Stosh

BSA indicates three types of patrols. They seem to fall into those categories naturally. Obviously the new guys coming in are the Tenderfoot/greenhorns that need a bit of help getting their feet on the ground. So they are identified as a patrol of new scouts. But after a while, it's only natural to identify them as more regular patrol. Then again, after a few years, those boys have kinda been there, done that and the conversation starts focusing on a more experienced challenging kind of venture patrol. So then, when there is a push for what some called mixed patrols, how can that be the natural progression of things without some sort of outside intervention? I don't see youth intervention any different than adult intervention. Something has to be done different than naturally letting things take their course. In a larger troop, this might have to be necessary, but then are larger troops necessary? There's always a flip side to every coin. With BSA promoting boy led, patrol method using New, Regular and Venture patrols, what's wrong with simply going with the program as prescribed. I get a ton of push back for trying to stay the course here. Why is that?

This whole issue is centered on the individual and there is no set rule that can fit all situations. I have seen burned out SM's that hang in there way too long. I've seen some of the good ones depart when their boys age out. The sad part of the whole thing is it's not up to you or I to make those determinations, it's up to the individuals him/herself. For myself, I don't see myself getting out of the "youth" business anytime soon. It's not like I am doing only the SM thing where routine and repetition might get a foothold in the processes. As I mentioned in another post, when I get all frustrated with BSA rules and regulations and it wears on me, I just go with the church youth group and it balances itself out. I have a Boy Scout summer camp week coming up that should be fun and a church mission activity another week this summer. That of course doesn't get in the way with the Mrs. and I heading out for a 50 miler kayak float down the river somewhere. I think I would have burned out a long time ago if all I had was family, work and Scouts. Obviously, scouts would have taken the brunt of the frustration. I will have to eventually have to step down due to age and health. Mentally and emotionally I'm still having way too much fun. Heck, if guys can identify themselves as gals and use their restroom, I surely can identify myself as a 16 year old kid and get in there and have adventures. The only "problem" I seen on the horizon with this is that I am far more active than the scouts. They want to do stagnant camping, they don't want to do the hiking, biking kinds of things. I seem to be leaving them more and more behind so I can get yet another adventure in before I get too old.

The point I was trying to make is: with all the fun the kids had, and as safe as they all were, why is BSA so overly cautious when they are teaching safety and then don't rely on it. They have to regulate safety until they reach the point that the boys have to visit the park in a 12 passenger van and not get out to see anything because someone might get hurt. I have to admit the majority of the kids were high school aged, and those that weren't were watched over by the older kids very well....without being told..... and without having a patch on their shirt..... just because they cared about everyone else. The activity was organized by an Eagle scout who was a parent of one of the kids in the group. He has only one child and SHE didn't quality for any of the scouting programs, so he and his wife took it upon themselves to fill in the blanks. It was interesting the differences and the similarities we observed. The Eagle got his training through BSA and I got my training through being a Emergency Rescue Technician. I don't know what they were teaching in the high school, but everything the youth were doing did make sense.

Nope. It broke so many BSA rules it was unbelievable. As adults we focused solely on safety, worked with the kids. minimal planning and it was like back when I was a kid doing stuff like this. Had a nice day with the church youth group. If anyone suggests I turn this group into a Venturing Crew I'd be the first to say no. Everything was covered, everything was safe, the kids had a great time. The surprising thing about it was the number of kids who had taken rock climbing in school. They knew the ropes, the techniques, the knots, the equipment, the climb. Afterwards they knew how to wind the ropes and secure the equipment. Had a nice hike after the climb. The rocks and trails are highly rated and we beat the summer crowd. We did swim at a park beach but we had to post our own lifeguards. While we didn't get into politics, another adult and I along with three of the boys got into a pretty in-depth discussion on religion before getting back to the church. Got in my Servant Leadership lesson too. That lead to why the youth can't vote in the congregation, hold office, etc. I come from different synod than these kids and I kinda stoked the fire a bit. We did touch on PCism from a religious perspective, too...(over pizza).

There were no certified climbing instructors, no one had to pass a swim test, everyone paid their own way at the time of the event, all chipped in for gas. We used a 15 passenger van....Everyone had a good time. Everyone was safe, no one got hurt. The kids learned about poison ivy because that was in the area where we were climbing, and they found out about a bunch of other plants on the way to the climbing rock wall. If my scouts ever want to go and so something fun like this I can suggest it to them as something that was really fun.

It's always a surprise to the adults to find out that THEIR ideas of what the boys want and what the boys REALLY want are often times miles apart. WHAT?!!? No program? No schedule? No structure? No S.T.E.M.? No competitions? No bling awards? No learning? You had Climb on Safety, right? Everyone had passed the swim test, right? You had your ASM's there with clipboards and pens in case someone did a requirement, right? MB counselors, duly registered to cover the fishing, swimming and climbing? Did they have trailers and gas stoves back in 1910? All that and the boys still had a blast? Really? I find that hard to believe! Well done, @@BadenP, congrats to your adults, and welcome to the fun side of scouting.

It was totally run by an Eagle scout........

Just got back from a great day of rock climbing, hiking, swimming and pizza.......

I wonder how long Scouting would last if the AOL in Cubbing was as relationally difficult as Eagle for Scouts?? I'm thinking the ranks of Scouting would thin out to nothing if only 3-4% of the boys got AOL.

Age has nothing to do with the quality of an Eagle.

Welcome to the forum.

Competition with sports and other programs, One boy went 4-H. Wasn't really the outdoors type, but he tried. He didn't go to summer camp and that's always a bad sign. Another boy had a falling out with his patrol members and was replaced from the PL position in the patrol. He then went to a different troop. The other boy chose the sports route. The other two boys are doing just fine and with the influx of the new boys, we'll survive.

I wish I had had the opportunity to have all 34 boys, but half ended up getting their AOL from their pack and traditionally went with their feeder troop, the other half kinda split and some decided to go with the second troop. Of the 9 of 15 remaining boys who started with me all but one should be finishing up their AOL. If this batch of boys want to do the 50-miler this summer, I'm all for it. I will be doing it a couple of times with or without the scouts. The Mrs. and I are also on the docket for doing 100 miles of the North Country Trail in honor of the NPS Centennial this year. Of course any boys are welcomed to come along on that too. I make opportunities, it's up to them whether or not they take advantage of them. No skin off my nose, they're the ones running the show.

Yeah, I'd kinda stay away from smart-alecky remarks when it comes to one's religion.

When my 2nd troop was making annual calendar plans as 4 patrols, the "PLC" meeting consisted of the PL's getting together and letting the other three patrols know what they were planning. If Patrol A was going canoeing in June and hiking in July, maybe Patrol B had it just the opposite. It was up to them to decide whether to join up and do them together. If they didn't want to do that, they didn't have to. Maybe the NSP's canoe trip was a nice paddle down a leisurely flowing river with some sandbar camping along the way and the the Venture patrol wanted whitewater canoeing. Merging the activity into one would not be a viable option. They also decided what summer camp they wanted to go to and whether or not they both wanted the same week. Older boy sports conflicts might dictate one week over another whereas the NSP's baseball might dictate a different week at the same camp. It's up to them to work it out and then publish the calendar for the adults so they can start planning on what it's going to take to make it work for the boys. It all worked out fine in the end and everyone got pretty much what they wanted. Maybe in a smaller troop this is more easily done than in a large troop like @@Krampus Whatever he has going is working for him. Mine was working just fine for the boys as well. Now with only one patrol, a lot of the headache is gone and my job is much easier. That's why it was a good opportunity to get the Venturing Crew going at this time so by the time both grow, we will have sufficient youth leadership on board to run things on their own.

The "letter" they requested was more of a fill in the blank check the box of either I recommend the boy or I don't. They weren't going to budge on it and I told the boy that and recommended if he didn't want to correct his mistake, show some leadership and earn a recommendation from me he could go the appeals process which I showed him how to do. He chose to correct his mistake show his leadership and earn the recommendation. I wasn't going to do ANYTHING with the council on this issue. They sent me a form, I threw it away, I knew it was not a required form for the application or the EBOR process. It was just their wild hair issue. The problem was between the council and the scout and everything to resolve the council created roadblock was within his realm to deal with and he did. Gotta remember, I don't do anything a scout should be doing. Solving his problems was not in my ballpark to resolve. The infraction was serious but it ended up with a good lesson for the boy and everything turned out okay. I think the boy's choice to resolve the problem with the troop was a better choice on his part rather than taking on the Council with an appeals process.

This was the quandary I was in with one of my eagle candidates. He covered his bases and that was about it, then he made a majorly poor decision and I felt it best not to make a recommendation which would have been the kinder option. The council however mandated he get a glowing recommendation from the SM. Now what does one do?

@@Krampus I have my UC hat on when I asked these questions because I'm comfortable with what I have as SM, but as UC, I see a lot of troops that don't seem to be comfortable, do a lot of mix and match when it comes to patrols, have retention problems, etc. and need to know what I can offer the UC corps to help the units out there that are struggling. With that number of boys I totally understand the amount of organizational structure needed to make it work and to work towards a troop wide consensus. But nibbling around the corners, what happens to the patrol that wishes the kind of autonomy of the old patrol method where they would go off and do patrol specific activities on their own? It sounds like "everyone's in the game" all the time in the structure you have described. Maybe that's what's necessary in your case, but how much "wiggle room" is allowed the PL and his patrol to decide that they are going to go to Activity X as a group, but it wasn't part of the overall troop calendar? How much are the patrols in your troop "mixed"? How much does your larger troop adhere to the BSA's model of New, Regular and Venture patrol concepts? If push came to shove would the boys say their loyalty is more towards the patrol or the troop? @@blw2 mentioned that his troop oriented situation's patrol method was more reflective of sub-group break outs than actual independently operational patrols? Are boys ever "limited" in their opportunities by such things as calendar, PLC votes, mixed ages within a patrol? I'm sure over time there have been some work arounds on these issues and boys having to settle for certain limitations, but how do the boys ever make their concerns known or is the troop big enough that they have to simply accept it as a way of life? Lots of questions, I know, but our UC corps is in the process of redefining itself and is on a search on how to be more useful to the units with ideas that actually work.

My wife is a knitter and quilter..... she doesn't dare say anything about my camp gear. She's the real outdoorsperson anyway, her tent is a lot newer and nicer than the one I've had for 20 years.

@@blw2 So how does one get the BSA patrol method across to units that either have never used it or have adults that refuse to implement it? As a UC, I see what you have described in a lot of units out there that vehemently believe they have a patrol method troop. They will never change with that mind-set. What should UC's be doing about this and should it be a big part of the JTE program or some other expectation more clearly outlined by National?

The boys in my units really don't do much with the SPL/PLC concept and generally just go with a consensus of PL's on inter-patrol or shared activities. We got up to 4 patrols once and the boys experimented with an SPL for a while and it was viewed as okay, but nothing to write home about. It is my opinion they didn't get excited about it because of their emphasis on the patrol method and the independence of the patrols as they saw how this method played itself out. It has always been "okay" if all the patrols didn't do things together. I have had some patrols go one way on a weekend and other patrols do something else or at the convenience of their members pick a different weekend to do their activity. It's bit difficult, but not impossible for the adults to come up with 2-deep, but it always worked out. So, I'm kinda curious. With troops using the SPL/PLC model, does the vote on all activities have to be unanimous or are some patrols voted down and are required to go with the troop on the activities? I ran into this when the interests of the older patrols didn't jive with the experience levels of the younger boys. They stuck with their patrols and didn't do the ad hoc, temporary contingency, thingy for high adventure, they simply went and did it as a patrol. Everything they did was as a patrol. The younger boys like the council camp for summer camp, but the older boys are burned out on it and want to look at other camps in the area. If that be the case what does the SPL/PLC determine for the troop and if everything boils down to a troop decision, what kind of long term impact does that make on the patrol method. My former troop that was definitely a troop-method troop, right down to a centralized cooking station attached to the troop trailer, did have as many as 6 patrols, but none of them had any autonomy or authority to do anything other than what the adults proposed and PLC agreed on. It was never my feeling that this was how the patrol method was supposed to look. This was most obvious when we went to a new summer camp half way across the country and upon arriving found that the high adventure program still had a ton of openings. ALL the older boys, the PL's the honor patrol officers, the troop officers, anyone with FC and above could opt out of the planned events and go with the High Adventure option. Which they did and it left about half the boys in camp. None of which were FC. No leadership, no program, no patrols, and 2 ASM's to babysit them for the week. The consensus of the boys left behind was that the trip was a total waste of time and money. Of course all the older boys thought it was fantastic. So what about this tension between the patrol vs. troop dynamics of structure and authority dynamics?

You "took care of your boys" that's what leadership is all about. The boys aren't stupid, they'll figure it out over time and the pats will be more obvious.

"It is up to the council’s designated representatives to collect the responses. If after a reasonably diligent effort no response can be obtained from any references, the board of review must go on without them. It must not be postponed or denied for this reason, and the Scout shall not be asked to submit additional references or to provide replacements." This is the section that my Council ignored and insisted I, as SM, provide a extremely positive reference for the boy. I couldn't do that so I did not submit a recommendation letter and the boy's application was postponed for 6 months until I submitted the recommendation.