Stosh

We were in a heated "cabin" at the council camp this past weekend. Hosting Webelos II boys. It was -10o with wind chills dropping to -35o. One of my boys got a major lesson in frostbite after a half hour of sledding. He got his hand wet and then put his glove back on. Not smart. Very painful to treat, but no long-term damage. I've experienced camping in this kind of weather so I know the Webelos boys wouldn't do well. Wudda loved the teens and 20's of West Texas! No can do in Wisconsin, but this weekend it'll be in the 20's so we would have done a lot better. Downright balmy.

That raises an interesting question. It probably applies differently state-to-state. Back in the old days when I was working, my company had a no weapons policy for it's entire campus. It was later modified to inside buildings only because of "legal reasons". The only thing they could do to enforce inside the buildings was fire you. If a visitor entered armed, they would be asked to leave. They could do nothing more legally than escort them out. (Good luck with that. ) Regardless of whether one was on scout property or not, the best BSA could do in our state would be to simply pull the scouter's registration and filing a restraining order to keep them off BSA property in a legal sense. It's pretty difficult to actually put any teeth into gun restriction rules in a legal carry state. There are legal laws pertaining to carry laws and again I would think they would be state specific. It is illegal to carry on or within a certain distance of public school K-12 property. I own property within that range near a high school, so I can carry while on my own property in that case. But if one were holding scout activities at a school one would legally be unable to carry. One can carry on state college campuses, but not in buildings. There is legislature pending to change that at this moment. One can carry in local bars and restaurants were alcohol is served, but cannot consume while there. Surprisingly there is very little in my state the BSA can do other than pulling a scouter's registration if they break the weapons policy. In my state, the right to carry is actually quite legal. Anyone who is legal to own a gun can open carry it. Those who have had training and shown proficiency in weapons usage can conceal carry it.

I've been in the woods for 60+ years of my life. Seen plenty of bear, no wolves (their viciousness is over rated), no Boy Scout hating crazies, but I have been shot at a couple of times by stupid hunters and threatened a few times by armed trespassers and I do watch the news. Every passing day more and more Law Enforcement agencies, i.e. in Florida, Wisconsin, et al, are encouraging people to arm themselves. So now I do. Surprisingly, the ones I worry the least about are the bears and wolves (and I'm not even a DL).

First Class, First Year is the Eagle Mill motto. Like Eagle94-A1, my boys move at their own pace. 2 generations before me went to school from grades 1-8 1 generation before me went to school from grades 1-12 My generation was 1-12+ My kids K-12+ Now it's pre-preschool-MBA I never had any preschool or kindergarten and yet I have had more education than my children. Getting an education is up to the individual. If the boys want Philmont get FC. If they want their Eagle no problem. If they just want to have fun in scouting and don't want to go to Philmont, it really doesn't make any difference what rank they are. Remember, there are more PFC's in the army than generals and patrol officers than chiefs in the police department. I have a ton of respect for them all regardless of rank. Applies to scouting too.

From my reading of the question, I kinda thought he was posing a "what-if" question. If a scouter were to be able to have a weapon, what kind of weapon would apply in a scouting situation. I for one, under those circumstances, would shy away from a sawed-off shotgun under my jac-shirt as a bit dangerous to the situation of having a lot of collateral damage of young boys at the Pinewood Derby. Having a sidearm with me backpacking Yellowstone where weight is an issue, a heavy large-bore rifle might bring down a Grizzly, were as a lightweight .22 with LR hollow points might just get him more angry than one would want to try and deal with. Keep it in mind that a trained civilian in many states are allowed to conceal carry. In my state ANYONE, trained or not is allowed to open carry a weapon. In seven states one does not need training nor do they need a permit to conceal carry. In Texas, until recently one HAD to conceal carry, open carry wasn't allowed. So with that being said, I don't know the best recommendation would be for a blanket national statement on the issue other than go with whatever local option is prevalent in that particular location. BSA goes with local option on everything else, the question as to whether or not this applies here should be revisited in light of a changing society.

I tend to think that there is a large and growing segment of our society that has and is being conditioned to think nature is not a good thing. There are all the traditional boogie-man things like bears, snakes, and such, but now we can also add Lymes Disease, encephalitis, giardia, West Nile, hunta, stuff one can't see. If that doesn't scare the kajeebies out of ya, then there's the tornadoes, lightning, hurricanes, scorching heat, flash floods and frigid wind chills are ever popular, too. Oh, did I mention the hail storms with stones the size of softballs? Is it any wonder our society is paranoid of nature? After all even if the kids get in the car before it leaves the garage, they have that one last dash from the curb to the school door where any number of terrible things can happen to our dear defenseless children. Oh, the inhumanity!!!! Remember if mom or dad didn't work there's always homeschooling, that's becoming popular once more. And even then one must remember the horror stories their grandparents told them about when they rode in a car without seat-belts and car seats...and then there were the back roads rural hicks that actually rode in the back of the pickup! Can you even imagine that? Back in the day when one did venture out into the unprotected SPF-1000 to shield them from the deadly rays of the sun, actually road their bikes without helmets. We won't even go into those daredevils that rode no-handed. To these ancient fools, basketball was actually played outside in the driveway amidst all these horrendous dangers. Then there were the club houses built in trees with old crappy lumber that no one wanted. These were the idiots that ran and played on asphalt playgrounds. Is it any wonder we can't get the kids up from under the covers of their bed each morning and expect them to run the gauntlet of life with all that threatens out there! Sounds like child abuse to me! Call a lawyer now, before it's too late.

Ken, I don't think anyone is promoting breaking the rules. Bradne is LEO (, I thought the same thing!) and can "be prepared" by carrying under BSA G2SS. The issue is not whether we break the rules, but in light of today's world, we are only bringing up the possibility of trying to have them changed in an orderly manner to reflect the obligation to be prepared and be in a position to do our best to do our duty to God and Country and help other people at all times. I think in general with appropriate background checks, and legal permits and training, scouters should have the option to do what they think is best for their boys and on occasion carry if necessary. We aren't promoting the Wild West or anything of that nature, just being prepared for any and all possible emergencies.

It could be that the numbers are skewed by the fact that more people are moving to urban areas. The traditional agricultural social structure has pretty much collapsed and moved to an agricultural business structure. People tend to live more towards the suburban/bedroom community settings were land is at a premium. I grew up in a 6 bedroom house on a lot that took up 1/6th of a city block. Since then I have lived in one bedroom apartments, houses of all sizes and shapes, in small towns, big cities, urban and suburban areas. I raised 3 kids in those settings. Now that I'm retired, I have a very small 3 bedroom house, of which only one bedroom is big enough to really be a bedroom, on 9 acres of land. Kids are all grown, but I want my grandchildren to know what country living and woods are all about. I have put in walking trails and fire pit in the woods. I am an extreme exception to the modern rule of thumb on home buying today. I have one daughter who used to live in Chicago and now has moved back to small city and wants to be "close to downtown" and another daughter that wants to homestead a farm. I'm thinking the "close to downtown" daughter is more indicative of today's home buyers. Both daughters have a small child each. My rural-minded daughter is more child oriented to home buying than my urban-minded daughter. Most young people in the housing market are not rural-minded, suburban/bedroom community, maybe, but not rural.

It depends on where the outing is. If one is at Philmont the options are limited. In 2000 when I was there, we were required to have tents because of the bear problem, 4 boys (none of mine thankfully) ended up in the hospital because of bear attacks. Bear traps were up all over the place as were fake tent sites with traps, but no pepper spray was issued and no guns allowed. If one is in a national forest in southern Arizona, one might want both pepper spray and a sidearm. If one is in a national park it is recommended one carry spray and sidearm is optional. If one has the boys over to the house for pizza, a sidearm and gun over the mantle is sufficient. Plan the scout outings appropriate to today's world where situational awareness is important. Avoid high crime areas like schools and movie theaters and other criminal safe zones that are marked "No weapons allowed".

@@bradne Thank you, well said. As a prepared Scout, I know first aid and hope to god I never have to use it. I buy car insurance and hope to god I never have to use it. I pay taxes for police protection and hope to god I never have to use it. I pay taxes for fire protection.... I buy health insurance... I conceal carry...

@@qwazse I think you are close on this issue. Perhaps the multiple references among the various dictionaries on the Internet aren't quite precise as need be, but the relationship dynamic I was trying to get across was the difference between: 1) Mentor dynamic which is connected with words like advisor, guide, guru, consultant, trainer, tutor, coach, etc. It is most often used in the context of a older superior to a younger subordinate, but could be used in a teacher/learner or master/apprentice where age might not be a factor. But you are correct on the hierarchy emphasis where the relationship is never equal. 2) Associate on the other hand has the dynamic which is connected with words like partner, colleague, coworker, workmate, comrade, ally, affiliate, confederate, etc. a more equal partner relationship dynamic. I suppose my BSA heresy is based on the fact that BSA uses the word adult association when describing the method by which the relationship between SM and Scout is more an equal peer than a higher/lower mentor/mentee type of relationship which seems to be the prevailing trend in current BSA literature. Maybe the dynamic changed but the historical wording didn't. My point being, in my heresy, I have found I get a lot more mileage out of my boys when I associate with them rather than mentor them. Yes, on occasion a coworker might seek out another coworker for counsel or advice, but the basic relationship is one of equality because tomorrow, the advice seeking might in fact be reversed. This happens all the time in my troops. If my role is defined as mentor, guide, etc. I might find getting advice on something a bit more more contrived when seeking it from a mentee. This is where the "What do you want to do for an activity this next month?" and the traditional answer from the less experienced, mentee is an emphatic, "I dunno!" Sure, I get that from some of the younger boys, but my older boys tend to be more relaxed, more confident and cowork "with" me rather than "for" me. Viewing scouts in a peer relationship is not an easy task. It requires a lot of trust and it is often hard for adults to do that with those they determine are just "children". I just work really hard at not seeing them as children and instead place an expectation on them as well as myself to treat/view them as adults, the thing they want most during these adolescent years. Not only do they appreciate it, they tend to be more cooperative and responsive to each other and myself if they see the relationship as "everyone is equal and in the same boat." One can meet the boys at this level without becoming immature and being "one of them", but draw out the developing adult in them and acknowledge their stepping up to the adult level. To me this is how the Adult Association Method works for me. And for those who think I'm preaching BSA heresy and my own brand of scouting, I'm presenting the disclaimer: "YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY" because not everyone can wrap their mind around the dynamic differences here and there are a lot of scouters out there that really don't trust their boys. After all it's very difficult to do. Train 'em, trust 'em, let them lead. I didn't make that up on my own.

What happened in Eagle94-A1's troop is indicative of what happened in my previous troop as well.

@@walk in the woods This concept has popped up over the years on the forum, but these kind of references are interesting. Here's one for you to ponder, the book is really good. http://richardlouv.com/

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=can%27t+see+the+forest+for+the+trees

Everyone needs to be sheltered from all the dangers the world has to offer. We are a society of paranoids locked in because we locked everything out.

All politics is 99% about the agenda and 1% about the people. That 1% might be a bit generous.

Be prepared to do my duty to God and Country and help other people at all times. That just might entail more than first aid after the fact.

I don't see the relationship between SM and scout a master/apprentice one. The goals I teach on leadership have never been part of a PHD or trade school curriculum. If I am to help a scout into the world of adulthood, he has to experience it, not just be taught it. He sees how I operate as an adult and all of a sudden he realizes that I am treating him as a peer it catches his attention and he reacts to me differently than he does other adults who are treating him as a child, student, apprentice, or any thing other than a peer. When I say peer, that does not mean I go down to his level, but instead draw him up to the adult level. There are a number of little things I do to reinforce this, too numerous to mention in a post. When all is said and done the end result tends to be the same. My one Eagle who called me by my first name when I came into the troop was rather arrogant and self-centered. After 4 years of working with him, he was always referred by me as Mr. Scout and eventually he started calling me Mr. Stosh I never told him he had to, he just made the switch. When he aged out, I started calling him by his first name. He continued with the Mr. Stosh. I told him we were now peers and we can call each other by our first names. He smiled at me and said, We're not peers, we're friends and you will be Mr. Stosh until the day I die." I was introduced to his new bride when he got married last summer as "This is my special friend, Mr. Stosh. He helped make me who I am today." One of my Webelos boys told me on the day of his Eagle COH that other than his dad, no other adult male spent more time helping him grow up than me and then thanked me. How does one teach those dynamics to youth? Adult association pure and simple. If one doesn't understand that, they probably never will because they are instilled through association, not instruction.

I'm a firm believer in first impressions. With that belief comes the task on my part to impart all the training necessary for a smooth running program. It also helps when one realizes that a 6th grader is still in his educational absorption mode and will take things to heart. Once they get 7th-8th grade they seem to lose their brains somewhere and when they get to high school they find their brain...with an attitude. So with that being said, I have multiple short phrases that are easy for the boys to take hold of. Be safe, Look at like a scout, have fun, take care of your boys, You will be treated like an adult until you prove differently, etc. From that point on, the boundaries have been set, expectations spelled out, and it's now time for the boy to put it all together for himself. I give them the respect of space and they appreciate it. I don't hover over them, I don't keep an eye on them, I don't keep the training going, I just sit back and let the other boys have an opportunity to lead. I trust my boys and expect them to take to heart what I've taught them. Surprisingly they do. Do I have disciple problems? Sure, on occasion. Worst one was when the older boys called up a parent on Sunday morning and had her take the boys in his patrol home. That left the younger boys to clean up camp and they did not tell me what they were up to, nor did they tell the driver what they had done. Needless to say, no one was hurt, didn't appear to be an act a scout would do, and not everyone had fun. But they thought it really funny until the PL came to me asking for a recommendation for Eagle from the SM that was required by Council. I just smiled nicely and went and got a cup of coffee. He was 16 years old, there was no danger of him aging out. I had signed off on everything How would I deal with a co-worker adult who pulled a stunt like this? Give him a recommendation for a promotion? Nope. Not in the cards. The boys get treated like adults. The boy stewed about it for a few weeks, went back to the council to let them know I wouldn't give the recommendation. He had to explain to them why. Committee chair told me later it wasn't a pretty sight. They told him to figure it out. It started with an apology from him, then an apology from each of the patrol members, an apology from the parent driver, and another 6 months from him and his patrol to prove that he deserved that Eagle. The whole time I never said one word to the boy about the incident. No punishment, no consequences, nothing. After 6 months of exemplary scouting, I went down to the scout office and turned in a recommendation. The committee must have told him they got it, because I never did. His dad was an Eagle with 2 palms, but at his Eagle Court of Honor he invited me up to present me with his only mentor pin. He teared up, hugged me, shook my hand and thanked me. After he got his Eagle at 16 1/2, he stayed on and continued his exemplary scouting career. He was trained, I trusted him, and eventually he did lead. Couldn't ask for anything more even if he fell flat on his face, it wasn't' the end of the world. There was no SM yelling at him re-telling him what the boundaries are, no convening of committee to consider suspension, no parent sitting in on their activities to make sure they behave. In the long run I think the boy beat on himself a lot more than I ever could. He squared himself up and that's all that I could expect. He grew up.

My "older scout" patrol was basically my Leadership Corps. They tended to be a bit more flexible with their schedules because of sports and other activities, but they tended to watch out for one another. If the QM missed a month or two because of some school activity, the others made sure his work was covered. We did the patrol separation thing at campouts and I noticed on multiple occasions when a PL came over to the Leadership Corps area looking for the SPL or ASPL for some help and they weren't around, one of the others in that group would make sure the PL got his help. Yeah, it wasn't his "job" but he did take seriously the leadership training of "Take care of your boys." It was kinda nice, because EVERYONE in that Leadership Corps had to not be in their site before a PL came to the SM for help. That did happen, but very, very rarely. It was as if the boys knew that if they needed help the LC was the first place to go first. So what's the role of the SM? How do I know how this works? Well, as SM I floated around the various campfires of the patrols and if something wasn't right, they would try and work things out. But even with me sitting there at the fire, if there was a gear problem, obviously the QM knew more about it than the SM. GrubMaster doesn't have a skillet? Well, does the QM have one or the SM? They figured it out very quickly. I have found over the years that if one were to teach leadership skills well enough to begin with instead of focusing on management skills, they get better results in the long run. Once a boy figures out how to take care of his boys and then works on his problem-solving skills, he can take on management tasks with little or no training. Yes, this process can be a problem for the NSP, but if left alone even they can figure it out. Usually within a month, two at the most, the NSP has figured out that many of the "better" scouts got picked up by the older patrols, or at least got an opportunity to. That left them to rely on their own merits. They did have their TG to rely on, but as part of taking care of his boys, the TG did suggest opportunities for the newbies. Don't have a good candidate for PL? What makes you think the pool to pick from is just your patrol. If the older boys can invite away NSP members, the NSP boys can invite away a boy needing POR to be their PL as well. Some TG's function temporarily as PL until the boys figure out a solution to their problem. Other TG's do some behind the scene recruiting looking for candidates to suggest, and some TG's work with the boys to get one of them up and running as PL. I have seen all these scenarios work, some better than others but they all work. With the Take care of your boys, leadership style of the troop. I did see the Leadership Corps take a particular interest in the NSP for the first couple of months with the QM getting them up to speed on gear and equipment, Scribe on advancement issues, etc. On the first camporee after crossover, the LC did camp close to the NSP because they knew there would be a fair share of interaction between the two and the older boys were too lazy to pick a spot that would be too far away. Yes, there was a fair amount of mixed patrol dynamics, but the integrity of the LC and the NSP were maintained separately with no impact on the other patrols other than what those patrols wanted to have as far as new members of their choice. I did notice that the older boys tended to NOT want new boys and preferred to merge older boy patrols when their numbers needed bolstering. The merged patrol flag was usually offered to the NSP or it was retired. I saw a bit if hierarchy pecking order going on in the troop, but it was least prevalent between the LC and NSP because of having to work together in the beginning. The LC scouts were the first to really get to know the NSP scouts. When the LC scouts returned to their patrols, they often mitigated those patrol members with the new boys in the troop. I never really saw a whole lot more than standard group dynamics for the most part otherwise. Over time the NSP just slipped into the troop's routine and the LC went back to business as usual until the next crop of newbies showed up. A good TG worked himself out of a job as soon as he could.

I don't even have a come-back for this sort of thing. Stosh is speechless.

I one read somewhere that a pet peeve was something you don't like about yourself that annoys you when others do it. @@blw2 maybe you're right on the micromanaging thing. Maybe that's why our pet peeve is helicopter parents. "Associations With Adults—Boys learn a great deal by watching how adults conduct themselves. Scout leaders can be positive role models for the members of the troop. In many cases, a Scoutmaster, a merit badge counselor, or one of the troop parents who is willing to listen to boys, encourage them, and take a sincere interest in them can make a profound difference in their lives. Adult association is also part of what we call a youth-led troop. Adults understand that their role is to create a safe place where boys can learn and grow and explore and play and take on responsibilities—and fail, and get up and try again. If you were involved with Cub Scouting, this is a very different role that can take some time getting used to." TAHAWK's training curriculum quote. From my understanding of this quote there is no place for perpetual coaching, mentoring, or guiding. Just listening, encouraging, taking an interest and creating a safe place for the boys to develop their leadership. Perpetual coaching, mentoring and guiding just might be this micromanaging you are talking about blw2..... Something to think on anyway. I wonder if there is such a thing as a helicopter SM. Naw that could never happen.

Our council camp has a brand new dining hall, refurbished old dining hall, new training center, newer pool, climbing tower, new archery/rifle/shotgun ranges and they are having trouble filling 3 weeks of campers. Good staff and program is better than nice facilities.

I would seriously like to know the number of deaths and injuries on scout property due to animal attacks that could have been prevented had a weapon been available. I was witness to a situation at Philmont where a large group of boys were forced off the Tooth of Time in the middle of the night by a bear that wouldn't leave the campsite. I thought that section of trail was a bit dicey in the daytime, these boys had to do it in the dark with flashlights. Fortunately they were all safe, but they were also not prepared for such a situation even that close to base camp in a well traveled area of Philmont.

I remember once a boss saying to me an unequivocal NO. It cost the company $10,000 and that was back in the 1970's. He was fired the next day. PS: I'm sure it was one of the valuable life lessons he learned, too.