John-in-KC

Lisa, Granted, Amtrak uses a "fare bucket system" similar to the airlines, but $400 RT on Amtrak Detroit-Raton is a pretty good planning factor... before your Council asks for a group discount! Assuming they leave from Detroit, the train leaves 723AM, arriving Chicago Noon. TRUST ME: Munchies on Amtrak are DEAR. Ask your Council if they send a sack lunch, if you send a sack lunch, or if they find a local fast food joint near Union Station Chicago (I mod an Amtrak board and am asking what''s easy walking distance now). Trains 3/4, the Southwest Chief, are scheduled out of Chicago at 3:15 PM arriving Raton 1056AM the next day. That means dinner and breakfast for certain on the train. I''ll try to get prices from my friends; both for the dining car and for mini-pizzas etc on the lounge car. Please note: Lounge car attendant will not let you nuke any food you bring yourself. For the back-haul: Train scheduled out of Raton at 5:17PM, arriving Chigago 320PM the next day. That means dinner, breakfast and lunch onboard. Train to Detroit leaves 6PM and arrives 1232AM next morning... More will follow...

Yep. That''s him. Our Brianbuf wannabe aka "He who must not be named..." As Ron Weasley says in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows: "DON''T SAY HIS NAME!!!"

OK. Now it sounds like you are using a modification of Scoutreach, which is our way to provide volunteers to urban-core and other non-traditional units (juvenile hall Troops). Frankly, I see a carrot and stick approach to parents. The carrot is volunteering = lower cost of Scouting (the kind of money you propose is serious and has to come from somewhere). The stick is: If we go to paying leaders, the cost per boy per year increases from X to Y-square.

Venividi, I think what you have to say is valid, but I think it has to go out at two levels: It should, properly, go through the Scouts. It should also, properly, go through the parents, since it seems these days allowances are not that, they are fees for chores (that''s what I''m hearing from other parents in my neck of the woods). The approach needs to be "Together Everybody Achieves More (TEAM)" The goal should be "Everyone who fully participates will share in a troopwide payment of summercamp fees. The more we sell, the less each pays." TC!! gets to define "full participation." PLC can nominate a number, but in my Council, 10 days of LT Camp will be $255 (boy OR leader) in 2008. 30 boys is 7500 bux, and that''s real money. As a former CC, I''d say 210 in sales (about 70 to the Troop in popcorn, about 95 to the Troop in Xmas wreaths) would be "full participation." You want the bar high enough that a superb seller does not feel slighted by someone just meeting the minimum. The object is to get kids and parents to commit to the fundraising. For those who choose not to participate at all, or participate at less than the floor, they get what they get off their fee. With this approach, Scout and parent have 3 ways to participate in the fundraiser. BTW, fundraising is an ideal time to put the kids through Salesmanship MB.

I''m recalling deep past, since I cannot find my 1965 OA Handbook. As I recall, the responsibilities are similar in nature, but limited in scope, to that of your single District/Chapter. I know this much: 1) Chapter officers need to be an excellent conduit of information to OATR''s and Scoutmasters. This falls mainly to the Chief, the V/C of program, and the Elections Chair. 2) Chapter officers need to design some fun things for Arrowmen to do. Our Chapter has done an Arrowman bowling night and an Arrowmen campout. 3) Chapter officers need to WORK THE ELECTION PROCESS. There are too many examples here of not-fully-trained election teams doing things bluntly outside National policy. 4) Chapter officers need to provide support to the Lodge officers. I''ve seen HOW MANY ordeal weekends now where the LEC runs crazy, because they aren''t leveraging the bodies, minds, and skills of the Chapter officers. Gung Ho does not mean "HOOAH!", as Gunny will tell you. It means all pull together. 5) The holidays are coming. "With the guidance of our Maker"... is that not part of Mateu's several speeches? A holiday service project would provide blessings beyond measure... be it adopt a family, special Scouting for Food campaign, you name it! HTH(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

I would agree with Mr Robertson, except I'll bet the new District will try to re-align relationships. Time for the Pack and Troop CORs to make a simple comment to Council: Put us in the same District. If not, they should raise a stink at Council Executive Board meetings, asking Who''s the certifiable idiot? I don't like to use scathing public sarcasm, at it violates the general rule of praise in public, damn in private. Sometimes, though, it's a necessary tool in the box.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

My Pack found the Supply Corporation vests too expensive. Bought one of each size some years ago, and made a pattern. Now, the Moms of the Pack make them up each Fall. Win-win as far as parents are concerned!

Working here.

If you want a contract, then I want serious money. I'm in Scouting to serve the youth, but if it becomes a complete pain in the place where the sun does not shine, then I'm going to find another youth serving activity for my child. With your contract, you've taken something FUN and made it NOT FUN. I can go to the office to have that experience. So... if you want a contract, I want SERIOUS MONEY.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Stosh: In a word, YES!!!! BTW, it takes FIVE Scouter Forum members to change the mantles on a Coleman propane lantern: 1) Scouter fumblefingers (HEY! I resemble that remark )who breaks all but the last two mantles 2) Scouter who disassembles the lantern and breaks the globe 3) Scouter who makes sure the lantern is disconnected from the propane source 4) Scouter who checks the Scouter who disconntected the lantern from the propane source... AND 5) The Scouter who goes to the nearest HARDWARE STORE to get more mantles and a replacement globe!

A few Cub camping specific policy blurbs from the National Council, courtesy of the G2SS: http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss03.html Overnight camping by Tiger, Wolf, and Bear Cub Scout dens as dens is not approved and certificates of liability insurance will not be provided by the Boy Scouts of America. Tiger Cubs may participate in boy-parent excursions, day camps, pack overnighters, or council-organized family camping. Wolf and Bear Cub Scouts and Webelos Scouts may participate in a resident overnight camping program operating under BSA National Camping School-trained leadership and managed by the council. A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by an adult. In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of a parent-approved adult. Joint Webelos den-troop campouts including the parents of the Webelos Scouts are encouraged to strengthen ties between the pack and troop. Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips. Overnight activities involving more than one pack must be approved by the council. Council-organized family camps must be conducted in accordance with established standards as given in National Standards for Council-Organized Family Camping, No. 13-408. Pack Overnighters These are pack-organized overnight events involving more than one family from a single pack, focused on age-appropriate Cub Scout activities and conducted at council-approved locations (councils use Pack Overnighter Site Approval Form, No. 13-508). If nonmembers (siblings) participate, the event must be structured accordingly to accommodate them. BSA health and safety and youth protection guidelines apply. In most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult. At least one adult on a pack overnighter must have completed Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO, No. 34162) to properly understand the importance of program intent, youth protection guidelines, health and safety, site selection, age-appropriate activities, and sufficient adult participation. Permits for campouts shall be issued locally. Packs use Local Tour Permit Application, No. 34426. To the matter at hand: I''m almost 51, and I will have two Army field mats and a lightly inflated air mattress in my backpacking tent this coming weekend for our District New Cub Family Overnighter.

Play that hook carefully Lisa, when you set it, you want it to set HARD Then it''ll be time to get him to the training. (Remind him at some point that DC is a POR all the way to Eagle ) Congratulations on what he''s done so far!!

Given what we know of the story at this point, Lisa''Bob and I are in utter agreement, hersheygirl. Time for you to have an offsite sit-down over coffee with the CC and COR. There''s a hole in the information you''ve received to this point, which is the "WHY". Let us know how this story develops

Trev, With respect, There IS ongoing academic debate about causality for global warming. Eagle Son wants to be a meteorologist/atmospheric scientist, he''s a HS senior now. We''ve spent some time at particular area universities, looking at programs. Three of these are State Flagship schools (as in such as the University of Nebraska). He''s talked with PhD full professors on the topic. Global Warming exists, to a man/woman they say that. Human causality? One was finishing doing a juried review of a journal paper: Thesis was causality is open. Lisa: I appreciate your bringing your academic skills in teaching poltical science to our Forum. My simple comment as to this particular teacher is he''s probably in the single worst County in our Nation to discussion repudiation of citizenship... his county is one of the extra-legal immigrant portals. Of course, any of us can have an incredible dumb attack, and that''s what I ascribe his project to... YIS

Here are the first three questions you need to ask: 1) What equipment must my lakefront have to open operations? 2) What are my staffing requirements and acceptable training levels? 3) What equipment inspections must I put my gear through to begin operations? Since it is a District event (perhaps part of a day camp), indeed National Camp Standards apply. Somebody in your Council is Lakefront Director at your Council resident camp. He''ll be able to give you accurate answers. So should the Reservation Director of your Scout Camp. If he punts on you, please come back. I may not be Camp School trained, but I know people who are, and who can provide technical assistance to you. YIS

Welcome to the Forums. $100 is not excessive for annual Troop dues. That''s what my Troop charged six years ago when Eagle son was a tenderfoot. We did it in two increments, February at our recharter and August right after camp. February increment included BSA fees and Boy''s Life, so about 25 was unit funding. August payment was all unit funding. I''ve never heard of a Pack, Troop or Crew forbidding participation because of popcorn sales levels. Because of that... I''d look at other area troops before committing to this one. If you choose another Troop, (and there are lots of things to look at in selecting a Troop), I''d send a blunt letter to the Institutional Head of the Chartered Partner, explaining why you didn''t select his organization. Keep us informed, please.

Lee... Most of us here are ADVISER age. This is a PROGRAM MEMBER decision. Get a contest going in your lodge! I''d also take a look at eBay, and see what various lodge, section conclave, region and NOAC patches look like. There''s a wealth of ideas out there, you just don''t have to have us grown-ups send down one "from on high." As for me... I do like the 1965 era profile Plains Indian used on the OA handbook...

Lisa, I took my Roundtable Staff training through Commissioner''s College. I agree with emb021. I cannot address the quality of instruction in your neck of the woods. Maybe Beavah can, if you contact him offlist. OTOH, I''d unconditionally recommend anyone around Kansas City to take the Heart of America Council''s college. I know several of the volunteers who run it; good, dedicated and well-trained people all. My only problem with my home area College is it conflicts with a Scouting event I''m alreay committed to supporting I think part of the question for both of us, Lisa, involves "will we stay in Scouting after our sons move along?" If your answer is yes, then Commissioner''s College is one path to continuing volunteer training in program and in program support of Scouting. For me, I answer that question yes. Long story short, the Adult Association Method of Scouting works for us grown-ups as well as the kids

SR751Fox, We''re at the point where I''m going to say you need to talk with your Scout Reservation Ranger or Professional Staff Director. Specific qualifications of lifeguards, specific equippage of your lakefront, specifics of the program are not in the scope of the G2SS. Instead, they are the realm of National Camping Standards. This is why we pay the Professional Service

You mean like me?

From The Guide to Safe Scouting: For Cub Scouts:Canoeing, kayaking, rowing, and rafting for Cub Scouts (including Webelos Scouts) are to be limited to council/district events on flat water ponds or controlled lake areas free of powerboats and sailboats. http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss02.html Appendix 1, Age-Appropriate Activities, says the same thing. It''s not boldface, but it has been in the past in the online edition. Sorry not to give you an it''s OK, but as I read things, it''s beyond the scope of Cubbing.

Two if you say "Venture Scouts." One to get the bulb changed, and one to listen to emb021 say "They''re VENTURERS." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ None if it''s Brianbuf ... he ran away.

Give a call to Ranch Headquarters, now that it''s off-season, and talk with the PD. There is rental equipment available, I''m not sure how much. As far as cost, set the goal for a 2-year fundraising cycle, and talk to area troops (even in neighboring councils) which have done it. Beyond that, talk to Greyhound about transportation. It''s not an airline and it''s not Amtrak, but if you have to be budget minded, so be it. Also take a look at Northern Tier HA base... I guess what I''m saying is "Is the goal a solid HA for your youth, or the Philmont experience? I''d make this a youth decision for certain, with parents near the table. Visions, goals, ways and means... gee, sounds like a ticket item...

Kansas City has a BSA Supply Division Scout Shop. The manager is pretty good people. If they are made or licensed by BSA, she''ll know. 816-942-9333 gets you the receptionist at Heart of America Council. Ask her for the Scout Shop.

That our Brianabuf wannabe, "He whose name must not be spoken" (but it starts with the letter after "i" and ends with the letter before "n") has gone quiet?(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)