kenk

As I recall the Whittling Chip card can actually be earned at any age. If your den has boys that are dying to use knives, I'd rather teach them the Whittling Chip skills early for safety's sake. I really like the idea of having them to a bunch of whittling on soap with a metal butter knife. Do it on a pastic tarp - it makes quite a mess. Our den didn't do it until the Bear year. I still emphasize that it is up to the parents whether the boy is allowed to bring a pocketknife to approved events.

First, our Pack is one of two sister packs in the same schools. At one time there was one Pack, but it grew too large and was split into two. Both packs draw out of the same elementary school (k-3) and middle school (4-8), and we hold recruiting together. The only difference is that one has pack meetings on Wednesday nights and the other has them on Thursday nights. First we see if any boys/parents have a definite pack preference (to stay with siblings/close friends/specific nights), then we split up the remaining boys to try to even out pack & den sizes. Second, let me specify that each Pack typically has one den of each grade level, though I recall one "year" that had two dens. Our current wolf den is way too big at 12, but the leader and parents all want to stay together, but the den leader did is "own" recruiting and was quite succesful. The den leader is going through his second generation (his older boy crossed into Boy Scouts last year, so he is VERY experinced and loves it. I myself find my den of 6 boys to be a wonderful size. Our goal has been to have at least one healthy den of each grade and consider a second one a great bonus, so long as it doesn't pull too many boys from our sister pack. Each pack will typically want: Tiger Cubs: 10ish - this is because we have a fair dropout rate and a few add-ons later. A Tiger Cub den of 10 seems to end up with 6-8 boys by Bear or Webelos. Wolf: 2-4 new boys. This helps make up for loss due to boys (actually usually parents) who decide scouting isn't for them. Older grades only see 1 or 2 new boys per year. I don't recall getting a new boy just before Webelos 2, but I suppose its happened.

Being a Webelos Den Leader who has a fair amount of map/compass/GPS experince I've been doing a lot of reading Troop websites to look for compass recommendations. Most match what is being said here - low end baseplate compasses are what are recommended. But this has led me to wonder what troops are teaching boys on how to handle magnetic declination. When I was a boy in Scouts the method taught was to draw magnetic north/south lines on the topo maps and then orient the meridian lines on the compass with the magnetic north/south lines. Is that still what is done? It seems the only other alternatives are: to mathematically adjust bearings (dangerous due to addition/subtraction errors), use compasses with adjustable declination (my preference), or to simply ignore declination (though in some far east & west part of the U.S. the declination could be as much as 15 or more degrees off of true north). What does your troop recommend for dealing with magnetic declination? By the way, my own favorite campasses for youth, though a bit more $, are: Suunto M-3 for about $20 - A fantastic compass for a decent price. It has gear-driven declintion adjustment, anti-slip rubber feet, luminous markings, and true meridian lines on the baseplate. I much prefer the needle on the standard version as opposed to the global needle. I'm a little concerned wreckless users could strip out the adjustment screw, but it comes with its own little aluminum screwdriver so hopefully this isn't an issue. Brunton 8010G for about $16 - I really like the "optical" green color - very easy to find if set in the grass. Declination is adjustable without a screwdriver, but because of the way this is done, the meridian lines are only on the bezel. They are quite useable, but instructors used to Silva-type compasses might not like it. Our Scout store sells the Brunton 9020G, which is smaller than the 8010G and a bit cheaper. It also has adjustable declination, BUT I don't like how its baseplate is the same size & shape both front and back of the bezel. It seems way too easy for a user to use the compass "backwards". There are other compasses I like better (Brunton Eclipse line and the Brunton 15TDCL), but they cost a bit too much for a young Scout.

Kittle, Call your local Council office and ask if they are planning to hold a Webelos Woods or similar. This is a Webelos-focused campout where the Webelos dens are paired with Boy Scout Troops and are exposed to Boy Scouting. Our Webelos den participated in a Webelos Woods last weekend. It was a blast for the parents and the boys. I continue to be so very impressed with Boy Scout youth and leaders.

There is a lot more to using a GPS than hitting a button. First, you have to make sure the GPS is set to the correct datum. Select the wrong datum and you can find yourself way off on your map. The data should be printed on the map. Second, all a GPS does is spit out your location in terms of a coordinate, typically a latitude/longitude set or a UTM coordinate. Neither of these is terribly obvious or "natural" to find on a map. I should mention that most electronic maps on mapping GPS's simply do not have sufficient detail for the electronic maps to be useful in the field. For the most part a simple rugged GPS is all you need. Most GPS users today will use UTM (universal transverse mercator) coordinates since the are very accurate in small scale (such as a USGS topo map). My guess very few Scout youth know how to read UTM coordinate, though they should. Here is a pretty good tutorial on use of GPS coordinate systems: http://www.maptools.com/tutorials.html This same site sells excellent little UTM grids and roamers. Some compasses have them too. To convert find your current location on a map using a GPS, you need to obtain the UTM coordinate from the GPS, draw UTM gridlines on the map (if not already printed on - they're usually drawn in blue), and then use a UTM grid or roamer to find the specific location on the map. At some point you'll probably want to enter the desired destination into your GPS. To do that, you'll need to use the UTM gridlines and a UTM grid or roamer to determine the UTM coordinates of the desired location. You'll need to enter those coordinates as a waypoint into the GPS (the exact method of doing that depends on the brand/model of GPS). Once you have your destination waypoint loaded into the GPS, most GPS models will output a direction of travel bearing and distance. Dial up the bearing on your compass and you're off. BUT, you'd better be sure if the bearing given by the GPS is based upon true north or magnetic north. If it is true north, then you'll either have to ajust the declination on your compass or do the adjustment manually. If you're good at counting paces, you can even keep track of when you're close. Most users do not keep the GPS on all the time since that consumes batteries. Now that was a bit more complicated than pressing a button ... wasn't it? If I were teaching a young person navigation skills, the combined use of map, compass, and GPS would be included. By the way, so far the best book I've seen on the subject is "GPS Land Navigation", by Michael Ferguson. The detailed information on GPS models is quite a bit outdated, but the coverage of the combined use of GPS, maps, and compasses is first rate.

Wow, you are getting very close to my idea for sheath knife tolerance!!! My original post suggested tolerance of reasonably-sized sheath knives that are carried in rigid containers (kitchen boxes, tackle boxes, ...) or larger packs (backpacks, larger duffles), with the emphasis that they not be carried on the belt, in pockets, or in small fanny/shoulder bags.

Hunt, Can you point me to where BSA says one-on-many is OK? It would sure make life a lot easier.

A Webelos Den Leader here ... I haven't heard the "green bars" term before. I take it that refers to an Assistant Patrol Leader, a Patrol Leader, or a Senior Patrol Leader. Is that correct? Do Assistant Patrol Leaders also sign off on requirements? For some reason I was under the assumption that the Scoutmaster signed off on requirements, but I wondered how one person could take on such a large task. Use of "green bars" makes a lot more sense to me.

kittle, Read this section of the Guide to Safe Scouting on Camping: http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss03.html#aa It provides a lot of information about the sorts of camping that are allowed for each level of Scouting. Though camping is lots of fun for boys, my advice, with all due respect, is to approach it age-appropriately. Don't try to turn Cub Scouting into Boy Scouting. There will be plenty of camping opportunities for the boys when/if they become Boy Scouts.

I have no problem with burning "burnables" while backpacking - assuming such fires are legal and done safely (I recall hearing about a large forest fire that was started by someone burning their used toilet paper), BUT I don't think it is appropriate when "car camping". Unnecessary burning kicks out all sorts of pollutants and the paper ash is messy and a risk to tent flies. There is no reason why metal, aluminum, glass, cardboard and plastics can't be hauled out and recycled. Paper and messy stuff (such as foil used during cooking) can be baged and deposted in an appropriate trash bin. In some places where sufficient cat holes cannot be dug even fecal matter needs to be packed out using "poop tubes". schleining and hacimsaalk12 commented that burying the unburned remains is OK. If you are in absolute wilderness that would only see a handfull of visitors each year, then I'd agree with burying unburned remains, but most do not backpack or camp in such areas. They use the same trails or camp areas that thousands, if not tens of thousands, of people use every year. If each of those groups starts digging little cat holes to bury their unburned garbage, it not only disrupts the ground cover and promotes erosion, but there is also a good chance that many visitors will tend to bury their trash in the same general area. Considering that metals and plastics take many decades to decompose, that area soon becomes what I would refer to as a "landfill". If you don't want to carry it out, then simply don't carry it in.

Alright, I have to tell you a funny story ... Last weekend my son & I were at Webelos Woods. When I came back my wife told me this story: I guess my 8 year old daughter was running around outside with our three dogs. At some point she came inside and proclaimed with great pride that she had just gone to the bathroom outside "just like the dogs". She had peed and pooped on the ground. My wife was horrified and explained to her that that was simply not appropriate. They headed out the door with a plastic bag to clean up only to find the subject of my daughter's pride was no longer there. Apparently one of the dogs had clean up the mess for her. Ewwwww! >> Understanding that use of proper sanitation such as portable toilets or bags that can be packed out ... Given the situation you are facing, assuming your are not backpacking, I've always thought I might try to use a toilet seat that fastens on the top of a 5 gallon plastic bucket. Cabela sells them at http://www.cabelas.com/products/Cpod0009518.jsp . You could even cut a large hole in the bottom of the bucket and set it over a cat hole dug into the ground. Of course there are some "targeting" issues with that.

Regarding tobaco use: The only Council camp I've been to (with Cub Scouts) requires adults to smoke in the parking lot. Unfortunately many adults smoke on the part of the parking lot right next to where the U.S. Flag is. That puts them immediately adjacent to youth. To me that is just not appropriate in Scouting. First, let me say that I do not smoke, but I have absolutely nothing against smokers and have a number of very good friends & coworkers who do smoke. Though it is not policy, I would much rather have tobacco use occur completely out of sight of the youth. All the camp would have to do is to put up a section of 8 ft privacy fence on the far edge of the parking lot and have smokers stand on the other side of the fence. It isn't intended as punishment or degradation. Its just trying to keep tobacco use away from the boys.

Thanks for all the replies and advice. To clarify on the type of latrine, it was a three-holer with a large trough and no inside lock on the door nor a sign on the door. I think my best best was to wait until the latrine was empty and then use the last stall rather than the trough, and to keep myself "covered" as much as possible. Then if boys had entered, once finished, get out a quickly as possible. tortdog said: "Would Scout leaders also not enter a public restroom when there is a Scout inside?" That view concerns me. His question is the foundation of my questions 2 & 3. The Youth Protection says very clearly "One-on-one contact between adults and youth members is not permitted. In situations that require personal conferences, such as a Scoutmaster's conference, the meeting is to be conducted in view of other adults and youths." It doesn't say one-on-one contact is usually not permitted, or that it is not permitted when convenient, or that it is not permitted except in public places, or that it is not permitted execpt in places where someone else could walk in at any time. I've talked to some people at work, and they say it is OK to have one adult and multiple youth contact (one-on-many). I disagree with that. If this was the case, the second sentence of the above quote would end in "... the meeting is to be conducted in view of other adults OR youths.", but it doesn't. It says "adults AND youths". In my view, when youth are present there must no fewer than two adults present, with the exception of the parent/son one-on-one.

I'm a Webelos Den Leader. Last weekend I attended Webelos woods with my son. Lots of fun. Issue #1: On Saturday I asked the district execs there if there were any youth protection or 2-deep leadership issues with me, a leader, being alone in camp alone with my own son. They said that was no problem, which makes sense since we spent the night in the same tent anyway. Question #1: Do you agree that it is OK for parents and their sons to be in one-on-one situations even if the parent is a leader? Its an odd question - the answer seems obvious, but I thought I'd ask to be sure. Issue #2: This brings up the latrine question. On the same day I walked with my son to the latrine. He headed to one of the stalls and I headed to the urinal trough. I found myself worried that a youth might come in and see an adult (me) urinating, so I tried to stand with my back to the door (as much as possible) so that my privates wouldn't be in view. After I was done, but before I put myself back together, a youth walked into the latrine and headed to the urinal. Again, I was quite concerned, finding myself now in a one-on-one situation with a youth. I called to my son that I'd meet him outside and exited the latrine. Question #2: How should leaders/adults handle "group" urinal troughs? Question #3: How do you leaders/adults prevent one-on-one situations in latrines? The only solution I can think of is to always take another adult to the latrine with me. Wait a minute, that is what women have been doing for years (sorry ladies, I couldn't resist). While I'm asking ... Question #4: Do you ALWAYS demand boys use the buddy system - even when they are simply going to the latrine a few yards down the road in a Scout camp? Your answers are very much appreciated.

Also, if you haven't read Cody Lundin's book "98.6 Degrees: The Art of Keeping Your Ass Alive", I highly recommend it. Its a relatively short fun read and has lots of practical information.

Dan - What are the tent stakes for? Are you planning to sleep in your rain suit if it rains at night? Are you bringing a map? What are you carrying water in - your sierra cup? Do you need gear to sanitize water? I might encourage you to consider carrying an Adventure Medical Kits Pocket Survival Pak. It contains many of the items I'm listing below in a convenient 3.9 oz package. My list would include: Lightweight tent or tarp (if overnight trip) First aid kit (could be very small & simple) Water bottle(s) (32 oz wide-mouth Nalgene) Butane lighter (instead of matches - many more lights) Spark-Lite fire starter w/ Fire-tabs (as backup to matchs or lighter) Broad-brimmed hat Sunscreen in small bottle Whistle (Windstorm or Fox 40 on same lanyard as the compass) Signal mirror (Star Flash) 55 gallon trash bag (as emergency shelter) Clear plastic "transpiration" bag (for collecting water from plant branches) 36" of small plastic aquarium-type tube (for collecting water from crevises Backpacking sponge (for collectign water from dew) A few (4) long zip ties (lots of uses) At least 25 feet of cord (paracord or polycord) Small (10') role of orange or pink surveying tape One thing to consider is to separate out what will be carried with you ALL the time - as a survival kit. If you haven't visited http://www.equipped.com , I suggest you take a look.

I agree 100% with Bob on this one. Youth protection is there to protect the youth from any and all adults - regardless of their sexual persuasion or gender. Homosexuality IS an immoral behavior. I myself certainly don't "fear" homosexuals at all. I see homosexuality as something that is morally wrong - much like sexual relations between a human and an animal (bestiality), or between two closely related family members (incest). Not that I'm insinuating that a person who engages in homosexual behavior has a higher propensity toward bestiality or incest ... they are seperate behaviors. While some could (not saying that they do) claim that these behaviors are genetically pre-disposed, I am firmly resolved that these behaviors are immoral. I hold no ill-will toward people who practice homosexuality (between two adults) or incest (between two ADULTS). These actions, if done in privacy, clearly don't affect me. But these activities are still immoral. I do hold ill-will toward people who practice bestiality, since the animal's fundamental rights are being violated. I do feel that all animals have some fundamental rights, including the right to "humane" treatment. (yes, I eat meat) As evmori reminded us: "On my honor I will do my best...To keep myself...morally straight." Immoral behaviors have no place in Scouting.

"There is no reason why unmarried boys and girls need to be going on overnighters together. Any organization in which a substantial portion of the activities include overnighters should not include young men and women. Such only invites sexual misconduct, and would leave the sponsoring organizations exposed to liability." Isn't that what the Venturing program is doing with boys and girls 14 years and older? I actually envision fewer problems with a co-ed program with younger kids. Its not that the program advancement requirements are boy-only material. Most of the requirements are quite gender-neutral. While there are likely to be girls out there that would hate to camp or hike, there are pobably nearly as many boys who feel the same. I certainly have no problem with female leaders in Boy Scouts (or with male leaders in Girl Scouts). The real reason that Boy Scouts isn't co-ed is because, well, that is just the way it is. There is nothing wrong with having a PRIVATE program just for boys. It works very well. If it ain't broken, don't fix it. The boys have Boy Scouts and the girls have Girl Scouts.

My council camps also forbid sheath knives. Do your patrols include fixed blade knives in their patrol kitchen gear? My guess is that most do. If so, then fixed blade knives WITHOUT sheaths are OK? If the kitchen knives are in sheaths, then are they forbiden? I'm REALLY not trying to get into a battle of words. I'm really not a very radical person and the first to tell people that if the rules say something isn't allow, then it isn't allowed. I'm just trying to understand what exactly the councils' intensions are. Do they not want boys to carry fixed blade knives in sheaths on their belts? That I can understand. Do they not want boys/patrols to bring fixed blade knives to camp at all? Are kitchen knives forbidden during backpacking too? Do they want to limit fixed blade knives to appropriate tasks, such as filleting fish or other food preparation? Could a boy bring a fillet knife along in their fishing gear? Even GTSS admits a sheath knife is good for filleting fish. My thought is that there is a time & place for the carrying/use of a fixed blade knife (whether stored in a sheath or not) even in council campgrounds. Its usually associated with food preparation or survival skills. I also think that the current batch of council leaders have been so indoctrinated with the "Sheath knives are forbidden" & "Sheath knives are stupid" thinkspeak that they are ignoring the realities. I suspect that most would even admit that sheath knives are OK in the right situation, but the are under tremendous pressure to characterize sheath knives as forbidden or stupid.

I had to smile when one of my distict execs brought a small sheath knife to tonight's roundtable to help cut up meat used as part of a dutch oven demonstration. He even smiled and sort of apologized while admiting that they were "forbidden". I quickly pointed out that they are NOT forbidden at all. I'm not one of those people who thinks Scout leaders are nuts when they forbid sheath knives ... But, one of my personal goals in the next few years is to try to get my Council to lighten up on the "sheath knives are stupid" and/or "sheath knives are forbidden" montras (actual statements made by my council execs over the years), and recognize that fixed blade knives indeed have a place in Scouting, especially when it comes to food preparation and some limited survival techniques. My own recommendation would be to allow small and medium length blades (maybe less than 5 or 6") and require they be carried in rigid containers (frame packs, kitchen boxes, etc....) but not carried on belts or in small bags(to avoid sheath failure during falls). As most of you know, the official GTSS statement is simply to "avoid large sheath knives". Even the GTSS admits that a large sheath knife is good for "cleaning fish". They are much better than pocketknives for most food preparation. I'm not sure how this "avoid" language evolved into to "forbid" language. I myself feel the best combination is a BSA pocketknife in my pocket for the vast majority of cutting needs, and a small sheath knife in my pack (actually in my kitchen gear).

I'm confused. Are women banned from being adult leaders in a Boy Scout Troop? Assuming the answer is NO, then here is a slightly different question: I found a Boy Scout Troop website that has a requirement - they say it comes from BSA Policy - that in order for a female leader or parent to attend overnight camping, there must be no less than two attending females. That is to say that a lone female leader or parent may not attend Scout overnight campout. Can someone point me to that policy? Also, regarding the age of adults, the GTSS says: "Two registered adult leaders or one registered leader and a parent of a participant, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required on all trips and outings." I interpret that to mean that only ONE leader/parent at a trip or outing needs to be 21 years of age or older. Even if we were talking about a Boy Scout Troop here, why couldn't Ventercrew125 become a registered ASSISTANT adult leader after she turns 18 and then join the trip? The only problem I see is the slight inconvenience of having to provide for separate facilities for showering, latrines, and sleeping - but that certainly shouldn't be too a big deal. I feel like I missed some BSA gender rules.

I'm confused. Are women banned from being adult leaders in a Boy Scout Troop? Assuming the answer is NO, then here is a slightly different question: I found a Boy Scout Troop website that has a requirement - they say it comes from BSA Policy - that in order for a female leader or parent to attend overnight camping, there must be no less than two attending females. That is to say that a lone female leader or parent may not attend Scout overnight campout. Can someone point me to that policy? Also, regarding the age of adults, the GTSS says: "Two registered adult leaders or one registered leader and a parent of a participant, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required on all trips and outings." I interpret that to mean that only ONE leader/parent at a trip or outing needs to be 21 years of age or older. Even if we were talking about a Boy Scout Troop here, why couldn't Ventercrew125 become a registered ASSISTANT adult leader after she turns 18 and then join the trip? The only problem I see is the slight inconvenience of having to provide for separate facilities for showering, latrines, and sleeping - but that certainly shouldn't be too a big deal. I feel like I missed some BSA gender rules.

We usually just have den leaders build their own supplies as needed and have them submit expenses to the treasurer. At least in my den, many of the expenses are often just absorbed by parents hosting the particular meetings. The graduating Webelos den leader usually hands off left over supplies to the younger dens.

I once made up a sort of pin the tail on the donkey game, but using a compass. Its been a big hit. All you need is a simple compass, a bed sheet, and a pad of post-its. Color one post-it a bright color and post it on a wall - that is the donkey (the target). Now explain to the boys how compasses work. Show them that they can move the bezel to "box" the needle, spin around, turn their bodies to box the needle while leaving the bevel alone, and they'll be pointing in the same direction. Initially the would do this game with lots of adult help, but eventually they could do it on their own: Tell them to box the needle while pointing the compass at the target. Then we'd give them a post-it with their name on it, put a sheet over their heads, and spin them gently around. Then we'd tell them to turn their body to box the needle and then walk ahead with a post-it in their hand. Again, at first an adult often would have to join them under the sheet to give guidance. We also would have an adult walk backwards in front of them to make sure they didn't walk hard into the wall. We'd rotate through the boys and then when done we'd stand back to see the scattering of post-its relative to the target. Its a lot of fun and teaches them some of the basics of compass use. Last year, when they were Bears, I created a very simple compass course using a 3-4-5 right triangle (I can't remember what the angles in degrees were - see http://www.themathpage.com/aTrig/trigonometry-of-right-triangles.htm ). I created 6 starting points in a line using bean bags and had them use the compasses (I made sure we had enough compasses for each boy - some parents brought some) to run the course, giving them an angle to set the compass to and then a number of paces to walk. Because of the geometry of the course, it really didn't matter how long each boy's pace was, as long as they were consistent and set angles correctly the finish should bring them right back to the starting bean bag, but I didn't tell them that until they were done. Then we'd compare how close they were to the starting point. The first them they ran it, they had their parent helping them. The second time they did it on their own. It was only after the second time did I tell them where they were supposed to have ended. Another time we simply had the boys buil paper airplanes and try to fly them into a large box. I was surprized to find that none of the boys and only a few of the parents knew how to fold a paper airplane.

I haven't had any problems with my Princeton Tech Aurora LED headlamp. I don't tend to have it on while sitting still though. It is only on when I'm walking, setting up camp, or doing other chores. I can see where bugs might find me if I was standing still cleaning dishes, but to date we usually have dinners cleaned up before it gets too dark, so it isn't a problem. Also, I tend to keep the light level at the lowest usable setting to conserve batteries. Keeping the light low may help reduce the attraction by insects.