your youth leaders. Have any of you seen or heard of anything like this? Maybe those BSA resources are out there somewhere; I'm just not aware of them. I do know that I can't run the BSA JLT lesson plan again after we conduct troop elections in March. If I did, they may not catch me when I do the "trust fall" near the end of the lesson! KS

I have the supertool also. The locks work well, but on my model (may not be the 2000), you have to pull up another blade to "unlock" the one you have out. Have you looked at the Gerber Multi-Plier at all. I have one of those too, and you don't have to "butterfly" it to get the pliers out, and the locks on the Gerber are sliding things that involve less drama than the leatherman, in my opinion. And frankly, I'm no swordsmith, but I think the quality and workmanship of the Gerber is a little better than the Leatherman. KS

Great ideas all, and I appreciate them. What I hear you saying, though, is that you came up with these on your own. Unlike the progressive leadership training for adults (Fast Start, NLE, Fundamentals, Wood Badge), there is but a single national-level curriculum for youth at the unit level, and they're going to get the same one from age 11 to 17 unless we unit level Scouters make up advanced JLT curriculum on personal initiative. Can this be true? As a career military guy, I've had enough leadership classes, training, and practical lessons to design a JLT course as a follow-on to the BSA one, but I guess I'm wondering why I have to. In our ongoing effort to improve adult training, have we collectively left youth training out of the mix? KS

Amen to Bugle344! I have several Scouts who've been through JLT at various levels multiple times. They've figured out the 9 magazine trick, they can lip-sync along with the video, and I can't fool them with the lunch-bag trick any more. I'd do backflips if I could get a "next level" Troop JLT. I could always come up with speakers, tours, and whatnot, but I've always got the ghost of Bob White whispering in my ear: "...follow the program or else...". Just kidding, Bob. I've got to do JLT again in March after troop elections, and I'm wide open to suggestions, too... KS

As defined by BSA, the APL does not have to attend JLT, is not a default member of the PLC, does not have to attend PLC meetings, and his main role is similar to that of the backup quarterback...except when his team wins the super bowl, the backup gets the ring, too, even if he never took a snap. The requirement gives leaders some flexibility, though, in that it allows consideration for leadership projects the Scoutmaster selects. In the troop I server, the APLs are required to attend JLT, both at troop and District levels, they are PLC members, they are expected to attend PLC meetings, they're issued PL handbooks, and are basically on the hook as much as the PL is. After all, if the PL can't attend a meeting or outing, how can anyone expect the APL to step in smoothly if they haven't had the training, planning experience, and so on? What I've found is that there is considerably less drama if a PL is late or a no-show, since the APLs have the same tools and training as the PLs. Case in point, we had a PL who spent most of the summer with grandparents in the US. APL took the patrol to spring camporee, summer camp, an overnighter, a museum outing; led the patrol at troop meetings, service projects; and represented them at PLC meetings. Does he deserve leadership credit for those 2 1/2 months? Absolutely, and using the "leadership project assigned by the SM" option, he can get it. Now, I'll be the first to admit that the patrol scribe probably doesn't warrant Star leadership credit, no matter how well he maintains the patrol record book...he's not really leading anything. And, I would only consider APL suitable for Star advancement. There's a fair number of First Class Scouts who need meaningful leadership experience and not enough elected/appointed positions to go around. Granted, APL can be a "figurehead" position, but if you engage your APLs like we do, it's a different matter, and not a "freebie". Okay, I'm ready to get beat up... KS

When I was Cub Committee Chair a couple years ago, we bought the Piantadosi 4-lane track, and it was fabulous. The workmanship was out of this world, it was pre-drilled for "the Judge" race timer, and "the Judge" came with links installed to plug into a notebook...can't remember what software we used though. My $.02: If you're in a humid area where warping may be a problem, consider aluminum. My son's raced on them at District, and I don't like aluminum tracks -- they just don't feel, sound or "look" right to this old-fashioned dad. As an alternative, seal the wooden track very well. The Piantadosi tracks come to you bare wood -- your option to paint, stain, seal, whatever. We used several coats of clear acrylic seal, lightly sanded between each -- worked great and protected the wood. One thing I'm reading that concerns me is that time seems to be an issue for the adults when selecting tracks and choosing a race method. I never used time as a criteria when I set up PWDs. These boys build these cars to race them. The ribbons for appearance and the plastic drivers license, the checkered flag bunting, and all that hoo-hah is icing -- the racing is the cake. When I had a hand in it, I always selected the race method that resulted in every Scout racing his car as many times as possible -- as many as 20 heats in his age group. Single or double elimination is a no-go. The Scouts don't put in all that time to race twice, then watch. Also, we did something procedurally that isn't a universal practice in packs/districts I've seen. Once a car is checked in, nobody other than the Scout who built it, touches it. That includes putting it in the pit, getting it from the pit, repairs (with his dad if necessary), placing it on the track to race, etc. I don't understand why everybody doesn't do it this way. Gets the Scouts involved, makes it their race, and the last thing you want is some adult dropping a car or putting it on the track backwards. Your committee can give awards for anything they want, including slowest car if desired. I wouldn't make a big fuss over that, personally. Just because a car is slow doesn't mean the Scout did the work -- there are un-handy dads out there, too. The underlying goal is to get the dads and Scouts working together on this, and for the Scouts to have fun on race day (we always had a PA system with race sounds, pizza, coupons for free stuff donated by local merchants, etc.). Of course they want to win races, too, and they'll know who had the fastest car. How big a deal that will be to them, though, is based in large part on how PWD is portrayed by parents and leaders. For those Scouts with "win at all costs" parents and den leaders, they'll be crushed if they don't win. One more bit of advice on the Piantadosi outfit. It's a small, family run company that gets a lot of business, especially starting this time of year -- they make each track to order. If you decide to order a track from them, order soon -- it takes a while to get done and shipped to you.

AnnaLisa; At the risk of being excommunicated by the rest of the good ole' boys, I'll be happy to answer your question... Frankly, I don't care if a Scouter is a woman or a man. What I do care about is if Scouters are dedicated, open to learning, properly motivated, and willing to follow the rules. I've seen good and bad, both genders. Any awkwardness or "issues" with women on outings, at meetings, whatever, are in my experience red herrings thrown up by people who don't want them there -- if you follow the GTSS, there are no issues. My DE in Virginia happened to be a woman, and she was an incredibly good one (DE, that is...). Out front at every District/Council activity, a regular at unit-level activities, at every roundtable, professional manner, full and properly uniformed, etc., etc. I've been in units with female registered leaders, too, and gender was never an issue for me...work ethic and performance always is, and it's a main way I size people up. I've worked with quite a few female volunteer Scouters in both Cub and Boy Scouts. No problem; in fact, I've found the presence of women makes men behave better. Having said that, I can't say that any differences I've had with female Scouters can be attributed to their gender...stubbornness, irritability, laziness, nepotism and other negative traits appear to be independent of testosterone or estrogen levels. If there's any "handicap" that female Scouters have, it may be that since because of their gender, they did not experience Scouting as a youth member. But, all that should mean is that the learning curve may be a little steeper than it would be for a male who was a youth member, and is now a registered leader. BTW, I've also been with female Scoutmasters who are in the Korean Boy Scouting program, some of whom are Wood Badgers, too. BSK is co-ed, and the culture is different in addition to the demographics, but here's something important. Korea, as most Asian countries, is male-centric. Yet, the females in BSK are definitely not second-class citizens or figureheads. I agree that there's a GOB network everywhere, and every time I've moved, it takes a while to crack into it. But you always do... Good luck on your thesis, and don't let us agitate you; we really are a good bunch...you might have caught a couple of us before we had our coffee. KS

Many posters have wondered how someone could have slipped through so many BORs, SM conferences, etc., without this "issue" coming to a head. Look at the original article again, and it appears that his mom was his Scoutmaster for at least part of his time as a Scout. If you read it the same way I do, that can explain a lot of this. I wonder if anyone in a position to do so is considering revoking her membership...after all, she gave him a pass on Scout Spirit, right? KS

I'm with Bob 100% on this one. Before I became SM, our troop had done group MB instruction at troop meetings, apparently as a substitute for boy-led program planning using Troop Resources. Not all the time, but fairly often. What we had was some of the Scouts interested in the topic, some not, some attentive and taking notes, some not. Result: lots of partials and a lot of wheel-spinning. Using program planning and monthly themes, there is always a direct relationship between the theme and some MB. And, we do use MB pamphlets to assist with the skill instruction and interpatrol activity portions of the meetings. What we don't do, however, is issue a blue card to every Scout and force them to complete the badge. It's entirely up to them. Case in point. Wilderness Survival was our July theme; we used the MB pamphlet as one of the resources for skill instruction, and our Survival campout at the end of the month gave Scouts opportunities to build and sleep in an improvised shelter and complete other badge requirements. Many did, some did not, but all had a good time. Ditto with Fishing in September. Used the MB pamphlet as an instructional resource at meetings; all the Scouts enjoyed the fishing campout we did at the end of the month, but none were interested in earning the MB -- fine with me. I firmly believe that MBs should be determined by Scouts' individual initiative and desires (Eagle-required partially excepted -- they gotta earn those for Eagle, the timing's up to them). One potential pitfall of using troop meetings to teach MBs as a matter of routine is that it transfers too much responsibility for a Scout's advancement off of his shoulders and onto someone else's... Having seen it both ways, I much prefer the method we use now. KS

It's been an evolutionary thing for us. When I became SM for our troop, we were using a giant chuck box that took three men and a boy to lift; everything was in there. No patrol boxes, so all the patrols were trying to cook around the same box at the same time using the same gear -- chaos. We built smaller, lighter patrol boxes, outfitted each one with stove, lantern, cook gear/utensils, mallet, etc., etc. Each patrol has a patrol QM, primarily responsible for patrol gear. He reports shortfalls to troop QM, whose dad happens to be our committee facilities/equipment chair. Much better ownership & accountability. Our troop and patrol QMs will square away gear between outings if necessary. Not their favorite pastime, but it reinforces their sense of ownership during the outings...they won't let anything get put away wet, dirty, other-than-nifty, or they take care of it themselves later. We're a good ways from where we want to be on dishwashing, though. We use the 3-pot method with fair-sized plastic tubs. It takes more effort than I think should be necessary to keep suds water hot and clean, keep from mixing patrol cookware, and get everyone's personal eating kits cleaned. Maybe it's because dishwashing is one area where all the patrols use a single dishwashing station, rather than patrols doing it separately. I cringe at the notion of setting up three sets of everything -- I already think we're hauling too much stuff out there anyway. How do the rest of you do this? KS

The charcoal powered water heater looks awesome, but is a little complicated to make for the typical bloke. My DE had something that was much simpler to put together, although it wouldn't keep water hot as long. He took one of those square 3-gallon restaurant-size containers (metal) that oil or something comes in. Two holes in the top...one that it came with, and one 1/2 inch or so that you poke in the top at the "neutral corner" from the built-in hole. In one hole, stick in a PVC pipe that fits snug in the hole until it's about 1/2 inch from touching the inside bottom of the can. In the other hole, stick a 4 foot length of garden hose, snug, so the inside end is about 3 inches inside the top of the can. Fill it with water and put over glowing charcoal or a wood fire. When the water's hot enough to wash with, pour as much cold water fairly slowly into the PVC pipe as you want hot water to come out the hose. Come out it does, and you're ready to wash. And, with all that hot water, you can change your wash water enough to keep the whole thing sanitary. KS

Lessee, right now, a Gerber folding knife with a rubberized tacky grip like those football receivers' gloves (very nice, too, I must say) on my belt here at work. Two feet away from my right calf, firmly attached to my rig, is an M9 Phrobis III bayonet (definitely not for Scouting), a beautiful piece of kit. At home on my Scout belt, a Leatherman Super Tool. At home in the closet, a Gerber boot knife (a gift), and a multi-blade Dutch Army knife (not as well known but every bit as good as the much-touted Swiss Army knife). I'm not freakish about knives, but seem to gather them and don't get rid of them. My son the Scout has four knives. A Gerber Multi-plier in his backpack, a mini-Swiss army knife in his pocket (except to school), a GI-issue knife in his wilderness survival personal emergency kit, and a slick credit-card-size Swiss army card with various blades, tweezers, pen, and whatnot in it. I brought home a knife catalog a couple months ago from work, didn't see the thing on the coffee table, and wasn't a bit surprised to find him and his patrol buddies ogling it during the next troop meeting pre-opening...I consider that wholesome, compared with the alternatives. Four accessories I feel nekkid without: wedding ring, wallet, watch, knife... KS

Thanks for the info. I guess any lessons from a national jambo in the US would be applicable too...appreciate any other feedback... KS

When I was Cubmaster, we bought our new one from Piantadosi Oar Co (other poster mentioned them, may have spelled the name wrong). Absolutely first rate workmanship, quality, etc. I'm telling you, these people really care about wht they're doing. Beautiful track. I know the rental advocates make a strong argument, but I like having your own track if you have storage room. We've set ours up at Scout shows, Roundups, loaned it to Awana, let Scouts use it for science projects, etc. All tough to do if you rent... KS

6 months for a badge? I'd like to see how many Scouts in that troop complete the requirements for Camping in 6 months... KS

The absolute best cardboard for a box oven is the military MRE box. The cardboard is almost like wood, but still light and malleable. Check a military surplus store -- they may give you the box without buying the MREs! On your Dutch oven, if you have a 12" or smaller oven, you can use one of those round Weber "smokey joe" type grills...gets it off the ground and keeps the heat in very good. A 14" won't let enough air flow through to keep the bottom coals glowing. Kills 2 birds with one stone, too, 'cuz you can cook dinner on the grill, pull the wire part off the top, and drop your oven on it for dessert. For troop camping when we have multiple ovens going, we use the dutch oven table with charcoal pans on it. A good solid base if you're stacking them. KS