KoreaScouter

It has come up before, and as I understand it, BSA considers "active" to be synonymous with "registered". There doesn't seem to be any other official definition. That said, we all know that many units put minimum-attendance gates in place for various things, including leadership credit, advancement, outing eligibility, and so on. We don't do that. For one thing, showing up, while important, is only part of the equation...showing up and doing something is another. For me, that's where Scout Spirit kicks in, and since it's a subjective criteria, I judge it subjectively. Put another way, I don't split hairs over attendance...if you're registered, you're active. I do look closely at Scout Spirit come SM conference time, though. And, a Scout will not be surprised -- if he's not showing Scout Spirit consistently enough that it'll affect his advancement, he'll know it way before the SM conference and in enough time to change his behavior. KS

sctmom; In an earlier post on this thread, you asked if New Leader Essentials was different from the old basic training. It is, as part of the revamped leader training. NLE is for Cub Scout, Boy Scout, and Venturing leaders -- everybody together just like in WB21. The old Basic Training courses were program specific. Now, you get the program specific stuff after NLE. I just finished teaching it here recently, and I also think it takes longer than the 90 minutes in the schedule if you do it justice, and allow for questions and feedback where the lesson plan calls for it. For a pretty good graphic depiction of how the training continuum works, check out the latest Scouting magazine...frankly, I think that graphic should be part of NLE... KS

This sounds like a tempest in a teapot to me. I can't think of one Scout in the troop I serve who would want his mom to go on campouts with us. After all, with the adolescence/hormone/ independence things going on, they generally want Scout outings to be peers, and sometimes seem to tolerate leader presence only grudgingly. That said, if one wanted his mom along, she wanted to go, and it didn't disrupt the program, what's the harm? You can "what if" these things to death. Basically, if a problem comes up you deal with it; if it doesn't come up, enjoy the outing. We tell our families at parents' meetings the same thing that's on the inside of the Scout application, that parents are welcome at any troop activity...no secrets. I hope I'm not being presumptuous here, but the presence of a parent of either gender shouldn't affect an outing/activity of a troop that's doing it by the book with nothing to hide. Now, I suppose that assumes the parent isn't disrupting the program, but I stipulated that above, too. Maybe I just haven't been around long enough to run into the difficulties that some of you have... KS

Mike Walton has done a lot of research on this subject, and it appears in many threads, both here and in the US Scouting Service Project site. In fact, there are hyperlinks in some of the strings... In addition to Bob White's admonition, there are practical reasons for Scouts not to wear military uniform items. For one thing, they can introduce or encourage a militaristic overtone. Although BSA's roots are with the British Army and we are a uniformed movement, my impression is that we try very hard through policy and practice to not appear as a military auxiliary. Also, and I'll admit this is more of a concern for me as a Scoutmaster in Korea, I do not want my Boy Scouts on a back-country hike to be mistaken for military combatants...by anyone. I have a firm "no BDU" policy... KS

I agree, let the instructions on the forms and the GTSS be your guide. Two things, though: 1). One is a bit of a legal point, and I'm not a lawyer; the parental signature on the physical forms gives permission to "medical personnel" to give treatment, not Scout leaders. I've long noticed that and casually wondered if I'm included in that language. I've been at Scout camps that required separate medical power of attorney, regardless of what was on the BSA physical form. 2). What constitutes an outing requiring a Class 3 physical is somewhat a grey area. Some, such as Philmont, are obvious; others are not. For example, our Troop took a "medium adventure" trip to an island 60 miles off the coast for a week -- daily swimming, mountain hiking, touring lava tubes, etc. We could have gone either Class 2 or 3 based on the requirements, then decided on the Class 3 to err on the side of caution. KS

sst3rd; Thanks for the quick reply. I use the MB counselor worksheet along with the leader app. and our US Army-required background check consent form when I register MB counselors. I agree with you, there's no limit on the number of badges a Scout can work on simultaneously, although there is a practical upper limit that's determined by the Scout, the badges, and his ability to juggle it all. I think that was the purpose of the parents' meeting, although I don't live in their heads so I can't be sure. KS

I need some advice from you old heads out there. I recently began forming a Venture patrol, with a newly-registered ASM (Eagle and enthusiastic) heading it up. Still forming, he met with their parents during last week's troop meeting (I found out later it wasn't his idea, it was asked for by a couple parents). After the meeting, he asked me if he could also register as an MB counselor. I told him sure, gave him the paperwork, and told him we'd get it up to council after he completes it. Yesterday, I was at a troop bake sale, when our advancement chair, who is also a mom of one of the venture Scouts (Life who's started his Eagle project and a squared-away Scout), pulled the venture Scouts aside and started asking them what MBs they wanted to earn, Eagle-required and "fun" electives. Neither she nor the Scouts had MB requirements with them, but I did,so I ran down the badges, and they came up with a list of five. So far, so good, although some of the Scouts already had some of the badges, and others were partially complete with other Eagle-required badges that weren't on their short list. Then, advancement chair tells the Scouts to download the worksheets from meritbadge.com and do as much as they can before next week's troop meeting. That's when I reminded them before they begin working on an MB, they need to get a signed blue card from me with an assigned counselor. Advancement chair told me the venture ASM was going to be the counselor for all of them, and he could take care of the blue cards at the meeting, and hold the blue cards until they're complete. When I tried to show advancement chair page 185 in the Handbook that outlines how a Scout earns a MB, off to the side, things really went downhill and I'm left standing alone with the Handbook. I called the venture ASM afterward. He told me the parents wanted the meeting, and he thought it was to be about Venturing activities, not MBs. He said he felt "leaned on" to counsel MBs, and while he's not averse to doing that, he doesn't want the venture patrol turning into a group MB patrol (nor do I). Moreover, he admits he's not qualified to counsel some of the MBs on their list (Family Life for example -- he's an early 20's single guy). I'm very aware from experience that the SM's sole input into the MB process is at the front end when a Scout says he wants to earn a badge. That's when we talk about advancement goals, available time, smart choices, and counselors. As soon as I sign that blue card, it out of my hands and in the counselors'. Therefore, I pay very close attention to that front end of the process and didn't appreciate what I saw as an attempt, however well-meaining, to "hijack" it. For background, the advancement chair and I don't see eye-to-eye on some things anyway. Aside from annual YP, she's untrained and hasn't attended offered/available training courses. I guess you could say I'm the "Bob White" of our troop, 'cuz I'm usually the one insisting the rules be followed, the program adhered to, and the boys make decisions and run things, even if it's messy. Therefore, I sometimes get eye-rolls and air-leaks from, again well-intentioned, "lets-take-a-shortcut" types. Questions: - Is my vision for the Venture patrol on track, or is the Venture patrol the forum for them to focus on "old Scout" and/or Eagle-required MBs? - Am I being hyper-sensitive about the SM's role in the MB process, or is my attention level appropriate? - Are the advancement chair's actions appropriate, too involved, or not involved enough? I appreciate any feedback/advice you can give me. KS

I understand jbroganjr's frustration with some of the standardized BSA instructional materials. I just finished teaching New Leader Essentials in my area, and found the following: 1). It's not a 90-minute program if you cover all the material and let attendees get involved like the lesson plan expects you to. I had to cut off discussions at times, and it still took a shade over two hours. Could have gone for 3 easily. And, I'm not talking about telling "war stories", but answering well-intentioned questions from new leaders about their responsibilities and BSA policies. 2). The lesson plan itself needs work. Transitions are awkward, I had to highlight my own slide change markers, and there were actually discrepancies between the information in the lesson plan and the slides. One of the appendices, apparently intended as a handout, was not referenced to a particular presentation. I stuck it in where I thought it fit best. You'll catch it as you review prior to the session, but with the resources at National, these mistakes shouldn't be there when these materials hit the field. 3). The slide show format as a .pps file prevents you from producing student notetakers -- unless you do something on your own or they take good notes, they walk away empty-handed. 4). I think the GTSS got glossed over in the NLE lesson plan. Compliance with GTSS is one of our biggest problems with new leaders, and we gave it little more than passing mention in my opinion. Personalizing lesson plans is something every instructor should do when they're comfortable with it. That doesn't mean re-write the curriculum, just make it your own... KS

My DE got a new BSA bumper sticker that was given to DEs at the recent meeting in Las Vegas. It has the logo on it and says "America's returning to the values that Scouting never left." He was only given one, and I'd like to get my hands on 20 of these things. Do any of you know if your District/Council has these things? Are they free or for sale? Wanna make a deal? thanks in advance, KS

If a troop or CO has a policy that's not supported by BSA policy, a leader has several options, to include changing troops, appealing to District/Council, or legal action. Personal decision on whether it's worth it. Only BSA policy regarding females on outings I'm aware of is that they must have separate accomodations unless it's husband/wife. We had a female leader (since moved) who went on many of our outings with us...no problem. Now, she was an outdoorsman (outdoorswoman?...no, outdoorsperson?...ah, whatever!) so was very low maintenance, and did not have a son in the troop so was not a helicopter. If those problems exist with female leaders in other troops, those are training problems, not gender problems. KS

My $.02: As a former Cubmaster and current Scoutmaster (with some other leader positions mixed in), I'd like to see BSA include something as part of the Webelos program, to facilitate the transition at the other end. How about introducing note-taking and parental notification of events/activities, by the Scout, as an integral part of the Webelos program? That probably ties in with an introduction to planning and leadership, which I think is fine and should be done also. Here's my rationale. One of my challenges as SM is with newly bridged Scouts and their families, who in the case of the Scouts expect a grownup to spoon-feed them admin/schedule information. As far as parents are concerned, many expect weekly newsletters and phone calls from me regarding meeting plans, outing schedules, and other administrivia. We expect every Scout to carry a notebook/pen at any Scouting activity, take notes, and make sure his family knows what's going on. The experienced Scouts get it, but with the new ones, it's like pulling a horse through a knothole 'cuz that's not how it worked for 5 years in Cubs. Some programmed parental education during the transition would help too. I do the best I can at our annual parents' meeting and during new family conferences, but it would be much smoother if that seed were sown while they were still in a Pack. While I'm on this rant, how about an official BSA notebook for Scouts to carry? Small enough to fit in a Youth-Small shirt pocket, plastic covers for durability, little slot inside the cover to insert key names/phone numbers... KS

Respectfully to Yarrow; There are probably as many circumstances that would require more than a year as there are Scouts. Here's a couple: where we live, private ownership of weapons such as rifles and bows/arrows is prohibited. Consequently, the only time our Scouts can earn Rifle Shooting & Archery is at Summer Camp. If there's more than a year between Summer Camps due to scheduling, and a Scout got a partial the first year, a one-year rule would force him to start over. I have a Scout who started Forestry early this year, and will finish it next year when we're scheduled to visit a public forest with an English-speaking ranger. Personally, I think the requirements, rules, etc., are complicated enough without having one-year requirements for some badges and not for others. I like the 18-year old rule... KS

In our troop, we do it this way: MBs: We actively recruit counselors, some of whom are already registered leaders, some of whom are not (e.g., we have a school assistant principal for Scholarship, an exercise physiologist for Personal Fitness, Sports, and Athletics, and so on). We have more than one counselor on the list for many badges, and when a Scout wants a blue card for one, I steer him to the counselor I think will do the best job with him. Once the counselor's assigned, my input as SM into the process is essentially complete until I get the blue card back when the requirements are met. As far as knowledge retention is concerned, I really have two levels of expectation regarding MBs. I expect Scouts to retain and be able to regurgitate much of the MB knowledge/skills that relate to Eagle-required badges or those that have a high level of tie-in with the program (i.e., Orienteering, Pioneering, Cooking). On the more esoteric electives, I remember that one of the purposes of MBs is to expose Scouts to hobbies, skill areas, potential careers that they may not have otherwise. So when a Scout who earned Surveying to accompany a buddy, but isn't interested in surveying as a career can't remember a year later how to set up and sight in a transom, I'm not going to hold it against him. I don't have a problem in theory with MB universities, colleges, roundups, or whatever you want to call them. First, I don't think it violates the spirit/intent of the program, since Scout participation is not mandatory, and if they choose to participate, they select the badge or badges they want to earn. Second, the nature of these things (a single long day) effectively rules out Eagle-required and many outdoor-related electives. The badges left are primarily those hobby/career/interest area badges I referred to earlier. Now, all this assumes that the counselors are registered, they've been trained, corners aren't cut, etc., etc. Rank Advancement: Adult leaders can sign off advancement (and must for those that require it, such as T1, Scout Spirit, and the SM conferences). However, I encourage the youth leaders to do as much of this as possible. I believe that there's no better way to learn/retain a skill than having to teach it to someone else. I've found the PLC members are more demanding than many adults on these requirements, and if any of them are cutting corners, I'll know it when I see their Scouts in action...hasn't failed me yet. It also reinforces the authority and responsibility of the "Green Bars". One aspect of this makes it a little more work for me. Sometimes the youth leader will forget to update at the PLC meeting, and a Scout may be further along toward rank advancement than I'm aware of. Consequently, we regularly collect handbooks from the FY Scouts at meetings/outings to verify that our information matches the handbooks and patrol record books. KS

The skill instruction portion of the troop meeting can and often will include skills required for various Merit Badges. However, if you're using bona fide program planning and following troop meeting plans, that skill instruction will be "tiered" for new, experienced, and venture-aged Scouts. If you're consistently herding all of them in one room for group MB instruction, it tends to shoot the program in the foot. One notable exception in our case is when we were preparing for a week-long "medium adventure" trip to an island 60 miles off the coast, during which our Scouts were cooking all their own meals, for the entire week. Obviously, we were interested in them having sufficient cooking skills to feed themselves for a week without malnutrition, illness, constipation, etc. Consequently, we took the old Cooking MB academic requirements and covered them at troop meetings prior to the trip. We all ate great, no mishaps, and 11 of the 12 Scouts who went on the trip earned the MB, too. We're doing Fishing theme this month, and the skill instruction was right out of the Troop Program Features. Same types of knowledge as some of the Fishing MB requirements, but not complete coverage. What I don't understand is why a trained SM would knowingly throw the Program Features out the window and decide to teach MBs at troop meetings... KS

I'm the SM, and my son's a PL and a 1C Scout. I've been his Cubmaster and committee chair, too, so his Scouting's always had me involved somehow. I like to think that at a troop activity, unless you notice the family resemblance, a casual observer wouldn't know he's mine (unless you hear him call me "Dad"). I expect the SPL to treat him like any other PL (info, deliverables, correction) and not as the SM's son. He has never used the fact that I'm the SM as leverage with any other Scout or adult leader -- that etiquette comes from mom's side, I'm sure. I try desperately to ensure that, despite my role, his experience is no different than any other Scout whose dad isn't the SM. That's not completely possible of course, but I try mightily. After all, I'm the first one at the Scout hut on meeting night, and he's with me, and therefore helping me get things set up. He's at home while I'm doing Scout work, SM conferences, etc, and by virtue of proximity, knows more about what's involved with this than his Scout buddy whose dad isn't the SM. On campouts, he of course wants to maintain that "aloofness" toward me in front of his peers, but we are very close. So, he'll want to talk to me about some topic related to the campout or the next outing. Then, the subject will always change to a father/son thing of his choosing, we'll yak for a while, then he runs off. Or, while hugs at the house are okay, he'd rather chew on aluminum foil than give me one in public, even more so at a Scout activity. But, in some primate way, he still needs/wants that physical contact. So, he'll substitute arm wrestling or a couple shoulder punches for a hug...go figure. I have specifically not gotten involved with OA yet because he hasn't been elected yet (he just got his 15th camping night in July). I got into this do things with him...it would be awkward going to OA and leaving him at home... One thing I have to remind myself constantly is to hold him to the same standard I do all the other Scouts in the Troop, especially regarding Scout Spirit. After all, living the Oath and Law in their daily lives is something I, for the most part, won't know about except for occasional examples, or if I become aware of something exceptional from home, school, church, etc. Except for my son, that is. I know every time he teases his sister, forgets to take out the trash, didn't put his clothes in the hamper, fell asleep at church, and so on. Gotta keep it in perspective. KS

The original question was does the Webelos program prepare them. As with any other aspect of Scouting, the policies and plans are great as written, but the execution is often lacking. Den leaders in CS are the key -- if they're untrained, lazy, or don't get it, it's not going to work. The most animated Cubmaster at a monthly pack meeting is not going to make up for it. There's definite techniques that make this better. Following BSA "Webelos to Scout transition" literature is optimal. KS

We routinely clip ziploc sandwich bags on the outside of our troop tent rain flies with the names of the Scouts, patrol, etc., for accountability purposes. Maybe that's what they have in mind. My WB staff didn't grade us on any "embellishments"... Hey Buffalo2, I think I knew Fred; about 5'10", little chubby, glasses, thinning brown hair? Is Gumdrop near Plattsburgh? I used to be a buffalo... KS

Very timely thread, since I have several new ASMs and now have the luxury of assigning specific duties/patrols rather than the "firefighting" I had to do previously. I plan to have one monitor FCFY, one with the venturers, one with each experienced patrol. Also, I plan to give each of them the Troop "lead" on projects/events such as MB roundup, camporee planning, outings, etc., as time permits. I agree with other posters that permits, equipment accountability, and other admin/support functions are best left to the committee, if you're fortunate enough to have that level of support. Our Advancement chair doesn't use me or any of our ASMs on BORs, although I have sat on them for SMs from other troops at district events...

My daughter has moved up to Junior Girl Scouts from Brownies, and of course, we have to replace all the uniform stuff (not complaining, she's outgrown it anyway). Well, our nearest GSUSA store is at Camp Zama, Japan. Just popping over while out for a paper and some milk is out of the question. Her troop leader pointed me to the GS web page, and guess what? Yep, online catalog that you can really order from, not just a thing that tells you where your nearest service center is like ours. Now, we were spoiled in Virginia, where the Scout Store was 15 minutes away, fully stocked, and the National Supply Center a half-day truck drive. But what about overseas, or in rural districts, or if you just prefer to use the Net to shop? Well, I can get anything I want in 5 days from the GS. But from my beloved BSA, we must "go to the general store for provisions", like the pioneers did 150 years ago. Somebody please tell me how that makes sense. I know what the likely arguments are in favor of the status quo. Please let me know if I'm missing something here. 1) How does BSA know you're a registered Scout/Scouter; can't have an unauthorized person getting their hands on our stuff, right? A Council, District, or unit authorization code could be entered that would weed out impostors. I know what the uniform/insignia guide says, but if we were serious about uniform items for registered persons only, we'd conduct periodic sweeps of flea markets, yard sales, thrift shops, and Goodwill stores to keep all the used BSA items from falling into the wrong hands. 2) How will Districts/Councils receive their markup if we bypass the Scout Store and order direct from the Net? How about by the same council, district or unit code that you enter to verify registration? It works, and there's precedent. Just ask an Amway distributor how their "upline" gets their share when they order soap online...on second thought, don't ask, just take my word for it, unless you want to get recruited! A long post over a seemingly small thing, but if you lived where I do, you'd appreciate the convenience and speed of online ordering. Why hasn't BSA gotten on board? KS

Amen to training. It's appalling how many well-meaning volunteers will spend way more than their hour a week on Scouting, but won't invest 90 minutes in New Leader Essentials training. Keeping Scouting Safe is one of the presentations, and while it doesn't result in memorization of the GTSS, one should leave NLE knowing that any activity warrants a GTSS review. In addition to the .pdf version from BSA, the U.S. Scouting Service Project has one that's downloadable to a Palm OS PDA. No excuse for not knowing the rules. A personal annoyance for me, who carries the GTSS all the time, and believes in permits, etc., is that when other leaders don't and you're forced to remind them of the requirements, you can be perceived as overly evangelical, strident, and bureaucratic. For example, I was the "wet blanket" who snuffed out plans for paintball and go-kart racing at separate troop activities, and won't permit liquid charcoal starter, and convinced cub leadership to change their plans for a pool-party roundup when SSD obviously wasn't a part of the planning. Oh well, somebody has to carry the torch (yes, I have a Firem'n chit!). KS

We call ourselves the "Old Goat Patrol", although it's more to poke fun at ourselves (Scouts find it very amusing that we acknowledge our alleged collective decrepit-ness)than to model ideal patrol operation. I agree with rlculver415 that leader training, with particular emphasis on the aims/methods, should minimize "unwanted hands-on" by leaders. Most mean well, just need to be taught & occasionally reminded that it's "Boy" Scouts, not "Adult" Scouts. Frankly, the most common violators are those who recently bridged from a Webelos den -- still accustomed to adults calling all the shots. That's the great thing about getting everybody together in the revamped New Leader Essentials -- clearly explains the transition from dependence on adults to independence... KS

1. Watch Youth Protection & Fast Start tapes today. 2. Get to a New Leader's Essentials 90-minute course ASAP. 3. Attend Cub Leader Training when your District schedules it. 4. Get a "Guide to Safe Scouting", and read it cover to cover. 5. Recruit 2 leaders for every den (enthusiasm, not experience, is the main prerequisite). 6. Husband/Wife teams should not count as 2 leaders; if one can't make a meeting/activity, the other usually can't as well. If you have a husband/wife team, get a third leader. 7. Hire a good assistant Cubmaster whose strengths offset your weaknesses -- no clones. 8. Insist your den leaders are as trained as you are. 9. Remember the den leaders work for you, you work for the CO. You choreograph the program each month, the committee enables it with $$, materiel, advancements, etc. 10. Follow the program, including all the program helps, especially if you're new at this. BSA's been doing Cubs for over 70 years, they've pretty well got it figured out. 11. Be VERY NICE to the advancements chair; when the pack program gets rolling, those critters will be earning belt loops, activity pins, patches, beads, and other doo-dads at an alarming rate. The den leader reports, advancement reports, and hardware all needs to flow quickly -- the Advancements chair makes it happen. 12. Don't be afraid to remove a leader who's not cutting the mustard. I've had to do it as a Cubmaster and Committee Chairman. It's unpleasant, but the mass defections away from a bad den leader are worse. There are many indicators; watch for them. 13. Go to every Roundtable you can. Pick other leaders' brains. 14. Pester your unit commissioner for feedback and advice. 15. Between you, your assistant, your unit commish if he has time, and experienced committee members (e.g., treasurer who has been a den leader), ensure each den gets one pack-level visit to a den meeting each month. Too many good reasons to; don't be an ostrich. 16. Get personally involved in the Webelos-to-Scout transition. February will be upon you before you know it. Good luck. KS

Check your charter itself. We presented ours to our CO for display, but I did read it first, and I swear there was language on it about following BSA policies, etc... KS

Leaders/committee members who will not attend training beyond YP, don't understand how the program works, and causes those of us who are trained to run a continuous "ding-dong school" whenever we're doing an activity, having a meeting, etc... KS

Moreover, your elected leaders are being robbed of many great opportunities to exercise their leadership, communications, and organizational skills. BTW, how do you do Courts of Honor if you don't meet as a troop? KS