Stosh

What is nice and what is functional doesn't add up for DenLeaderScouter. Yes I would love to have a troop of 50 scouts, boy-led, all of who will eventually Eagle and be great young men. Well, on a more functional level, I'm happy if the boys boys I have grow and develop into great young men. That's not settling for second best, it's just being practical considering the circumstances. Stosh

Never hurts to try. Your combination of boys might just love it. If not, try something else and keep trying until whatever it is you do for your boys, they benefit from it. It's all for the boys~! Stosh

How are you going to keep a parent from observing? They can drive up and observe all they wish. Observing is one thing, hanging around with nothing to do is another. It would be one thing to call a group of adults who are registered and have a troop function (CC, MC, ASM, etc.) have YPT, medical forms, etc. having an adult leader "patrol", but does that automatically assume that a parent patrol would be the same thing? If that be such, just call it what it is an adult leader patrol. Parent patrol defines something altogether different. Stosh

There's no reason a boy run program can't develop to full maturity with 2 cows and a few chickens on a camp out too. Of course as SM, I really don't want to spend my activity time keeping the cows and chickens out of the boys' way either.... Stosh I'm not trying to be snarky here. It's just that I really don't see the functional purpose of a bunch of adults hanging around doing nothing except being tempted to "help" the boys by interfering in what their PL's should have already planned out. If he hasn't then the SPL will take care of it, not some random adult looking for something to do.

DLS: Welcome to the forum, and as Mattman578 said, thanks for being a Den Leader. You have clearly explained your situation and from where I stand, you have every right to limit yourself in the ways you defined. 1) Your den is working fine and has a great leader. 2) It has been suggested to add 4 additional boys. It would be disruptive to your boys, cause a mess at your home. 3) The other den has a problem, it is not your problem, don't let anyone guilt trip you into a process that is not good for you or your boys. 4) The other den needs to address it's problem and either get another leader or fold. 5) If they combine the two groups and you leave, they still have not solved their problem. Now if they can't find another leader there will be 9 boys missing out instead of just 4. I would simply inform the CC/CM that you are unable to take on 4 additional boys. It's a bit harsh, but you have a responsibility to your boys, your son, your family and yourself. Volunteers do have the right to say "NO" to anything they don't feel comfortable with without feeling guilty. This is why we have trained CC/CM's to handle situations like this. Let them do their job and you focus on yours. Stosh

You have 2 Web II, but how many Web I scouts? If you wish to move towards the patrol-method, you might want to consider a couple of options here. Let the boys decide who's going to be in each den/patrol. If you force the 2 Web II boys into two different groups, and they are best buddies, you will alienate their loyalties to the groups. Their loyalty to each other will benefit neither group. And if elected PL of the two dens, their loyalty to each other will keep them from being functional as PL's. If having both Web II in one den/patrol will disrupt the development/functionality of the other, then maybe just keep with the program as is and not worry about den/patrols. We're operating on very little background on these boys, but the idea you are floating out there is good, but your individual circumstances will dictate whether it will work or not for you in your situation. Stosh

KDD: The traditions in BSA make it very difficult to be flexible on the part of making choices. This pack's cubs always go to this troop. PERIOD. No exceptions. That might be the case in a very small town. But like churches, troops are all different. They have different emphasis, different personalities and different goals for the boys. Although not well known, the boys and their parents can pick any troop they wish to join. It is important to shop around so one has an idea of what's available. Be prepared to have your Web I boy select the poor troop because his older brother or his friends all want to go there. Otherwise, be prepared to have boys in two different troops. I have had that happen many times where families have boys in two different troops. This will occur more frequently when it is obvious to the boys the difference between adult-led and boy-led programs. Some boys like the adult-led, sit back and slide through to Eagle kinds of programs and then there are a few that prefer the roll up your sleeves and have to struggle to make things happen kind of program that they are expected to come up with. Just make sure both boys know they can do what they decide to do. I know that troop shopping is frowned on by some, but how else is one to make an informed decision without checking out the product in the first place? Stosh

SSScout: Stosh: I think we are on the same page here, but maybe different paragraphs. I am assuming we have a Troop trying to move INTO the Boy Led model. For that to happen, yeah, the boys need to be assured that "yes, you can do that" and not necessarily wait for the SM or ASMs to tell them what and when. So if one were moving to boy-led, why wouldn't the SM inform the boys up front that they can do what they want rather than having them find out later. My boys are never surprised to learn that "they can do that" because that was the first lesson they got as a boy-led program. Not only that it was reinforced that they had the authority to do it as well as the responsibility. SSScout: And, the boys need to know what to pass on in the way of skills and know-how, hence the teaching of the Guides/Instructor/PLs so they can teach the next group. Knife and axe skill and safety is taught and exampled. You need an experienced person to start the tradition. Yep, I said the SM had the responsibility to make sure the PL's were well trained to do their jobs. Guides and Instructors are just former PL's Same for a DC. Sound like a lot of PL's? What if there is only one patrol/one PL? Teach them ALL to be PL's! There's no rule that says that because you're not currently a PL doesn't mean you can't be trained as such. SSScout: And , yes, the SM needs to "insist" some. Insist the PL lead, not wait for something to happen. And Here's were we part company. I would prefer to have the patrol members insist the PL lead. If they aren't getting what they need out of their PL, all they have to do is select a different one. If the current PL needs 6 months for advancement, he had better be doing his job or he's going to come up short on his advancement requirement. Let the system work as it is supposed to be rather than impose SM insistence into it because he/she doesn't think it's up to snuff. SSScout: Insist that the SPL take charge of the PLC. Insist that his coffee be black, or whatever. When he sees something about to happen badly ("hey, watch this!!") , insist that folks step back and play the "what if" game. And now we have the SM running the show by insisting and directing everything. This is NOT the game plan for a boy-led program. Unless the "Hey, watch this!" involves a safety issue, then let it happen. Boy's will learn more from their mistakes than they will from their successes. Let them make the mistake and then work through the evaluation afterwards. Boys need to experiment their skills and talents, they need to be seekers. If the SM squashes that within the boys, they will simply shut down and it won't have been their fault. No one wants to fail, but no one wants to stay a child forever either. As SM you support that transition, not direct it. A good leader directs his own destiny. SSScout: The SM can and should insist that the other adults get trained and then step back to watch ... or demonstrate a skill, if asked... or lead the bird ID hike.... The SM can insist anything he/she wants when it comes to the adults. No problem, he directs and leads the program as designed by the boys, which means 90% of his time he's keeping adults out of the boy's hair. As one who is there to support, yes, if asked, he can support whatever the boys need. SSScout I was on the Scout Skills weekend of the home troop, and happened to be the first one up. I started the Adult stove and set a pot of water on to boil. When the first Scout got up and wandered over, he asked "what's that for?', indicating the pot of now boiling water. 1) Why are there boys wandering around in other camps without a buddy? Safety First! 2) If no other adults were up, you are treading on YPT thin ice. 3) Why did the boy think it was okay to come over to the adult area? I wasn't at the outing and only you know exactly what happened, but half awake with no coffee, the mind isn't always focused properly. Another scouter in another camp is just getting up and looks over towards your tent and sees a lone boy walking back to the scout area from the adult area and you are the only one moving around the camp. Your scouting career can end in a heartbeat. YPT is there for YOUR PROTECTION! .... end of "What If" game..... Anyway, it is obvious the PL hasn't been doing his job, but it's not the SM's job to do it for him. SSScout: I said, "what could you use boiling water for?" I eventually elicited a list of uses: Hot chocolate, oatmeal, wash dishes, hard boiled eggs, wash hands.... he wandered back to the Scout side of camp (30 so yards away!) and woke up his buddies. I later overheard a conversation about planning ahead to have the dish wash water on to boil before the meal was even cooking. Was I leading or somehow letting the Scouts make their own decision/mistakes? You were leading because that whole lesson should have been taught by the PL, not the SM and especially not under the circumstances described. Long before they got to that outing the PL should have had all his boys up to speed on camp duties. If it's a NSP, then the TG need step up and do his job of training the boys as PL's. I would have been a lot more impressed if this wandering scout would have wakened his PL and asked him what he needed to be doing to get ready for the day instead of wandering off to get that "guidance" from the SM. Unfortunately the next time this boy has a question/concern, who is he going to seek out for help? ...and unfortunately you are going to have to say to him, "Go ask your PL." in order to make up for the poor lesson you taught the morning of the hot water discussion. That's a little bit of the "What If" game you need to play on your own. Yes, over the years I have made all these mistakes and even yet get caught off guard at times. But like the boys, I learn from my mistakes, too. Stosh

I sure hope there's a girl standing on the shore and not just a bunch of boys if one of them is drowning. Stosh

Then start being nicer to yourself. Stosh

If the only PR one is doing for the troop is flyers and activities for a single pack, there's going to be a problem. The troop that is unknown in a community is not doing its part to be first and foremost in getting out and getting seen. If your community has a Memorial Day parade, you're unit needs to be there, same for the ceremony at the end. Look for opportunities to be visible in the community. Sell popcorn in front of the grocery store, not to sell popcorn, but to advertise scouting to people going in and out. Put your fliers with a big BSA logo on it on every community board you can find. Small town celebrations? volunteer to clean up. Do news releases for everything newsworthy your troop does. If you are relying only on some Cub pack to guarantee your future, you surely aren't going to have one. Stosh If this sounds a bit harsh, just remember, you can't do anything to change someone else's behavior, but you have complete control over your own.

Kids are a lot smarter than they let on. I've been working with youth for 40+ years and gave up on that assumption about 35 years ago. Never said I was anit-parent. All my best adult leadership is made up of parents. They are trained and committed to the program. I don't think it's the wrong attitude in this day and age especially where National is putting it's foot down on registrations, training, especially YPT, and trying it's best to deal with a PR nightmare of inappropriate adult situations in Scouting. I would find it strange that anyone would miss that recent emphasis especially around recharter time and the mad scramble to get everyone trained. Just this last week I got an email notifying me who has and who hasn't received their training in my new troop. Missed the point here. What's secrecy got to do with trained YPT registered leaders? If it's not practical to protect the boys by having qualified leadership moving them around, it might be a good time to revamp the troop structure so as to be able to handle it appropriately. Never said parents weren't allowed to see what is going on, just not involved in the program development with the boys I have adults sit in at all meetings with the boys so they know what's going on. They were all invited to come and observe on every outing I have run with my current troop.

I agree with Rick on some points. One parent who has a conflict might want to leave early, and that's okay, but when that triggers a mass exodus, it's hard to run the "Benefit of the Doubt" flag up my flagpole. Same for when dads are stepping in and dictating details as to how to get by on the minimum. Every case has to be dealt with separately. I do give the boys the benefit of the doubt a lot of the times. Usually the first time it's automatic, but when one sees patterns and certain behaviors, that benefit of the doubt turns into abuse rather quickly. It's not unkind to point out reality in a learning situation. Calling someone's response to a topic a "modern rant" may not be giving the poster the benefit of the doubt and be a wee bit unkind too. Stosh

Or, the SM teaches the first go-around PL's then the PL's take over their patrol and from there on,the registered/trained adults drink coffee and help only when asked. EDGE method is not a modeling process, it is an educational process and there is no place where BSA uses modeling as a teaching recommendation. The youth associate with adults. That may imply some interaction between the boys and adults as the boys develop their program. What that interaction is, is not nailed down all that much, but it is definitely not taking over and running the show on the part of the adults. SSScout, why is the SM INSISTING on everything? Is he really running the show? Instructs the patrols to elect their PL's? Or directs? Or INSISTS? SM sends them off to NYLT... again the SM is running the show. I don't care if the troop elects/selects/appoints an SPL and ASPL. It's their decision, the SM doesn't need to appoint anyone to be in that position. If they don't need a PLC, why would the SM insist them have one? And why would the boys come to the SM and say "you mean I can DO that?" unless the SM has been running the show and the boys aren't. As part of the teaching why weren't they told that right from the start? I don't know if it is just a hyper-sensitivity on my part, the way people write on the forums, or what, but I hear a lot of more "what we as adults are doing for the troop" than I hear "what the boys are doing for the troop". Who actually holds the power and authority in the troop? I have heard everything from the IH right down to the SM, but I hear very seldom any youth level positions having the real power and authority in the troop. It's gotta be really frustrating for the boys to have the responsibility to lead and no real power and authority to actually do it. Stosh

Back in the 70's BSA started competing with existing youth programs and became just another one out there. Instead of remaining unique, they sold out to market pressures. I noticed the other day that there's a new local program run by the parks and rec dept that takes young people on hikes out into the woods. Kids are signing up all over the place for it. Too back BSA doesn't have a program like that anymore. Stosh

One cannot develop true boy-led through osmosis. They need to be trained and then trusted. Part of their training can be doing their own thing, but then there has to be review and reflection when things go wrong and need to be "fixed" for next time. This is not accomplished by boys standing around watching adults, they do it by rolling up their sleeves and getting dirty which has nothing to do with watching a model patrol. The WB and SM/ASM training does not teach by showing, they teach by having the students do it. Same holds true for the boys. A "model" patrol of adutls is basically a waste of time and assumes the boys will actually learn. It just ain't gonna happen. They're going to be off on their own struggling and pretty much not worrying about what the adults are doing, they have enough on their plate to worry about. No matter how much one tries to pretty it up and justify it, it's just an excuse for Adult Scouts of America. Stosh

Parents who drive four hours to get the kids to camp may not be covered by BSA liability insurance and they might not have completed YPT. So there's a couple of issues right there that may in fact keep them from even coming into BSA camps. They haven't filled out a medical form and cleared any background checks. So they get free rein? A little Devil's Advocate here, but I think they are legitimate issues that go along with parents being able to hang around without proper vetting Stosh

Why are parents mentoring in the first place? Either they sign up, get training, or they drive cars. Untrained parents hanging around interfering in the program is wrong, especially those that were told they couldn't have their own patrol and couldn't stand in formation for the flag ceremonies. This isn't a slippery slope to adult led, it's the fast track. Stosh

Whenever one is conflicted between one's own welfare and the welfare of others, in today's culture, the individual wins out. Achievement vs. leadership,... well, one doesn't need followers when one gains self-attainment. "Is this just wrong?" Not when one bypasses the whole issue of honor. Sometimes one does what's right regardless of what one gains in the process. I kinda thought that with OA being an honor society, it might reflect that, but things change..... (Except the original description of certain scouts that dates back to day one, Parlor Scouts. Sorry, but they've always been there and tomorrow a whole new group will come forward to claim that title. Stosh

Calico, There was more "brotherhood" in what you were doing afterwards than any OA ceremony could have done... It's rather unfortunate that the ritual is still there, but the meaning is gone. Stosh

I guess OA has it's paper Brotherhood members too. That's really unfortunate. Stosh

In my troop, the PL is responsible for the members of his patrol. If there is a disciplinary problem, it starts with him. If he needs help he can always turn to the SPL which is normal for all issues he faces, not just disciplinary. If the SPL has a problem and needs help he turns to the SM which is normal for all issues he faces, not just disciplinary. Having the PLC deal with something other than interpatrol issues is none of their business. A scout being disciplined for some reason is not a troop issue and thus PLC doesn't need to be involved. PL, SPL if needed and SM if needed are all that is needed. The more people one gets involved in the problem, the bigger the mess and the more "opinions" are bantered around to confuse the issue. I can see it now. Little Johnny does something wrong at summer camp and 10 minutes after they get back, the boys in the troop and their parents, the troop committee, the SM and 6 ASM's the UC and COR are all standing on the front porch of Little Johnny's house ready set to solve the disciplinary problem of Little Johnny. Set up a card table and sell tickets, it sounds like a great fundraiser. Maybe a little show and sell for all the neighborhood gawkers that show up. I'm sure the media will want to cover any bad news that comes out of the BSA, one can expect them to show up. I would also suggest a police or two to cover crowd control. The highest ranking officer in my troop is the PL. If he can't handle the situation, he has help to consult. One of the reasons I have very few disciplinary problems in my troop is the PL handles most of them on his own. Occasionally the SPL gets called in. The situation has to be really bad for it to bounce to me to help deal with. I've never had to deal with a problem where a parent has had to be called to come pick up their son. The only time a parent has been involved was when the parent was also a troop Scouter and he happened to hear the scuttlebutt. I did have one incident in all the years of scouting that the troop was involved. The manager of the camp trading post told the camp director that a scout from troop #XX shoplifted something from the trading post. The camp director came to me and told me. I called the SPL to deal with it. He called all the PL's together, the were told to gather up their patrols and we all marched off to the trading post. SPL lined up the boys and asked the trading post manager to pick out the culprit. He couldn't, it wasn't any of our boys. He apologized to the troop. The SPL said the apology was accepted and told the PL's to take charge of their patrols, they were dismissed. As it turned out the culprit was an Eagle Scout from another troop. A month later that same SPL was sent an application for employment for next year's summer camp. Stosh

We're really informal in my troop. SM brings his own food. ASM brings her own food. They have a campsite. Patrols bring their own food and have their own campsites. No arrangements are made for anyone beyond that. The only cheating on that formula above is when me (SM) brings the Mrs. She has attended when asked by the boys and the activity is benefited by her presence. She's a forester by trade, naturalist by hobby, Master Gardener for plant identification, and expert kayaker. She has camped, hiked and kayaked the Alaskan wilderness far more than anyone in the area. Now if I can get her to sign up as ASM I'd be all set, but she's usually out kayaking/hiking/cross-country skiing when the boys plan their activities. They need to ask her directly to attend and present/assist a program. I would have no problem if a parent were to come along under similar circumstances. It's never a "fun" weekend for Scouters on my outings, it's a working weekend as defined by G2SS and to provide programming resources if asked. Stosh

300' between patrols and 30 miles between kids and their hovering parents. Unless one is registered and trained as an adult leader they have no business on the trip other than maybe providing a ride to and from the event. And if the event is 200 miles from home base, the adults get a hotel and or made the trip twice. But they don't stay anywhere near the boys. They are not registered and they are not trained to be there, neither are their spouses and their siblings ... or their pets, or their grandparents.... or their.... It's kinda like an opportunity for the boys to gain a sense of independence like Cambridgskip says. I thought that a character development/leadership program would have assumed that without having to have it spelled out like this. Stosh