Stosh

I am registered with a unit as SM, I am registered with the council as a UC and I am registered with the council as a MBC. I wear three different hats in scouting and I wear them at different times, never together. All three roles are independent from each other and stand by themselves.

That's what I did, made sense to me.

Some interesting points to consider and I'll pass it by my pet project I offer my Eagle candidates..... For 20 years now I have been researching the lives of Veterans buried in our county. It started out as a personal project for myself, developed into a project for the Archives of the local Library and is coordinated now with the Federal Veterans' Administration. It kinda took on a life of it's own. I now have 2,200+ pages of research complied and was working on it last, yesterday.... I don't see the sub-projects my boys do any different than a sub-project done for the DNR, NPS, or such or any other on-going project within the scope of a greater project. Right now the Veterans' Administration relies on the volunteers that place flags on military graves to notify them when the stones are broken, damaged, worn, lichen covered to the point where they are no longer readable. Generally this is not done. It is far easier to just stick a new flag in by the stone and forget about it. What I suggest is a candidate takes a cemetery, takes the list of military veterans buried there and organizes a project around having teams of 2 boys go to each of the stones, photograph them for the Find a Grave project, collect up any information at the site for genealogical data, evaluate the presence of a military marker, and if that marker is readable, in good repair and is clean and record that information for the VA. The Veterans' Administration is the beneficiary of the project officially, but Find a Grave research, my research (genealogical) and VA all receive valuable information from the project. With the help of the troop WebMaster, the photos and information are entered into Find a Grave internet project, records are turned over to me for my research, and the VA applications (with photoes of damaged/illegible stones for verification) for new stones are filed and replaced by the VA as needed. The last Eagle that did this project involved over 20 boys, and had 19 military stones replaced with new ones. He received recognition from the American Legion, the County Historical Society, and an article in the local and state newspapers. By the way, the first time this project was submitted to the Council Committee it was deemed not worthy of an Eagle project. That situation has long been cleared up and subsequent projects at other cemeteries have been well received by a lot more than BSA and the beneficiary VA..... So, @@fred johnson it could be that this type of project may not meet some standardized rules imposed by some council committee, but each case must be looked at as meeting the Eagle rank requirement, not some arbitrary subjective rules of a committee somewhere.

@@Krampus I wouldn't worry about a lawsuit or Federal prison. The scope of this situation would move it quickly into the arena of an "international incident".

My boys start out right from the git-go on such things. They start out with organizing a small service project even while they are still Tenderfoot. They learn with each opportunity all the rules and regs as they get more and more complicated projects along the way. By the time they reach their Eagle project they know as much (if not more) as any other BSA leader. One of my boys did a park clean up project. Items provided: Hand tools, gloves, hearing protection, eye protection, hard hats, chainsaws for the adults, with additional leather protection and hard-toed boots, etc. etc. etc. The areas where trees were to be brought down were all marked off with yellow caution tape before the chainsaws were started. Plants of concern, nettles, poison ivy, etc. were all marked by a qualified person (forester/master gardener) before the boys were allowed to cut. Everyone in the brush cutting areas wore blaze orange so that everyone knew where everyone else was at all times. The pond that needed to be cleaned out was done by scouts in canoes with PFD's, gloves and brand new winch equipment. Of course the water buffaloes were located at the food tent staffed by adults so there was no hydration problems. A first aid station was manned by an off duty EMT. All of this was done without an ASM Eagle advisor, or SM involved. By the time this boy got to his Eagle Project, he knew everything there was to know. It really wasn't any stretch for him at all. Basically my Eagle candidates see the Eagle rank no different than Star and Life except they have to document one of their service projects and fill out a workbook. They tend to pick ones that will be a bit more meaningful and challenging than organizing a ditch cleanup.

Many moons ago, I was involved in foreign exchange programs and the organization coordinating the exchange is responsible for making sure the parent/child contact is maintained. If one is having a permission slip signed, it has to be signed by the PARENT, not the Exchange Host. 40 years ago, that was a hassle. Maybe with the speed of communication that process can be expedited. In any case I would have the PARENTS fully involved, knowledgeable and approving of such activity. Remember the health policy of the foreign country may not be kosher in the states. The Exchange Program may be the ones holding the medical insurance for the exchange students, etc. A lot of unknowns out there that would need to be exposed, explained and approved before moving on it. These Exchange people have been involved in this process for many years. We have not. Now's the time to start asking a ton of questions! I would focus those questions to the Exchange people, not us here on the forum. By the way, if the person is a Scout in his home country, BSA/WOSM might be able to facilitate some of this as well.

What make one think it's my way only? I stated what I do, everyone else is entitled to do it any way they wish. Units are like snowflakes, everyone has it's own unique personality. I have the way I do it and others have their ways of doing things. If what they're doing works, then they don't even need to read my posts. But if others are struggling and are looking for alternatives to try, they can read my posts and see if there is anything in them that they might want to try to see if it works for them. If not, move on and don't lose any sleep over it. There are hundreds of ways to skin a cat, one might have to try 80 or 90 different ways before they find the one that works best for them. The ways I use seem to produce the least amount of hassle for me and my people, your mileage may vary, buyer beware, etc. etc. Just get off the "Stosh's-way-is-the-only-way kick", it's getting old... just about as tiresome as hearing all the whining about it, too. So let's make it official: Stosh is happy with what works for him. He's also happy with what works for you. The two don't have to be the same thing, they only need to make people happy. If things aren't working out for you, try some of the other options out there on the forum. Stosh's option is but one of many. Try them all and see what works for you and your situation.

* When I signed my registration application to be a SM, I agreed to all of this. How many times do I need to sign before the Council believes it? There also comes a time when the boys know the policies and procedures of the BSA and don't need to be babysat. If they aren't to that point yet, maybe they aren't ready to do an Eagle Leadership Project. These boys have participated in a few service projects, eagle projects, etc. along the way that by the time they get to their eagle project, they pretty much know what they're doing and I trust them to do it correctly as part of their project. No one has come anywhere near disappointing me after all these years. The closest I ever came to being a Gate Keeper was with one Eagle candidate ask me for a recommendation for his Eagle. I said I couldn't do that in light of his record in scouting. He came back a few weeks later and said the committee wouldn't do a EBOR without my recommendation. I suggested to him two options he might want to consider. Appealing the Council's requirement which was NOT part of the National policy to National or get his act together in the troop. The boy did get his act together turned out to be a pretty good Scout and instead of a recommendation from me, I went in and straightened the SE out on the process the Eagle Board was not following properly. He got his Eagle without my written recommendation nor signature on their recommendation form. All I got out of the whole fiasco was the boy's mentor pin and a hug of thanks for being his SM.

My boys are all taught that from day one when they join. My pet peeve is having my time wasted. Because of that focus they quickly learn that wasting their own time isn't a good policy either.

I personally have been working on a historical project for the past 20 years with the archives of the local library. I have had boys take on pieces of the project as their eagle projects. There have been questions raised as to whether or not the boy's project is worthwhile or able to provide leadership opportunity because it is under another project being done. So far, the projects seem to make the local newspapers, get other community organizations involved with follow-up, and although questioned by the council have never been rejected. The third time around the committee questioned it, the boy provided the news articles showing the PR garnered on two previous Eagle projects, and it was then approved. The problem lies not in the consistency of the projects, but the consistency of the committees.... That's just one of those adult interference dynamics that goes along with the Eagle Project process.

The adults owe it to the youth to trust them with fulfilling their responsibility. If the boy needs help and support, I'm there for them, I'm not there hovering over their shoulder providing them with constant feedback. I'm not one for being a helicopter SM. I would think it would be extremely difficult for the scout to show any sort of leadership if the adults are in there guiding, mentoring, directing, providing feedback, and basically making sure the boy can't make a mistake. My Eagles do not put out a press release with their picture showing their uniform and Eagle certificate. Instead, my boys have the newspaper reporters show up at the project and take pictures and do their own reporting of what the boy is doing. Big difference. My "signature" on any of this process means absolutely nothing other than a courtesy contact for the paperwork to be turned in. I have seen SM's, ASM's, and CC's totally re-write Eagle projects for the boys so that they will sail smoothly through the red-tape. What they sign is what THEY have written about the project. In that case they should sign their work. I only sign because the red tape would be an obstacle to the boy's opportunity if I didn't. Just because I rubber stamp my signature on these things doesn't mean I'm not involved in the process. I've been known to take a shovel or two in my hands over the years. And most importantly of all, my boys know they can come to me for help anytime 24/7 and they don't need my signature to do so.

The part that was missed is the rubber stamp signature. It only acknowledges I am aware of the situation, it does not require any authorization on my part, such as I authorize this scout to turn in his eagle rank workbook, or I have to authorize a scout taking a MB or authorize whether or not he's eligible for OA elections. If the adults are part of the program that is the Gate Keepers of opportunity for boys, they can't do an Eagle Project, take a MB or run for OA, then I think the signature requirement is not in keeping with the boy led program and falls more in the adult controlled program. I "rubber stamp" my signatures on these processes to let everyone know I am aware of what's going on, that's all that is necessary. The opportunity is for the scout to take and doesn't need my approval.

So then what is the purpose of your signature?

Then the approval committee will catch it and send it back to the boy to re-work. It's the boy's responsibility to make sure it is done correctly, not mine. I'm thinking the workbook explains it very clearly and the boy should be able to read or he's got more problems than getting his project approved.

And why would he be putting his name in for balloting and why would anyone vote for him? Sometimes one has to trust the boys to do the right thing. I kinda do it all the time.

That's why OA Election eligibility is rubber stamped with a signature, why MB's are rubber stamped with a signature and Eagle project proposals are rubber stamped with a signature. All required. Why pretend there's this big adult approval process inherent in the process. The only way one would NOT sign or approve would be to act as the Keeper of the Gate and strip the opportunity from the boy for whatever reason du jour is floating around.

I have never been a fan of wasted time, especially when it's been my time. I'd call it a day and notify the OA honor society scout that said, "not my chapter, so not my problem." and let him know that the call out for his district IS his problem now and he can stop by and pick up the drum any time it's convenient to you.

I have found that being an scout of eagle rank does not necessarily make a good adult leader. They have just as much, if not more trouble transitioning than say a parent of a Cub Scout. Cub Scout leaders have to be told, the boys are running the program in a boy-led unit. On the other hand, eagle ranked scouts have to be told, the boys are running the program in a boy-led unit.... I really don't see much difference. A brand new parent coming into the program has to be taught the set-up of a Boy Scout program. A Cub Scout leader and former Boy Scout has to be UNTAUGHT old habits then taught the set-up of a Boy Scout program.

I've been known to color outside the lines, too.

Whereas there are other organizations out there that have an Eagle Award that are not BSA, using Honorary Eagle Award designation might offend non-scouts who have earned their Eagles. But alas, looks like one is a bit of a johnny-come-lately.... http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/03/30/bald-eagle-scout/ http://oquirrhhillsmiddle.org/community-involvement-the-honorary-eagle-award/ http://www.friar.com/blog/glenn-yeakel-honored-boy-scouts-america/ https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10152900715045555.1073741850.114122970554&type=1 http://www.thealmanac.net/article/20140723/NEWS/140729994 Google is an interesting phenomenon....

So under what conditions would an adult NOT approve if the scout is eligible? Being eligible is being eligible. Looks pretty much like a rubber stamp operation from where I sit. To deny a scout would in fact be a denial based on some subjective judgment implemented by the adult.

Hmmm. lots of heretics out there I guess.....

Welcome to the forum, Too bad the rest of us don't have events like this, there's no standards out there to operate from.

Yep, since the Southern States lost their states rights, ALL the states lost them as well. Instead of a collection of individual states with a limited federal government, the Civil War was the second American Revolution where we now have exponentially increasing bureaucratic bloated central government with continually degraded states' rights. What the Founding Fathers designed is not anything like what we have today. Lincoln was right, the baby went out with the bathwater. Lincoln did not save the union, he created a new one.

I have seen "beads" of various bling material being worn by NYLT graduates. NYLT is rapidly becoming the WB for kids. Next thing you know, the Lions will be wearing WB knock-off beads......