kenk

"But no way will you find success in a "den" of 20." ...and it is just not fair to your son. He deserves the best Scouting experience he can have and it is up to you to ensure he gets it. Though it may sound selfish, your first priority should be to provide a great Scouting experience for your son. Providing that experience to other boys is certainly icing on the cake. Of course, if all else fails, the other option is to find another pack. Worse things have happened.

Welcome aboard!! Wow, 20 boys. That is simply too many to do any of them justice. I started Tiger Cubs with 10 boys and have slowly progressed (added some, lost some) to 6 boys. That is a wonderful den size!!! Its no wonder parents don't want to volunteer for anything - they have to deal with 20 boys and another 20+ parents/siblings at any den activity!! My advice is to hold a drawing at the next den meeting - last names out of a hat. The first 9 names (assuming your boy is one of the 20) are in your den. The others will have to identify a den leader and an assistant den leader THAT NIGHT, and, if willing, you are available to coach the new den leaders. Boys/parents who were selected to go into your den, but want to be in the "new" den can opt out. In that case pull another name out of the hat to replace them. If a family isn't present and their name was not drawn, call their house and let them know what happened and who to contact (if no den leader stepped forward, give them the list of nine other people in their den to call). Make it fast, make it clean, make it fair. Scouting isn't a government organization. It is run by volunteers who are mostly parents. You don't owe them a Scouting experience - that, unfortunately for some, is in the hands of their parents. Also, don't forget to identify an assistant den leader for your den. It will make a big difference for you.

I do suggest you use heavy duty foil. On my first try we used regular foil and it burned through. Be careful not to over cook it.

Got It!!! It is at the exact same spot in the 2001 version of the Cub Scout Leader Book... at the top of page 18-4. Thanks so very much.

Thanks Bob ... err, I mean John. I have the prior version of the Cub Scout Leader Book - don't want to invest in the new one considering I have just 4 or 5 months to go before my boys graduate. I'll see if I can find the same phrase in the older version. What was the title of section 18? Ken K.

Thanks for your replies. Your comments match my opinion exactly. What is happening is that I have a Bear den Asst. Den Leader who is entering his son's advancement completion dates on our Pack's on-line system (ScoutTrack.com). I noticed that he entered dates from last year for a number of achievements. He tends to be - how do I say it nicely - easily offended, and not the easiest guy in the world to talk about things with. This person has been easily irritated in the past, and now that he is an Asst Scoutmaster of a local troop as well it has gotten even worse. (think jerk) In addition, the Asst Den Leader is best buddies with the Den Leader, who is VERRRRY casual about Scouting requirements and not doing a good job planning/running meetings. Our Committee Chair and Cubmaster's sons are in his den and they are trying to figure out how to create new Bear den without either the Den Leader or the Asst Den Leader. On top of that, the Asst Den Leader is the Cubmaster's brother-in-law. Yes, "As The Stomach Turns". Before I bring this up at the next committee meeting, I need proof in writting from some official documentation that using "last year's activities to complete this year's achievements/electives" is not allowed. I need it in writting. Where is Bob White when I need him??? Does anybody know how to use the Bob White signal? (I'm thinking of the Batman symbol projected up on the clouds over Gotham City)

Can anyone point me to an "official" statement that says a boy must do the achievement/elective activities during the respective year? For example, David is a currently in a Bear den and in 3rd grade. One of the Bear requirements is to attend an outdoor event with his family. Last year when David was in second grade he attended a balloon race. Can he use this activity to fullfill the Bear achievement, even though it happened the year before he was a Bear? If not, where does it say that Bear achievements/electives must be completed while the boy is a Bear scout? I looked in the Bear Handbook and the Cub Scout Leader Book and cannot find such a requirement explicitly stated. Another way to say it is: Is there an implicit "While a Bear Scout, ...." before each of the Bear achievements and electives? If so, where is that stated?

You might also consider contacting your local health department for recommendations/suggestions on proper sanitation. You could get 100 people very sick without proper sanitation. At the very least... Make sure your hot dogs are kept hot enough to prevent bacterial growth. Best to keep them above 135 degrees F. If cooler than that, limit cool time to less than two hours. Keep uncooked hot dogs cold - below 41 degrees F - in a cooler with ice ON TOP of the dogs. Cool air from ice travels downward. Cover food to keep contaminates/flies off of it. Keep sick people (coughing/sneezing) away from the food. Make sure all serving gear has been sanitized in a bleach solution (1 tbsp chlorine bleach per gallon clean water - soak for 2 minutes). Make sure servers fingernails are trimmed and clean. Have servers wash hands regularly, or better yet, wear plastic gloves that are also changed regularly.

Very interesting ... I have often thought that teaching is a great - and sometimes subtle - way to gain leadership experience. By this point in his Scouting career I'm sure he has lots of knowledge to teach the younger boys. By the very nature of teaching, those taught look to the instructor as a leader. Has this boy spent time with younger Scouts teaching them some of the Scout through First Class skills? I would have hoped so. Ken K.

If he comes to camp lathered up on Avon Skin-So-Soft, then he might be a Cub Scout. If he'd chooses not to eat the weird looking camping food, then he might be a Cub Scout (Boy Scouts will eat just about anything). If he's doesn't know how to light a match, then he might be a Cub Scout. If a high chance of rain cancels the weekend outing, then he might be a Cub Scout. If the bottom of his shirt almost touches the ground, then he might be a Tiger Cub Scout. :-)

Can you "mask" recommendations for changes as exuberance about information you learned in your recent/upcoming training? I'm picturing you essentially developing your own short training session the covers the stuff you think is not know/done by your troop, present that information to the committee, and then emphasize "this is what we're supposed to be doing" and "most of the the scouters taking the training said this is what their troops are already doing and it really works. The approach is not "this is what you're NOT doing", but "this is what we could be doing". This is kind of what happened when I started as a leader in Cub Scouts in needing to change some minor issues ... though it really was exuberance on my part. BTW, I'm entering my 5th year as a den leader and defintely understand your need for some time off ... and your excitement to help your boys' troop.

Maybe if you post your questions here you could get some answers.

Hmmm, I just had an idea that is based upon the notion that one of the secrets of PWD is the axle polishing & alignment. What if we give the boys just the block of wood ahead of time and let them carve it and paint it as they wish ... ... and then the day of (or night before) the derby they have to come together for wheel assembly. They would be given a stock set of wheels and axles and have to install them on site. We could even paint the ends of the axles some color ahead of time so we can tell if "custom" axles are brought in. We already have a weighing & adding weight process before the race where we do our best to make sure all cars are maximum weight. One of the real problems with the stock axles (nails) is that they are pressed - so there are nasty flashings sticking out of the sides that really slow the cars down. DOES ANYONE KNOW IF SOMEONE MAKES "CLEAN" PWD AXLES?? If so, maybe we could buy enough to distribute in place of the stock axles??

My guess is that none of this is new to those who are involved in Cub Scouting. Come Derby day the cars that have been built by the sons of pack leaders are much faster than those built by the sons of non-leaders. As a matter of fact, for the last several years three of the five dens had the den leader's sons win first place for their age-class. In general it seems that the same boys win year after year. I have no problems with parents helping the boys build their cars. That is completely natural, and I would assume that help would decrease proportionally as the boys get older and more capable. To try to overcome the potential inequalities brought on by extensive parental involvement in the car-building process, our Council has suggested that the boys build the cars on the day of the race or the night before the race. They would not necessarily carve them and decorate them with markers or quick-drying paint. I myself am in favor of some kind of Derby "reform", but not sure how such an extreme change would go over in my Pack. Does anyone have advice on this?

I can't tell you much more about the DGS program, but I was in charge of sewing those darn petals on my daughter's vest. Get out your geometry books and protractors because getting the angles right is a nightmare. Since you only get a one or a few petals at a time, you need to place them so that in the end all will fit and it will look reasonable. Whoever came up with that idea clearly didn't have to sew the petals on themselves. There are 10 petals, which means they need to be sewn on axes that are 36 degree angles with each other. Picture a wheel with 10 spokes. The anlge between adjacent spokes is 36 degrees. The petals would be centered on each spoke. What they need is a big daisy patch with "fuzzy" velcro where the petals will go, or something similar.

Greying Beaver, Maybe its just late enough that my brain isn't working well, but can you clarify your troop's approach to renewing the patrol method, why that made inactive parents upset, and how that affected their boys' leadership? I guess I'm not understanding. Thanks, Ken K.

So much for my math... That's a 36 year old cheap knife.

"bait knives" Are those the ones so cheap that you fasten a treble hook to one end, tie the line onto the other, cast it out to see if any fish will bite? ;-) I'll have to admit that my most cherished knife is a cheap give-away advertizing knife that my Dad gave me as my first knife. It is a little yellow two-blade that has inscribed on the side "Phillips 66 Good Neighbor - 1969". Yup, a 26-year old cheap knife that simply will not take an edge ... that I wouldn't trade for anything.

I am with you all the way my friend. I am seeing "flavors" of Scouting based upon the whim of a adult leaders. I'm also bothered that many troops are so heavily influenced by one person. It is quite common around here for troops to be referred to as "Jerry Thompson's Troop". Huh? I know that my Cub Scout Pack isn't associated with any one individual, and that is a good thing. Our Pack is the accumulated effort of the committee and parents, and we follow the program as it was designed. Especially lately another thing that I've noticed is adult leaders simply not living up to the Scout Law. I've run up against blatently rude leaders who put their desires (or their sons) ahead of what is right or what is best for the Pack. I can't stand when I have to explain the inappropriate actions of an adult leader to my son. The Scouting program works and it works VERY well. One of my goals as a Webelos Den Leader will be to teach the boys' parents how Boy Scouts is supposed to work so that they can ask questions and demand that the program be run as it was designed and as it has worked so well for so many years. Venividi's suggestion for me as a Webelos Den Leader to read the Patrol Leader's Handbook and the Scoutmaster's Handbook will be a great step in the right direction. I might suggest to our council training person that she develop a course for Webelos Den Leaders that describes Boy Scouts and gives advice for Troop selection, which then could be passed on to the parents. Ken K.

Thanks so much for the replies!! I'm a bit bummed since there are a limited number of troops in the area and each that I've seen so far has its oddities and issues. I'm actually more bothered by the big tent method of camping that the virtual patrol issue - though I understand the problem there too. At least I am a bit wiser and can ask smarter questions. Thanks for the tip on the Patrol Leader handbook. I love reading those books anyway. I'm going to hijack this thread slightly because an odd question came to mind: Focusing on commonly used Eureka Timberline tents, which size do you use figuring on 2-3 boys per tent? The "2-man" or the "4-man"? I'm not talking backpacking or anything like that - just car camping. It seems that the 2-man would be a bit too small for 2 with gear and that the 4-man would be a bit too big for 2 - maybe just right for 3.

I'm currently a Webelos Den Leader for boys who will be moving into Boy Scouts this coming February, so we have been going to a few activities with local troops, planning more activities for this fall, and talking with boys who are the troops. During those activities/discussions I'm seeing/hearing two things that bother me, and I'm wondering if these are more common than I thought: #1: The troops are medium-sized with maybe 20-50 boys, but because of other competing activities, only a relatively small number of boys go on any particular camping trip. For any given weekend these boys create what I think of as a virtual patrol, with the boys working together to cook meals and cleanup. I assume there are patrols at Troop Meetings, but haven't attended one yet - later this year we will. From what I've seen the adults were heavily involved in the cooking & cleaning. It reminding me more of Cub Scouts. #2: I heard from one of the boys that their relatively small troop only uses one very large tent (he said it was a 10-man tent), and everyone crams into that tent. I guess even if some boys bring their own tents they somehow fasten the tents together around the big tent to create "sleeping rooms". While it sounds interesting, it also sounds kind of odd to me. Is this commonplace? As a youth I really enjoyed camping, cooking, and competing in troop activities with my patrol-mates, and sleeping two boys per tent in those wonderful canvas Voyager tents. I guess I pictured something more like that for my own boy.

I'll echo what others have said about cheap knives. I'm not so worried about it falling apart. My concern is that really cheap steel blades may simply never sharpen. The poor boys will spent unreasonable effort trying to sharpen them but it just won't happen. Right now the best deals I can come up with on folding knives are the Opinels (a French knife - not high on the "cool" factor though) for about $10-$12, and the more modern Ka-Bar/Dozier Folding knives for about $20 (There are several models: Spear, Hunter, Clip Point). Do a search for "Dozier" on http://www.kabar.com . My plan is to get my son a Ka-Bar/Dozier Folding Spear. The only really nice "cheaper than dirt" type thing I've found out there that actually works very well are the "IN-20/45" whistles for $2.95 per dozen at http://www.orientaltrading.com . They are honestly as loud as my good Fox 40 and WindStar whistles. Get a bunch for your boys if going into the woods!!

I'm a Webelos II den leader. My advice would be to have the boy work toward his Webelos Badge this year and not focus on the Arrow of Light. of course he'll have to work on the Citizen & Fitness activity badges on his own (or with the den leader's guidance) since the other boys earned them last year, but that is doable. I would certainly have him graduate to Boy Scouts along with his den. To not do so could bring enough embarassment or hard feelings that Scouting could lose him.

Welcome to Scouting and this forum!! Typically, Webelos I boys are in 4th grade and work toward the Webelos badge of rank. Webelos II boys are in 5th grade and work toward the Arrow of Light badge of rank. Let me clarify that any boy who meets the age/grade requirements can join a BOY Scout troop. They don't have to have been in Cub Scouts, nor do they have to have earned any type of Cub Scout rank. All the requirements are listed in the Webelos Handbook. Webelos Badge: Though I won't cover the details here, basically they need to learn about the Webelos badge & uniform, learn the Boy Scout salute, sign, handshake, oath, law, motto, and slogan, and the Outdoor Code. They also have to complete three activity badges: Citizen, Fitness, and one other. Arrow of Light: Again, I won't list everything, but basically they have to complete the Webelos badge, show knowledge of requirements to become a Boy Scout (oath, law, motto, slogan, ...), earn five additional activity badges (must include Readyman & Outdoorsman), visit a Boy Scout troop meeting & outdoor activity, and partcipate in a Webelos overnight campout or day hike. A common question is "Can a boy who is starting Cub Scouts in 5th grade earn his Arrow of Light?". The most common answer is "It is possible, but so difficult that it might not be considered a reasonable expectation. It might be best for the boy to focus on earning his Webelos badge." A good on-line source for this information is at http://www.geocities.com/~pack215/home.html Look for the link called "The Virtual Requirements Guide."

That's funny. Scout, did you watch the same show last night? As I recall Newt was on the Hannity & Colmes show on Fox News.