Stosh

I have found that when I reply using a different font/color it doesn't always carry over to the post and I have to go back and redo the fonts/colors again.

I don't think it paradoxes at all. Adult association, i.e. hanging out with adults who are demonstrating by example, making up games among themselves showing how much fun the boys are missing out on is not paradoxical to Boy-led, patrol-method scouting at all. There's nothing in the rules that say the boys can't observe what the adults are doing when it comes to new opportunities. Nothing catches their attention like lighting the camp stove with flint and steel instead of a match. After all, that's how my stove at home works, except the spark is electrical rather than flint and steel. Doing something "different" is what excites the young boys' imagination better than anything else. The boys were doing foil dinners, one of my most favorite meals to toss in the garbage along with pop-tarts and hot dogs. I knew the boys had that on their menu, so I brought my own ingredients and when they were sitting around waiting for their dinners to burn in the fire, I made my hamburger-sauteed onion gravy over mashed potatoes and brown sugar glazed carrots out of my mess kit. The next time the patrol decided on foil dinner supper, half the boys had purchased mess kits and were asking for advice on how to make the gravy. Did I set up the menu? Did I ban foil dinners? Did I teach them anything? Did I make an opportunity for them to see the same thing in a different way? Okay, I did show them how to keep from getting lumpy gravy, but that was about it. They simply learned by watching my example and hanging/associating with me. What did they learn? 1) The mess kit can be used for cooking, 2) You don't have to eat burnt food. 3) food can actually be made to taste good of done right. 4) if we watch the adults that are hanging out with us, we could learn all sorts of neat tricks about camping and campfire cooking. I must warn you, however, never substitute French vanilla cappuccino from their normal hot chocolate. You'll end up with a bunch of boys acting like a new puppy that you just promised a ride in the car.

This is a classic example of how adult run troops operate the troop method. The new boys are basically ignored by placated by MB's which will do them no advancement good for at least 2-3 years into the program. They would be better off teaching advancement skills of Tenderfoot - First Class (T-FC). Where are the Instructors for the new boys? Playing basketball, Where is the Troop Guide for the new boys? Playing basketball. etc. Where's the Patrol Leader? Playing basketball. Need I go on? You have not yet found yourself a Boy Scout troop. You have found a YMCA program that has uniforms similar to the BSA. I would suggest you find yourself a real Boy Scout troop and leave this paper BS Troop before your son loses interest in real Scouting.

My boys always agree on one MB at summer camp they will do as a patrol. Generally it's something that is interesting to all. Working together also helps with keeping everyone in the game and reduces partials. Last year it was Wilderness Survival, this year it's Cooking.

Not interested in going. Rather do my own thing with the Mrs. Visiting national parks is kinda nice and a lot less hassle.

Our troop meetings (prior troop) One patrol now so it doesn't make sense at the present time for us. Patrols gather as prep for the flags. Fall in for flags. Once that is done, the patrols break off and have their own meeting. Generally it is recommended to have 30 min for a meeting and 30 min for a game. Fall back in for closing flags. Many times as we approach a significant event, summer camp, camoree, etc. the patrols generally focus on getting ready for that event, but otherwise do their own programming. Younger patrols generally work on advancement while the older patrols focus on more long range activities, hikes, bike hikes, treks, etc.

These kinds of activities and attitudes are what make excellent paper eagles.

According to some, my ideas aren't worth 2-cents to begin with, Every time I posted anything, I'd be losing money. No ROI on that process.

Okay, these expenses are for an ECOH from the OP's comment. Do you really think that once that ceremony is over with you're going to be getting much support if any from the scout or his family? As SM I've never been reimbursed for anything. When I drive the receipt gets lost, I'm going to drive anyway so it's my personal expense. If a couple of boys and their gear happen to be along, it's not going to increase my cost all that much. If it was important and I couldn't afford it. I would make sure the receipts were turned in. It's called taking responsibility for one's self. I expect it from myself, why not my boys, too? So what if the cost of the ECOH is less. The parents pocket the rest? Or what if it isn't enough, they come back to well and another check is cut? Better yet, just give a blank check to begin with. I see too much wiggle room for abuse. If the parents want something they talk it over with the PLC and the boys take care of everything including the receipts and turning them in.

Whew! I thought for a moment there I was going to have to pay for the privilege of being sarcastic instead of being able to give it away free like I always have done in the past.

I have found that the easiest and most credible process for handling money is to turn in receipts and get reimbursed. Records of money which belongs to the CO are fully documented, and if the family wants their money, they'll keep their receipts and turn them in. If that's too much of a hassle, they can simply toss the receipts and suck up the expense on their own. When I was treasurer of a group, I kept impeccable records and when they did a surprise audit, I could account for every penny. After a while they quit with the stupid audits until after I left. Of course when I left the records were complete and precise. That's the job, do it right and most importantly of all, CYA! It's a bit like YPT. Precise records protects the treasurer.

Just depends on what the people want that are following. If they want someone to stand firm, then compromise is off the table for that leader to be effective. If they want compromise, then it's a high priority. Compromise is not a feature of leadership. It may be a goal of a certain leader when those following want it to be.

If one does not think and believe the way I do, that must surely mean they are intolerant bigots, especially if their thoughts and beliefs are based in their religious traditions. - A Scout is Reverent. We're supposed to be tolerant of other people's religious beliefs and traditions. But now it's getting to the point where the political discussion as gone religious. When politics and religion combine, that's when things always seem to go haywire. At least that's been the pattern over the past 4,000 years.

That's the line I always use. How do you know the boys can't do that until you give them a chance to try. The only time I use ad hoc patrols is when I have only 1 boy going from a patrol. Then he just slips in with another patrol. Many times 2 boys is all that showed as a patrol. They couldn't compete but they could badger their buddies to show up next time. There's a lot of times the judges have let the two boys compete anyway because they were a patrol. It's not about winning, it's about being a patrol.

Sounds like you have a pretty good handle on what has to be done, but the traditional resistance seems quite strong but dissipating. I guess the only thing I would have done a bit differently was let the boys select 4 leaders to do the picking and have 6 boys in each patrol. Why, because it gives yet one more boy a chance to function in a leadership role and it give the patrols a chance to absorb the new guys when they come in. The oldest boys will "steal" from the next level down to replace their exiting boys and that will drop down the "seniority" scale until the NSP boys either form their own patrol or join up with a younger boy patrol. Also 4 patrols is about the time one needs to maybe introduce the PLC to the mix and this will give 4 boys and an SPL a chance to establish that part of the program. Well done

Same here.

In any case, our troop policy is: Church, family and school are higher priorities than Scouts. Learn to work around it. At our first summer camp since chartering this new unit, we had one boy that had 4-H and needed to be at the fair through the first weekend of going to summer camp. He would have missed the orientation sessions but could have made it the whole week. 4-H is not Church, family or school. We offered to pick him up Sunday evening and he could have spent the week at camp. Nope. This year the boys switched weeks so it wouldn't conflict at all with the fair, but he's still not going. Twice burned, they are planning on going back to the original week next summer. Another boy earned his black belt and advanced in Karate, The boys switched meeting nights from Mondays to Tuesdays to accommodate him and his new karate schedule. He's still active in the troop. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. The reason why this explanation is all over the place is because this is what the boys decided they wanted to do.

Never did. People, including leaders, do not not need to compromise anything. One of the choices in life is whether or not one compromises, One of the two options is no they don't have to.

We don't have individual scout accounts anymore than the youth ministry of our CO has individual accounts for their youth. It is not an acceptable practice in the opinion of everyone involved in our unit. It was unanimously adopted when we chartered. With that being said, we do have patrol funds that are controlled by the patrols and those funds are disbursed cooperatively with the patrol treasurer/scribe and the Committee treasurer. About half of the fundraising moneys go into the patrol fund relative to the amount of work the patrol members expend. Their monthly dues in total also go into their patrol fund. If a boy moves from one patrol to another the money does not transfer. It was raised as a patrol and it stays under that name regardless of the membership. With that being said, we are so new it will be a few years before we are faced with this situation. I have no idea what the Eagle candidates patrol will decide.

If I were to attend any event where my belief system is challenged, I have the right to leave. If I don't get my money back, no big deal, I took that chance when I paid. Is this the lesson our boys need to learn? It has nothing to do with bigotry or homophobia, it's simply being honest enough to be loyal to one's belief system, all dynamics the BSA promotes as honorable. If the emphasis for adults in the BSA program is lead by example, I guess the boys are going to have to make their choice. I'm thinking a lot of parents with Tiger Cub boys will make that choice for their children. I really don't need the extra hassle of explaining to my child why we're different. I live in a strong Amish area of the country and they do just fine with the lifestyle they have chosen. Are they homophobic or bigoted? Probably because none of their children are in the BSA. We all make choices in life as to what we want to be exposed to and what we want to avoid. ... and we all do it regardless of what other people's opinions may be.

@ ECOH's are always the financial responsibility of the families. If they don't wish to pay, they get a nice ECOH done by the boys just like any other COH. Maybe the boys suggest a pot luck appetizer thingy or some Sloppy Joes and chips. Nothing fancy, and nothing expensive. Costs of equipment, etc. is always researched by the boys and for the most part they seem to find the cheapest prices. They know if they don't shop wisely, they are going to just have to do that much more work at fundraisers. That in and of itself is quite a motivator towards THRIFTY.

I've always had the same philosophy. If you have a problem with me, let's take it out back. I'll join you after I've finished my coffee.... don't wait up.

Oh, by the way, if a patrol of "same" aged boys loses half it's membership over the years and the next patrol younger than them has the same problem and so they merge, to me they are still really a "same-aged" patrol. A year difference shouldn't make much difference in their interests. Like @@DuctTape mentions, 2-3 years out is beginning to stretch the point a bit.

Gee, boys could conceivably be 2 years apart and in the same grade of school. At least 1 year part is rather normal. If we get a group of Webelos cross-overs and a brand new non-Cub recruit that's a year or two older, in my mind they are pretty much all the same NSP "age". That boy might work better going immediately into the patrol of the boy that recruited him rather than an established Webelos group of boys that have been together for many years. He'd be odd-man out and his buddy would be in another patrol. Not a good fit at all. Basically what I am trying to avoid is the redundant orientation every year in all the patrols. Put the new guys together in a patrol of their own, Do the orientation, the advancement, the bonding going with the help of a good TG and knowledgeable Instructors who focus on just their needs and then if THEY wish, they can either elect a PL from the others in the troop, or develop one from inside the group. If they don't have strong bonds to each other, i.e. all recruited from multiple feeder packs, then I would just let them go up in the "draft" and if the other patrols want to take them on fine. If not, the TG, SPL, Instructors, etc. will need to nurse them along the first year until more boys come in the next year to fill their ranks. It's not a big deal, functionally operating Leadership Corp scouts should be able to handle that just fine. These boys will take on new members rather quickly, knowing the feeling of what it's like to be left out in the cold. Basically I want my new boys to get a good orientation, advancement training and leadership training ASAP. I don't want that to be left to chance as some sort of undesigned osmosis approach of "hanging around the older boys" and hopefully something happens curriculum. And I don't want my older boys held back by boys who don't age qualify for a more challenging adventure experience. The middle aged boys can do the heavy lifting of the "older boy" training associations because they need that for advancement anyway. At least this is the basic observations I have made over the years by leaving the boys alone to figure it out on their own which they do with remarkably little hassle. Right now with new boys and a new troop, the tried and true procedures I was used to are not there and so I have to sit back and trust my boys to figure it out on their own, which they are doing surprisingly well. Small, single patrol, one new Webelos cross-over, and he fits in really well in spite of his being behind in his advancement. I think summer camp will iron out any of the differences.

There's a wide difference between a mixed aged patrol where all of the boys ages range from 10 to 17. Then there are aged based patrols which can range from all the same age. It has been my experience that the boys, if left alone fall into some sort of clique type of somewhere in between those two extremes. 1) NSP (Elementary School aged boys) 2) Younger boys, Junior High/Middle School aged boys. 3) Older boys, High School aged Of course that can be broken down further to say younger high school and older high school. There's going to be attrition going on in all the patrols. Somewhere in the NSP/Younger boys ages there's are those that find scouting just isn't for them. The high school aged boys have trouble with sports and other activities competition. So, who do the upper high school aged boys want in their ranks to fill up their numbers, Yep, that's right, A sixth grader. Every high school junior wants to hang out with a sixth grader or two. Now if anyone doesn't see the sarcasm in that, they need to get a reality check on life. I'm sure they are going to look for a younger high school scouts and raid or merge with those patrols.. So lets assume that for the moment we have a patrol that consists of 2 - 6th graders, two 8th graders, 2 sophomores and 2 seniors. So you really think they are going to bond together as a patrol and hang out together? Even I'm not so stupid to think that. If on the off chance a group of boys were together as friends back in the Tiger Cub days and have come up together in the same dens each year. Now they get to boy scouts and whatever bonding they may have acquired along the way is gone because some adult in a scout troop says you have to make new friends with these kids from junior and senior high school. Then we can start a long thread about how difficult to retain our cross-over Webelos boys and lose them after just a couple of months. Now we come to some really fun activity, let's say canoeing. The patrol of older senior high scouts want to do one of the local white-water rivers, but 2/3rds of their patrol mates say no because they aren't experienced enough for such an adventure. So, then what's the alternative? A bunch of one's buddies that aren't scouts are heading out for a white-water canoe trip through the YMCA. What's it gonna be boys? Whatever the rest of the patrol is going to do, they're going to be short 1/3rd of their members, and they are going to be the older boys. This game is going to be played out over and over again during the time the boy is in such a troop. Gee, we're losing our Webelos cross-overs within their first year or two and the older boys get into sports and school activities, what's a person to do? Oh my! My older boys want to do white-water canoeing? They just go as a whole patrol. The NSP boys want to go on a hike and identify 10 plants and animals, no problem they just go, too. BSA spends a lot of time designing the Cub program to be age appropriate and Tigers are doing things that the Wolves are and the Bears are doing things the Webelos aren't, and that's over a 4-5 year time span. Well, Boy Scouts is 7 years and immediately after joining, those carefully designed dynamics are tossed out the window and we are expecting to have a mix of all ages. Peer groups are especially powerful during the junior and senior high school years. The age difference between a Tiger Cub and a second year Boy scout is the same as between a new scout and a scout in his last year as a Boy Scout. I find that boys may hang out with a younger or older scout that is within a year of their age, but really don't want a 4-7 year difference. Like I said, there's a good reason why if left alone, the boys will generally pick patrols that are age appropriately based. My retention of new scouts and older scouts remains quite high and when I do lose boys, it's because of other issues than I don't like the group of boys I'm hanging with. Like I said, when I left scouts, I left with the rest of my patrol, and we were aged-based, it was just that we as a group decided there were other things that were far more interesting than what we had.in our adult-led troop. There was no attrition in my patrol, it was a decision we all made together. Did we still camp and hang out together, yep. Had the troop been better run, we would never have left.