Stosh

I have been in 3 troops all with watercraft emphasis. I have seen hundreds of boys pin-ball their way down whitewater rapids only to spill and come up laughing. Very few of these hundreds of boys ever take the canoeing MB unless they are required to do so for certain treks, i.e. BWCA requires FC rank and FA, Swimming and Canoeing MB's. After almost 30 years, no boy has ever so much as been a danger to himself or to others. Yes they learn to canoe from scout leaders who give as much instruction as they can, but don't require the MB route. Yes, we have had boys with very few paddling hours do whitewater canoeing.

If one were to do a comparison of the Arrow of Light requirements and the Scout/Tenderfoot requirements the bulk of them are identical. Scout and Tenderfoot should be a walk through for boys that actually earned their Arrow of Light. If they didn't really earn their AOL, then it will be a major retest for them.

Seriously? Helping a bird in distress? Kudos to the twins, shame on the camp. There is nothing wrong with what the kids did. The camp showed extreme un-scoutlike behavior in addressing the issue and was more worried about their own butts than in doing what is right. Getting fired from that camp is a gold star on their resumes in my book!

Why doesn't the BSA have their own WFA training that speaks directly to the needs of the program rather than some expensive "off the shelf" programs that may or may not take into consideration the needs of taking boys into the woods. Other than basic First Class First Aid, a little more on transporting victims over long distances, and specialty issues like snake bites, and maybe a bit on rescue procedures, what more is there that is necessary to know. I would think that someone on a trek would know where the cell phone coverage starts and stops so one doesn't need to know where the nearest civilization is, but where the closest coverage is, kind of thing would save a lot of rescue time. Breathing and bleeding are the two important issues, the rest are either beyond the capability of being helpful (CPR, EPI, Snake bite, head trauma) or fairly non-life threatening, sprains, lacerations, broken bones, etc. They do it for swim safety, boating safety, climbing safety, weather safety, why not WFA safety? That would be a great annually required on-line training that I would do just to keep up-to-date, with the latest advancements on the subject.

....and so we punish the boy because the parent is a jerk? So, how does that fit in with, "...help other people at all times" ?

No, the waiting room of the ER. But seriously, safety is the #1 priority. When it comes to Wilderness First Aid vs. a thorough understanding of First Class First Aid I don't think a major course of unusable information should be mandatory.

Alas, @@MrBob, you might be right. I guess I wouldn't mind making two trips, but the boys in the second shift would be showing up at camp a day late and leaving a day early. One does what they have to considering the cards that were dealt.

That's why I left the 5% that find it necessary to do "their own thing." BSA has a minimal screening process for its volunteers and thus always leaves the door open for such antics.

I'm thinking a single dose lasts 5-20 minute, I know it isn't very long and everyone reacts differently to a measured dose. A mildly allergic person reacts differently than a severely allergic person. Out in the backwoods, like CPR, it's a Hail Mary effort at best.

"Yeh can "pass" da BSA Canoe MB requirements and still be a danger to yourself and others on the water. Seen it lots of times :p" Then there's something seriously wrong in your neighborhood, but I seriously doubt that this is the norm around the country. A boy who has passed his swimmer's test, is wearing a life jacket and knows nothing about canoeing can be in a canoe and is in no danger to himself other others. Such comments just aren't true, even if doctored up cutsy-like. Of course if one needs to exaggerate one can put them in a white-water river situation, but then even an experienced canoeist could be in danger.

Prayers of peace to everyone. Cancer is such a cruel disease.

There has to be a standard. Advocating a free-for-all basis isn't of any real value to a national/international program for youth. We have enough yahoo's out there doing their own thing making life miserable for some dedicated hardworking scouts. And who are these "most of our adults newer to Scouting haven't learned...."? I'm not running into any of them and most would indicate the majority of them. What I do find is a lot of dedicated new leaders out there doing their best USING THE ADVANCEMENT as a guide to provide the best skill development for the boys possible. Maybe in your neck of the woods that isn't so, but I'm seeing 95% of the adults out there doing well with the program in my neighborhood. And no, I do not think that following the policy of "no adding/subtracting" from the requirements makes them lame. It makes them honest.

If an unstoppable force meets an imoveable object....? if a tree falls in the woods, does it make any sound? If a texting driver runs over a Pokemon Go player, does anyone notice? Inquiring minds want to know..... maybe.

And looking both ways before crossing the street.... What a mugging experience feels like.... What happens when one misses a curfew.....

A scout is trustworthy.

Seriously? It might get a few off the sofa, but the rest of us who don't spend that much time in the house, it's kind of a waste of time. I had a deer pop up in my yard yesterday while I was mowing. Does that count? Neighbor had black bear and cub pop up in his yard a few weeks past. That's gotta count for something, too.

Is it even possible to teach the canoeing MB without actually getting in a canoe and going out on the rivers and lakes? Yes, I have seen and taught boys how to paddle a canoe while they sat on a table and paddled into the air. I could see exactly what they were doing and how well they were doing it. Of course this was in Januar/February and the rivers were iced over so we couldn't get the paddles anywhere near the water anyway. But come March and April the boys did have a head start on what was going to be happening when the canoes got wet.

You are correct, I have yet to be involved with an Eagle project that involved fundraising as part of it's efforts. Either the materials were provided up front or they were not needed. 3 of my top Eagle projects were 1) cleaning up and doing landscaping after a church built on a new addtion, 2) Surveying multiple cemeteries for adequate markings for veterans' graves, and 3) cleaning up a neglected city/county veterans' park. None of them involved any construction, all of them had lasting value to the area.

Chicken or the egg. Sending a bunch of boys out in canoes without any training will someday produce results based on trial and error. Why have instruction if they are going to have to figure it out on their own only to have it checked off after they have stumbled on the solution. I have been on enough rivers in my lifetime to realize that pin-ball paddling of the newbies is a remarkably stupid endeavor. It's frustrating for the novice and on a narrow river is discourteous to others out there trying to enjoy the experience. It's truly remarkable how much tension and frustration dissipates when knowledgeable and even boring instructors are on-site to offer up proper technique and helpful guidance in the process of learning.

I have often wondered whether this is a project to show leadership or a legacy monument project. Sometimes It's difficult to tell.

Just keep telling yourself it's all for the boys. Eventually someday you may even come to believe it.

What other than breaks, burns, bites, sprains, and cuts are we talking about here? These are just basic first aid issues. Oh, it's out in the woods as compared to at the local state park? The more National over thinks this stuff the less likely the boys are going to go into the woods. Breaks - splint and transport, unless compound fracture or femur break, bleeding shoudln't be an issue. If one can't stop the bleeding being 5 miles into the woods or 50 miles into the woods doesn't make one bit of difference. Burns - unless it's a massive burn, not much can be done in the wilderness other than treat and transport. Life threatening depends on amount of burns, not length of transport. Bites - Epi pens? Other than that not much can be done. Snake? The snake determines the success rate, not the medical personnel. Sprains - not many people die of sprains, but they do need transport. Cuts - severity dictates the necessity for treatment and/or transportation. Heart attack? - Nobody's going to do CPR for an hour or two while waiting for EMS to arrive. Cannot transport and do CPR at the same time. As an experienced EMT-A I don't know what some WFA certification is going to accomplish other than in a court of law. It has no real value in the medical field.

Maybe the reason BSA doesn't allow any retesting at the BOR is because 95% of the boys wouldn't make it through. Once and done is the norm here, people!

And you didn't notice the pretty girl in a tank top and shorts? It's gotta be a BIG rock!

Can I get my piece of double chocolate mint fudge pie served up by a pretty lady in a tank top and shorts?