KoreaScouter

Bob; If that's the message you got from my post, it must be due to a failure as a communicator on my part. I meant to refer to compulsory uniforming only as a way to put the non-official clothing debate to bed once and for all. I obviously failed at my mission! In the end, it really doesn't matter to me for two reasons. One, I'm already fully uniformed, so it would be akin to telling me I can't beat my dog. Two, I can't get worked up over something that BSA obviously isn't worked up over. On your pants challenge, you don't by chance write contract RFPs (requests for proposal) for a living, do you? Your criteria looks like an RFP designed so that no bidders will qualify, except the one you want to get the contract. That said, it only took me a minute to find pants that meet all but one of your critera (they're imported). Look at the Columbia Tierra pants...roomy, zip-off, quick-drying, multiple cargo pockets, under $40 at a retailer near you, or online... I agree that the program isn't a cafeteria, where you take the items you want and leave the rest. But, as one of the religious debates go, if someone agrees with you, there's no need to try to convince them you're right. If they don't agree with you, there's no way you'll convince them you're right... KS

Bob; No argument here. As I said before, I think we're in violent agreement. You asked me for suggestions on how to enforce a compulsory uniform policy -- I answered you. I'm not proposing a compulsory uniform policy. My personal policy matches BSA's: They say we're a uniformed movement -- so do I. They encourage full uniforming -- so do I. They do not require full uniforming -- neither do I. They do not punish Scouts or Scouter who aren't wearing full uniforms -- neither do I. The SMs in my SM handbook illustrations wear a full uniform -- so do I. I think that's all any of us can do... KS

Bob; I don't know that there's any national policy that would work for all situations, in all units...but again, that wasn't my point. My point was that the debate over camo (and other non-official items) will continue, and we may as well get accustomed to it, until or unless BSA mandates the wear of the official uniform, like sports teams, JROTC, band, and other uniformed organizations do. The enforcement of such a mandate is a separate, although parallel issue. I was making an observation, not a recommendation. That said, let me answer your question specifically (although I thought I did already). Exclusion from meetings and activities, with a national compulsory uniform wear policy, seems to me to be the best and maybe the only way to enforce it, if you choose to. You could do other things, too, such as making full uniform a joining requirement, or advancement requirement. But, that gets them a uniform...exclusion gets it out of the closet and on their bodies. When I coached youth sports, exclusion from practice and games was universally used for boys who were not properly uniformed/equipped. If you did such a thing, there would be two possible results, I think. One, the boy will quit. Two, he'll comply with the policy. If BSA ever instituted compulsory uniforming, they'd have to be okay with either result... Now, the enforcement at the unit level would come down to green bars and volunteers who may or may not "buy in" to the policy...what have you gained? National Supply Center's sold more pants, that's all. For what it's worth, I've taken a straw poll of my Scouts who I know have full uniforms, but usually go "waist-up". They've told me, to a person, that the official pants are uncomfortable, and because of the cost, they "save" them for ceremonies and boards. Again, I'm not necessarily promoting this; my observation in that post was a muse, not a call to action. KS

Bob; I guess I could have left off the "extreme" and it wouldn't have aroused your hackles quite so much. The only real design/engineering change to the pants in recent years has been to add a useless cargo pocket. They fare poorly when compared with commercial offerings by Columbia, North Face, etc...compare the features, but the cost is about the same. I don't have my handbook in front of me, but to paraphrase, it does say the BSA pants are suitable for most outdoor activities -- but decreeing it so does not make it so. I don't intend this to be a uniform slam, 'cuz I'm a head-to-toe type guy. Look in the current catalog, and you'll see BSA offers t-shirts and other outerwear (above the waist only) in a variety of weights and fabrics...so I know that they know that there are options for various climatic conditions. Regarding compulsory uniform wear, I'm not advocating it, I'm merely suggesting that the reason the debate continues is because uniform wear is not compulsory. How to enforce it? We compare Scouting to intramural sports all the time in this forum. How does a football coach enforce a "hard cup" policy? No cup, no play. Again, I'm not advocating a "no pants, no camp" policy, but simply pointing out that enforcement is easy if you: 1). Have a policy, and 2). Have the collective intestinal fortitude to stick to it. Again, so there's no misunderstanding, I'm not advocating a "boot camp" atmosphere in which we chase a Scout home if he isn't wearing a service star for the correct number of years. My point is simply that we have to accept the partial uniforming of our Scouts and leaders absent a national uniform policy. I have to partially disagree with your statement that "...mandated or not, the only way to control uniform wear is by the integrity of the adult volunteers...". Not mandated, there is no way to control uniform wear -- you can only model it (no pun intended). Other than that, I think we're in violent agreement here. I wear the full uniform when appropriate, encourage all others to do so, and hope they do. Some do early on, some do later on, and some never do, for reasons only they know. KS

Dan; You're right, some of the best bargains on outdoor gear are at the surplus stores; certainly better than the catalogs. Some of it makes sense for Scouting, and some doesn't. The mosquito nets are great; and the GI closed-cell foam sleeping pads are the first thing most of our Scouts use while camping. On the other hand, I think a water bottle in a backpack holster is a better solution than a military canteen, and a hydration system such as the Camelbak "Scout" is better yet, and not much more expensive than a canteen, holder, belt, etc., from a surplus store. I also agree with you that lots of the gear from the BSA catalog is overpriced and under-engineered. One exception though is the Silva starter compass; easy to teach, easy to use, especially compared with the military lensatic, and a bargain at under $10. There are other examples, too; bottom line, I shop around and try to get the best price on the best solution for what I need. All but a couple Scouts in our troop are from military families, and their dads have a houseful of TA-50. Some Scouts use some of that gear when camping, but most have figured out that there are lighter or more suitable alternatives and "graduate" from it very quickly. I think one thing all leaders need to keep an eye on is that Scouts who collect and are interested in this gear don't cross a line from Scouting over to playing soldier. Hops_Scout: The last thing you want to do is wear an LBE, even the newer LBV, under a backpack. I've done it many times, and it's unpleasant. It's necessary though, in my line of work, when you realize the purpose of an LBE is to allow you to carry minimum essential combat gear (ammo, grenades, first aid kit, radio, etc.) in case you have to jettison your backpack under fire. On a Scout backpacker, that's a situation you shouldn't encounter -- if you do, I'd draft a strongly worded letter to whomever planned your backpacker! Seriously, though, everything you need should fit in or on your backpack, and then the backpack on your body, without a lot of other harnesses and junk underneath it. Just one more thing: is any of the "modified" SF gear you're carrying not on the list of Scout Outdoor Essentials or Personal Overnight Gear? Is your PL, SPL, and Scoutmaster aware you're bringing it? KS

When I was the Pack CC, we bought a 4-lane Piantadosi with a "Judge" timer. True, the track comes unfinished; they want to give the customer the option to paint, stain, clear coat, or whatever. We clear coated ours, about six coats with a light sand in between. The Piantadosi tracks are marvels of workmanship. The quality details are evident in the wood itself (cabinet grade), the design, the fasteners/fittings, everything. It wasn't cheap, but it was worth every penny. KS

Not long ago, one of the Scouts in our Troop had a question about insignia and patch placement that wasn't in the Handbook, but was told it was in the Insignia Guide. He asked me about a copy of the IG. Now, I had access to my unit commish's copy of the IG several years ago in Virginia when I was a Cubmaster, so I knew that most of the information in the IG did not apply to him as a Boy Scout since all the programs' youth and leader guidance is in the book. What I didn't tell him was "...most of what's in there doesn't apply to you. What's your question and I'll find out for you...". What we did was get a copy of the current IG for the Troop, gave it to the Librarian, it's on our bookshelf, and anyone who wants to can check it out and read it. It may not be apparent to old-timers, long-tenured leaders, or the well-connected, but for those of us who haven't been doing this all our lives, it IS difficult to get access to many pubs that we believe would give us a more solid foundation in BSA leadership. Some District and Council staffers CAN be patronizing and condescending, with a "need-to-know" attitude. Make these documents accessible, and I'll decide after I look them over, if they're pertinent to me or not. If BSA doesn't want the expense of printing page changes to the R&R and bylaws, why aren't they posted on the Internet, even on a "leader's only" page where we enter the information off our membership card as a password, if privacy's a concern? It's no secret that several active members of this forum, myself included, are active duty military members. If any organization has a valid reason to limit distribution of its publications, it's the military services. Virtually all of our departmental pubs are on the internet, either on the unclassified or classified side. I can click a link and open a pub that tells me what inert gas to fill an F-16 tire with. Is that pertinent to me? Of course not. But that's not the point. One big difference: the military doesn't make money selling books...BSA does. I would submit that the DE's and DC's jobs would be a lot easier if we masses of unwashed volunteers had real-time access to a full library of guidance and policy. I'd certainly call them less often with questions I could answer myself by "looking it up". I do it at work every day. KS

We don't permit any hygiene near our dining fly/kitchen areas...another good reason why! KS

This thread hits home; we've had others on the relevance of the current BSA JLT package. It needs to be updated. I'm looking at Troop elections in two months, with the prospect of offering the same Troop-level JLT again...some of our Scouts have had it three times already. The fact that many of you have done your own Troop-level JLT curriculum only proves the point. KS

In addition to the other great advice here, especially finding out the human factors & motivations, here's one more bit: Read everything you can. Not just the SM handbook and Scout Handbook. Here's a short list (anyone else, feel free to add): -Fieldbook -Requirements Book -Troop Committee Guidebook -Insignia Guide -SPL handbook -PL Handbook -Junior Leader Handbook -Advancement Committee Policies book -Guide to Safe Scouting Here's a few more tips: - Ask to see copies of the last ten Local Tour Permits the Troop filed. That'll tell you if they did them, first of all, where they went, and who approved them. All good indicators of program strength and rule-following. - Ask to see the minutes of the last year's committee meetings...same reasoning. - Ask to see the treasurer's reports for the last year...same reasoning. - Ask to look at the Troop's equipment. The organization, condition, and quantities will tell you a lot. - Ask to see the last year's advancement reports. - Look at the troop flag; where are the Quality Unit and Camporee award streamers? Good luck. KS

I have a son in Boy Scouts and a daughter who's a Junior Girl Scout. I'm not a registered Girl Scout leader (I've thought about it, and they're allowed, but men are restricted in their activities with the GS troops, especially outdoors, which is where I'd want to be, mainly), but I go to most of my daughter's troop meetings with her, help set up camps, have loaned my Scouts to teach the older girls outdoor skills before some of their Wider Ops, will be selling cookies this morning as a matter of fact, and so on. I think the Boy Scout program socializes boys to be men, and the Girl Scout program socializes girls to be women. I've been through my daughter's handbook and badge book with her, and what some see as a feminist or left-leaning message in the program, I see as elements that boost a girl's self-esteem, maintain positive self-images, teach positive values, and get them grounded in real-life skills. My daughter's troop leaders got them started straight away on "Stress Less" (she uses the techniques to deal with her brother, God bless her!), and "It's Important to Me" (personal values). I also think Girl Scouts, the way their troops are organized in age groups (like Cub Scouts), results in smaller troops, closer in age, with a big advantage when it comes to social interaction, shared interests, and so on. That may be helping their recruiting/retention. I'm telling you, it's tough to make the human dynamics work with 11-17 year olds in the same room in a Boy Scout troop. I've got Scouts on campouts who bring teddy bears, and others who are shaving and calling their girlfriends on their cell phones...make that work! GSA has also been way more flexibile and dynamic when it comes to uniforms. Many, many options, some traditional, some modern, and you can order any of them straight off the internet, to your mailbox. Lets girls express themselves a little more individually. Honestly, I think it's cute in my daughter's Girl Scout troop, but I don't think I'd want my Boy Scouts looking like a bunch of contras at a troop meeting...maybe old geezers like me are part of the problem. I'm not Solomon; I don't know how to solve the policy issues without alienating the critics or the CO blocks. I sure hope they figure out a way to do it, though. I'm tired of the controversy and just want to go camping. KS

Hindsight being 20/20, those details are best resolved when the troop leadership decides to sell popcorn, well before it arrives. You can use any of those methods. Our troop's popcorn profit is going into the troop account, because that's what we decided five months ago. We don't charge dues, so that's one of the major ways each Scout contributes to the troop finances. On the HA angle, I assume all your Scouts who sold popcorn are Venture-age? We don't use a November fund raiser as a summer camp offset, primarily becuase as a military troop, we don't know which of our Scouts will still be here for summer camp. We do know by Spring, though, and do some apportioned fund raisers then. If you didn't promote popcorn sales as an apportioned fund raiser, and some families therefore opted out, and now you declare it an apportioned fund raiser, you can really raise the hackles of those families. I'm not saying you should be overly concerned, just be aware that dynamic will likely be out there. KS

Sorry about the misquote, NJ -- I should have taken the extra minute to confirm it on Google...but I hope you got my point nonetheless. I was stationed in Europe from '93 to '96, when atrocities in the Former Yugoslavia were at their height, and troops from my unit guarded the hospital in Zagreb, Croatia from '94 until after I left in '96. I think your characterization of our role in that crisis is somewhat inaccurate. Early on, even when the Europeans knew ethnic cleansing was taking place, they sat on their hands (sound familiar?). The UN then tried sending in peacekeepers, when there was no peace yet, with both hands tied behind their backs. My unit in the Netherlands trained with the same Dutch Army unit that was deployed around Srebenica, and was forced to watch as the Serbs dragged the men and boys away to be shot and buried in mass graves -- no support from their immediate superior, who was...you guessed it, French! Our ultimate involvement after that 3-ring circus brought about the stable, if not optimal situation that exists there today. Sometimes we seem schizophrenic in our collective self-criticism. We beat ourselves up for being "interventionist", then in the next breath, we beat ourselves up again for "not doing anything" about a crisis somewhere. I'm not really interested in being lectured on peace and being a good neighbor by the Germans, either. I guess they only want to fight if the war has "World" at the beginning of the name. At any rate, their Chancellor ran on the platform he's standing on now, so no big surprise. Seriously, if you haven't read the transcript of the Wolfowitz speech, I strongly recommend you do so. KS

It happened to be in Virginia, too... KS

Here's the web address of a transcript of a speech by Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz in New York City recently...may help put the Iraq situation in some perspective. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,76427,00.html KS

If you have children of any age, you should be concerned about crusaders/criminals/crazies anywhere in the world -- this is a marathon, not a sprint; my son is only 12, and we've discussed how he will fulfill his obligation to perform national service someday. Two things are for sure: I don't want it to be here or in the Middle East. I pray every day for a world in which I won't have to have those conversations with him. I can't speak for anyone but myself, however, I believe the Israelis are showing (thankfully) remarkable restraint, so as not to turn this into a Moslem vs. Jewish conflict. They showed the same restraint in 1990/1991, even while 37 Scuds, launched from Iraq, landed on their country. As someone who lives less than 50 miles from the North Korean border, I can assure all of you there's no "concern vacuum" about the situation here. But, the situation is different. For one thing, the major stakeholder in this situation is the Republic of Korea and its 50 million citizens who have national policies, goals, and dreams of reunification. Bottom line: North Korea is not Iraq. MK, you asked about likelihood of success? Militarily, that's not debatable, no matter what we're asked to do or where we're asked to do it. National will and public opinion/support; that may be a bigger determinant of success than military capability. I'm reminded of a quote attributed to, I believe, Thomas Jefferson, when he was asked after the Constitutional Convention what type of government our young nation will have. He replied: "A democracy, if you can keep it." KS

We had the same question for a former council when I was a Cubmaster, on the pack meeting "sweet tooth" activity at the end. What they told us was since the activity was strictly internal to the pack and its families and didn't involve selling tickets to the community, there were not concerns about gambling/raffles and so on. KS

Yup. In my line of work, we call it defining the task, the condition, and the standard. You can't just tell a Scout he's the Chaplain Aide without telling him what he needs to do, training him from the JL handbook, and providing feedback as he's going along... KS

Let me clarify something on the scribe...when compared APL with the scribe as far as leadership credit goes, I referred to the patrol scribe, not the troop scribe. We have a troop scribe, and I know the troop scribe position is eligible for leadership credit by definition. What I was trying to do was point out the differences in the scope of authority and responsibility between an APL and a PATROL scribe. Again, this depends on how a troop trains and employs their APLs, and ultimately on a case-by-case basis, whether or not the APLs have an opportunity to use what they've learned and prepared for. Personally, I don't find it as easy as shoving pegs into holes. For example, our feeder Pack asked for Den Chiefs for every one of their dens. There's no way I could do that many; not enough sets of nostrils. I did, however, have several Scouts who were old enough, and had the rank. But, I didn't think they'd make good Den Chiefs because of other commitments, desire to work with Cubs, etc. So I only provided one, to the Webelos 2 den. What to do with the others? Troop jobs on the "approved" list, but would have less program impact if they didn't show up or didn't cut the mustard... How about another look at the subject of the string: APL not counted for advancement. Why isn't it, and Troop Librarian is (not picking on librarians, just using it as an example.)? KS

Look, I don't mean to be a martinet here, but again, flip the BSA Unit Money-Earning Application over onto the back side, left column, item #3. I quote: "Does your plan comply with local ordinances; is it free from any association with gambling; and is it consistent with the ideals and purposes of the Boy Scouts of America? Money-earning projects that include the sale of raffle tickets are in violation of this policy." Now, if your council approves it, it's approved, but some things have been non-starters in every council I've been in, and raffles are one of them... KS

You can't do a raffle; look at the conditions on the back of the unit money earning application. Anyone who hands a buck to a Scout unit has to get something of value in return. You may be able to do it if everyone who bought a ticket got something...like the little first aid kits in the 35mm film containers... KS

Maybe...depending on the ingredient list. I'd hold both bottles next to each other and compare... KS

Eisely; No, they sell it at the store, in little one ounce bottles, or pump bottles for your bathroom. There's lots of different companies marketing it (Purel, Dial, and others). Look over next to where the antibacterial hand soap is. The key to this stuff working as a fire starter is to make sure it's at least 40% ethanol... KS

The most solemn obligation of a government is to protect its citizens. Government leaders who do not ensure their organizations are capable of uninterrupted operations in the event of natural or man-made emergency are negligent in their duties. This is typically done by redundant operations centers, with backup files and means of communications, sometimes with skeleton staffs. It's a concept I've lived and worked with in both the public and private sector for years. How do you think so many private businesses were able to re-establish so quickly after the terrorist attacks destroyed their headquarters in the WTC? By having a backup operations center with redundant capabilities, that's how. I guess we could, in a sinister manner, refer to that as "shadow businesses"? KS

They all made it back safe and sound, although one got sick there, and still sounded like he's coughing up a lung at our PLC last Friday. I've told all of them I want them to write down their thoughts and give me their pictures. I want to put together a slide show and a narrative, for our local paper and for the rest of the troop. They were absolutely beat when they got back, and since they all missed a week of school, they've been spending most of their spare time catching up on homework and classwork...so I haven't leaned on them too much for the WJ notes...yet. More to follow! KS