Horizon

OGE - since I posted my version of the tenting rule, I felt I should respond: Nope - tent assignments are completely up the boys in my Troop. I never get involved beyond providing advice to the PL (preferably via the SPL). Advice is usually along the lines of "if an odd number of boys is camping, don't have the kid on his first campout sleep alone." So perhaps my proposed "rule" about tenting is not even needed. I was trying to think of any official changes that might be needed if we ever took the next step in integration.

Two rules for activities: 1) No canoodling during Scouting activities (I assume there is an equivalent one for co-ed Venturing groups already?) 2) Any given youth has the right to decline a tentmate assignment. They do this with the knowledge that they might sleep alone instead, and might have more gear to carry if backpacking. Organization: Any Troop / Crew / Pack has the right to determine its membership standards based on the input of its Charter Org. A simple expansion of existing rights regarding membership that already exist (the LDS only Troops, Catholic only Troops, Muslim only Troops, etc.) Facilities: Showers are already going private at most camps I have been to recently. I can see stalls being installed at the last few places with group shower facilities still standing. Events: I can see some units demanding to know who else is coming during a particular week. Then again, having had my unit lose our pre-paid reservation because the LDS units wanted to have a 100% LDS camp at Summer Camp - I have already been on the out in the past, and can handle being on the out in the future.

There is the old joke - Friends help you move, REAL Friends help you move bodies... Then there was the stuff they taught in Junior High - Friends vs. Buddies. For me, a true friend is both someone that I can talk to openly and count on. They are also someone that I will help, no questions asked (that bodies thing again). If I can count on them, and they can count on me - they are a friend. There are plenty of people that I am friendLY with, but I do not consider them to truly be a friend.

When I was a Scout, my Troop was Chartered through a Lutheran church. We had 1 Scout out of 100 as a member. As a Scouter, my Troop is Chartered again through a Lutheran church. We have zero Scouts in the Church, but we do have one family in the Troop that are members. The boys have all Eagled and hit 18+. The father has stayed on as our COR and we have a great relationship. We come to the church clean-up day. We provide lunch for their annual family picnic. If I can get my Venture Crew really going, I hope to have the older kids from the church youth group involved in some high adventure.

Today's Los Angeles Times has a opinion piece from an Eagle (1971 vintage): http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-fleming30-2009dec30,0,4659963.story "Scouting lost me too. I don't find being gay inconsistent with being morally straight. But I find discrimination inconsistent with Scouting's principles of kindness and tolerance. They are values I learned around the Boy Scout campfire and taught my children when I became a father." skeptic: I think that you would be wrong on your assumption about the behaviors of those who find anti-gay policies to be discriminatory. I am a Scoutmaster who wants local control by the Charter Org on defining Morally Straight in regards to homosexuality. I openly meet with gays and lesbians. Two were at my home for Thanksgiving. I was honored to be with another two when their adopted son was baptized. My son is going skiing with a group of youth, and one of the adult leaders on the trip is a gay male. My greatest concern? My son hot dogging on the slopes and getting hurt.

What would HAVE to change if we decided to respect the religious beliefs of all faiths and allow CO's to determine if being gay is withing the CO's definition of Morally Straight? 1) Local control. That is your only hope of keeping the more conservative elements around. You will still have issues at camporee and summer camp, however. Certain Troops will become known as open, others as closed. Much as my Troop seems to get all of the autistic kids, other Troops never seem to have room for them during recruitment. There will be straight only troops and mixed troops. I expect the mixed troops to be much smaller, and to slowly attract a lot more gay leaders. I have seen this in churches, where one church opens up to everyone, so those excluded from other congregations start to, well, congregate. 2) Venture style camping requirements where if you have a gay leader, a straight leader has to be in attendance as well. As for tracking how this (and going coed) might hit the numbers - make sure that you normalize your data for eligible youth. There are different numbers of kids being born each year, so that should have in impact on your total numbers.

Merit Badge Counselors can choose to use some of the skills portion of the Troop meeting time to meet with Scouts at my Troop. We open that up to them 1-2 times per month. I have a Troop of 50+ boys, and many very skilled and educated parents. When the physician offers to teach First Aid, with two nurses as assistants, I welcome him. He takes on 5-10 boys and instead of dropping off his son, he sticks around and teaches. That works for me, is adult association, and the boys learn First Aid. I do not have MBCs at every meeting, but I think that allowing counselors to have some time at meetings is just fine. We have the Council MBC trainer come to the Troop 1-2 times per year and they train our parents who are willing to fill out the application and provide services.

I don't get this question that often, since I address it upfront. It is possible to EARN the Eagle before high school, if the Scout wants to. They will need to be very active (have you signed up for summer camp yet?). They should not miss a campout. They should not miss a meeting. We have the Council list of MBCs available at every Troop meeting. We hold Scoutmaster Conferences within 1 week of request. We hold BORs typically within 2 weeks of request. The Troop does NOTHING to stand in the way of Advancement, making it 100% in the Scouts control to determine how fast they advance. I was a 13 year old Eagle (a few weeks shy of my 14th birthday). I stayed active. I have a 14 year old Eagle in my Troop who is now 16. He has stayed active. I have a boy who just earned his Eagle with two weeks to spare. He was active. I have another boy who just earned his Eagle with 2 days to spare. He hit Life in Junior High, and then got busy with other activities - coming back to finish. EVERY one of those Scouts is an Eagle, and nobody cares about age anymore. If you have a Den that is advancement focused, then you can teach them about Scouting. If you are stating that you won't support a boy on a fast track - then YOU are the one not following the system. I would apologize for this statement, except that the apology is owed to me. I tire of reading on this forum that all of the young Eagle must not deserve it, or didn't really earn it, or must have dropped out after getting their Eagle. Each time one of you posts that - you are insulting me, and the young Eagles that I have know through my decades of Scouting.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004598.html 1990 2,043,705 1991 1,985,555 1992 1,807,177 1993 1,705,103 1994 1,610,490 1995 1,518,224 1996 1,471,722 1997 1,438,562 1998 1,406,830 1999 1,385,703 2000 1,384,338 2001 1,385,116 2002 1,413,577 2003 1,423,348 2004 1,411,287 2005 1,378,014 2006 (June) 1,381,401 2007 (August) 1,380,082 Now, I don't know if this counts activated Reservists and Guard members. We certainly have cut the size of the military, while still expecting to be able to manage two occupations. However, I wonder about the actual numbers sometimes. We still have random placements around the world: http://siadapp.dmdc.osd.mil/personnel/MILITARY/history/hst0906.pdf Total - Europe 79,830 Total - East Asia and Pacific 45,009 (does not list Korea though) Our two wars: Operation Iraqi Freedon (OIF) (Active Component portion of strength included in above) Total (in around Iraq as of June 30, 2009) - Includes deployed Reserve/National Guard 171,500 Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF) (Active Component portion of strength included in above) Total (in/around Afghanistan as of June 30, 2009) - 59,000 We have more men in Germany than in Afghanistan.

They will probably launch it at Jamboree, and everyone can get a day 1 cancellation from the special Jamboree post office...

Kahuna: What I was interested in seeing was examples of the Scouts being ahead of the game. I am a graduate of Stanford University, where women were admitted from day 1 - long before other schools chose to go coed. I can hold that up as an example of my alma mater taking an early step towards equality, different from the actions of other universities. The BSAs official openness to all religions is a great example of how Scouting was at least officially open. My assumption is that a review of the past would show that the majority of BSA units reflected their communities in regards to integration. However, it would be great to find some stories of those units who first chose to break the color barrier (who is that Jackie Robinsonesque Eagle Scout from a white troop in other words). I was watching a history of the evolvement of the black gangs of Los Angeles recently. An interviewee was discussing being in Scouting (reciting the Oath and Law on camera). He then described his Troop asking for a ride on the Goodyear Blimp. When they arrived, they were not allowed to take their ride, while white scouts were. He talked about limited options for camping, and other ways that they were set aside. He then sequed into how his Patrol evolved into a gang instead, looking for something to do. It was a tough story to listen to, realizing that the story could have gone the other way if that group of Scouts had been welcomed and embraced instead of made "separate but equal." Now, this story is from one man, and is colored by time - but I am sure that it is not the only story out there. I would like to find the stories on the other side. When a white Scout stood by a black one. When a Scoutmaster said that Scouting was for all boys. When a camp welcomed Troops of all colors. That would be an inspirational Scoutmaster's minute, challenging the boys to not simply follow the societal movement and instead do what is right. I am sure that there are stories like that out there, but I have not heard them.

Rather than looking for the history showing that the Scouts were a mirror of their times, I would be interested in any stories of Troops that broke the barrier in advance of the general public. Wouldn't it be great to instead be able to talk about Troops that integrated early?

Beavah: Good point. Here is my level of trust in their ability. As Scoutmaster, I eat with the Patrols (they actually fight over who gets to invite me). That said, while one plans the menu, the Patrol DOES still have input. I have heard Patrol Leaders say (learned from Cooking MB), "Dude, we have to have more than just meat and bread or I can't sign off on the menu." My favorite emergency was the realization that a new Scout was a vegetarian and the Patrol Grubmaster had not purchased any veggie based protein. A quick stop at the store before the campout was required. Baden Powell had 11 year olds running messages on the battlefield. I will say again, they are more capable than we give them credit for.

One way you don't have the problem of 8 6th grade boys is that you don't do a New Scout Patrol. We don't do that in our Troop, so across the 6 Patrols each one gets 3-4 new Scouts every year at most, and they tend to trickle in from February to May. First campout - every new scout helps cooking a meal (or, in the really sharp patrols, all 4). The older Scouts in the Patrol teach the younger Scouts the Patrol favorites (cobblers, carne asada, breakfast burritos, chili). Tenderfoot cooking assistance is finished. Second Campout, each of the new Scouts takes on one meal for the weekend (3 meals on Saturday, one on Sunday). 2nd Class single meal is covered. Third, Fourth, Fifth and Sixth campout - each of the new Scouts should be ready to be grubmaster and lead chef for the weekend. Scouts who missed the second campout are the assistant as well. First Class is demonstrated. Half a year, and you have had more than enough time for a boy to learn and demonstrate the cooking requirements. Now, this assumes everyone makes it to everything, and that the older Scouts do a sufficient job of mentoring. This is where having a mixed age patrol helps a lot, and having patrol specialities helps with patrol pride (the afore-mentioned chili for one of my patrols, carne asada for another, and grilled tri-tip for a third). Once they do that, we like to toss Cooking MB at them as an option to really sharpen their skills. We also keep the Iron Chef battles going on a lot (the winner gets their dishes done by the Scoutmaster). We make a big deal out of food, so the boys want to learn and demonstrate.

One addendum: The biggest hurdle we have is the cooking fire. Here in Southern California, campfires are not allowed during much of the year, and not at all at a lot of the campsites. We have to consciously choose sites to provide the opportunity for a boy to learn to make and use a cooking fire. With that, we still have to bring firewood, as the collection of fuel from the forest is not typically allowed.

I posted this in the other thread. We don't have a FCFY "plan" or curriculum, but we do accomplish it for those Scouts who choose to make Scouting a priority. A Game with a Purpose (as I am regularly reminded here). The PLC and Troop Leadership of our Troop puts all of the opportunities out there for an involved Scout to easily learn and demonstrate the skills necessary to earn First Class in the First Year. During the first meeting the Scout attends, his Patrol Leader usually gets him to do his initial physical fitness test. We have two nurses and one physician who regularly counsel First Aid Merit Badge, plus we have an adult who teaches CPR courses. First Aid MB is always available, and a few times a year the boys show up to the Troop meeting to find a group of people in need of "aid." They go from station to station demonstrating that they know how to deal with each person's issues and symptoms. We have regular iron chef competitions on campouts, and Patrol Leaders check their members books before every campout to make sure that their Scouts have the opportunity to serve as Grubmaster and Chef. We have a 5 mile hike on almost every campout, and the SPL keeps copies of topo maps with him for the map and compass portion. We have two Eagles that will set up a full compass course at the drop of a hat. Poles and ropes are standard equipment for our car camping runs, so that camp gadgets can be built. One of my Scouts is running a Swim Day for members of his Patrol to finish the swimming portions of the Trail to First Class. ALL of this combines into multiple opportunities for Scouts to learn and later demonstrate that they have mastered the skills necessary to earn the rank of First Class. With the buy in of the PLC, and the provision of opportunities, Scouts can earn their way if they so choose. The last step is during my SMCs. At each rank, I talk to the Scout about what is now expected of him as he earns the next rank. Any Scout who is First Class is expected to know what to do - and is treated that way. Young boys are capable of much more than we give them credit.

A Game with a Purpose (as I am regularly reminded here). The PLC and Troop Leadership of our Troop puts all of the opportunities out there for an involved Scout to easily learn and demonstrate the skills necessary to earn First Class in the First Year. During the first meeting the Scout attends, his Patrol Leader usually gets him to do his initial physical fitness test. We have two nurses and one physician who regularly counsel First Aid Merit Badge, plus we have an adult who teaches CPR courses. First Aid MB is always available, and a few times a year the boys show up to the Troop meeting to find a group of people in need of "aid." They go from station to station demonstrating that they know how to deal with each person's issues and symptoms. We have regular iron chef competitions on campouts, and Patrol Leaders check their members books before every campout to make sure that their Scouts have the opportunity to serve as Grubmaster and Chef. We have a 5 mile hike on almost every campout, and the SPL keeps copies of topo maps with him for the map and compass portion. We have two Eagles that will set up a full compass course at the drop of a hat. Poles and ropes are standard equipment for our car camping runs, so that camp gadgets can be built. One of my Scouts is running a Swim Day for members of his Patrol to finish the swimming portions of the Trail to First Class. ALL of this combines into multiple opportunities for Scouts to learn and later demonstrate that they have mastered the skills necessary to earn the rank of First Class. With the buy in of the PLC, and the provision of opportunities, Scouts can earn their way if they so choose. The last step is during my SMCs. At each rank, I talk to the Scout about what is now expected of him as he earns the next rank. Any Scout who is First Class is expected to know what to do - and is treated that way. Young boys are capable of much more than we give them credit.

I watched an interview with the Monty Python crew, and The Life of Brian came up. John Cleese was adamant that they did not commit blasphemy, but instead were only guilty of heresy.

Interesting question whether or not the town hall meeting should be considered the public square, and therefore open to all comments and participants. Bush used to limit attendees at his meetings, and the Left protested - so it is only appropriate that the Right should protest if a member of the Left does the same. Perhaps Mr. Frank would have been better to answer, "That question deserves no response. Next person please." The intent would be the same, the answer perhaps more palatable. I personally have no respect for people who claim "Nazi" every time something is not going their way. Interesting side note that Mr. Frank only voted "present" for the censure of Mr. Wilson, and commented that it was all a waste of time. As for the Health Care issue - I agree that the President has done a poor job of communicating on this issue. The problem being that this issue is simply too complicated to easily communicate in sound bites, bumper stickers and 30 second TV advertisements.

The First Amendment does NOT give you the right to a platform. I am under zero obligation to provide you with a printing press, a computer with internet access, or a microphone at a meeting that I have called. There is also a difference between heat "Mr. Congressman, how are you going to pay for this given that we are already running a massive deficit, massive debt, and can not even run Medicaid or Medicare well?" and idiocy "The President is a Nazi!" The first is a tough debate, the second deserves nothing but contempt. A Town Hall is held to engage in discussion with rational human beings. I have no problem drawing a line that puts someone who thinks that Obama and Nazis are remotely related on the other side of that line. She is welcome to wave her sign and flag in the public square, but in the meeting the big kids are talking.

You don't get to shout fire in a crowded theater. You don't get to use racial epithets in my Troop. You don't get to scream nazi at a townhall. Your rights end where others begin. Disrupting a meeting is not practicing the First Amendment. I have no obligation to give equal time to the Klan, and Barney Frank is welcome to tell a person at a meeting that he has called an idiot, and point her towards the door. Given how she was acting, I have no issue with it.

I would not call a Scout an idiot, no. But I would toss him out of the meeting for acting in a similar fashion. Barney Frank had no obligation to treat that woman as anything other than a lunatic. Perhaps his language was questionable, but she deserved to be thrown out of the meeting. I have ZERO tolerance for people who wave the Nazi flag like she did. They need to be told to shut up and leave the room until they can act properly.

Barney Franks response is light years from the disgusting nature of the protester he was mocking. To equate his statements with that of the women is disingenuous at the least. If one of my Scouts started screaming Nazi at a meeting, it would be signs up, and the Scout would be removed from the meeting. We would hold an SMC at the earliest point. If he insisted that (to keep the analogy going) our local DE was a Nazi / Fascist / Communist / Socialist - I would ask him to explain to me his understanding of the term Nazi / Fascist / Communist / Socialist. If I found out he is just an idiot who is disrupting Troop meetings with his idiocy, he would no longer be welcome in my Troop. I disagree with Barney Frank on many of his policy stances. However, I have no problem with how he treated this idiot. We should NOT give legitimacy to certain groups on the fringe. They do NOT deserve our respect, as they have not earned it. They exist only to destroy, never to build. I have no issue with protest, but the Godwinization of political discourse should not be tolerated.

This is great - we can have a cage-match brawl of the "Thou Shalt Not Add to the Requirements" crew vs. the "Thou Shalt Not Deviate from the Advancement Guide #24601 (J Valjon, author) crew. [starts looking for a recipe for popcorn in a Dutch Oven] Here is the problem with being too much of a gatekeeper - the Scoutmasters who disagree with the ability under the official system for a Scout to earn Eagle by age 13. We have some of that cohort represented on this forum. A Scoutmaster COULD, by using his Gatekeeper role, prevent a Scout from following the official BSA program to earn Eagle in the minimum amount of time by simply refusing to sing a blue card until the Scout is "ready." Now, I personally counsel Scouts to take certain merit badges before others. IMHO Personal Fitness is better after the onset of puberty, for example. However, if a Scout is determined to earn the badge, I will sign the card and recommend a Counselor who best fits that Scout's personality.

I am SMC and MBC. I teach Personal Management, Cooking, and some other badges as requested. When my son wants to earn a badge, he take it with me and other Scouts, but I always have another adult leader check his work to ensure that there is not an appearance of favoritism. ASMs do my son's SMCs, not me. I DO sign off on his bluecards to take a badge - so his bluecards are full of my signatures I admit. I will sign as Unit Leader for his ESLP - but we will add signature lines for others as well. In regards to MBCs - my Troop is fortunate to have highly skilled and educated counselors for most badges "within the family." My Scouts have also gone to other troops for some badges, or when one of our MBC's was not available.