gwd-scouter

Guys decided to go with two patrols after all. The third patrol leader didn't show up for the hike a couple of Saturdays ago nor the meeting the Monday after when the permanent patrols were formed. Works out well since this fellow let everyone know last Monday that he wasn't coming on this weekend's annual planning campout either because he's on the soccer team and has games on Saturdays.

So, now we have the Eagle patrol and the Desert Fox patrol. The Awesomeness Patrol is made up of our SPL, ASPL, JASM and Quartermaster. Those are the only Troop level PORs we have right now. Each patrol has a PL, APL, and patrol quartermaster.

Last Monday was fantastic. Patrols planned their menus for this weekend's campout. Patrol leaders collected money from their guys. SPL checked over the menus. After closing, the patrol leaders then met briefly with me, along with their grubmaster for the weekend, so we could sort out the money - they took out the money they needed for the food and turned in the rest to me to pay the campsite fee.

I popped in the room where the awesomeness patrol was finalizing plans for the weekend. They let me know that the two patrols will be camped as far apart from each other as possible, the adults are to camp on the other group site (we've reserved two) and the awesomeness patrol will be in between. I asked a few questions, but it became very clear that they didn't need me (or want me) in there when my son (the SPL) said, "we've got this Mom."

By misquoting people and passing the misquote along we further the incivility. President Carter did not say the majority and he didn't even say the majority of the the people protesting. He said the "overwhelming portion of the intensely demonstrated animosity."

It will surely be pointed out that I'm wrong, but I interpret that to mean that portion of the demonstrators that seem to be just opposing Obama, not any specific policy - those folks with the witch doctor signs, Obama as a Nazi, and such. In other words, the "intensely demonstrated animosity" not the protesters as a whole. The screamers and the outrageous folks get the air time, but I've watch many of the town halls aired on C-SPAN. and while many of the people displayed anger, many more were quite reasonable and respectful - those folks didn't get the media air time though.

Skipper writes: So, how do you overcome the results of a poor election? One patrol selected for PL a scout who (I feel) is just not ready. He is narrowminded, has tunnel vision, is headstrong and has no patience; he yells and will likely be completely ineffective.

I believe you've accurately described the PL/SPL we had for the past year.

First, a bit of background on our troop which may help folks understand my perspective on this. Until last April, our troop was always small and at that point we had 9 scouts. We were one patrol. The guys like the title SPL, but in reality he was a patrol leader. Last September we had elections. He was the only guy running - age 13 and 1st class. Our three senior scouts decided not to run. Under pressure from other scouts, one of our seniors ran against him and won. The senior scout selected the 1st class guy to be ASPL/APL. After about a month, sr. scout realized he would not be able to give proper attention to the job, being very busy in 11th grade, marching band, etc. etc., and turned the job over to the 1st class guy.

So, 1st class guy, totally in it for himself, began his term. Always had an excuse why he couldn't make a campout or a meeting, so sr. scout in reality was our SPL/PL. He, along with my son were our PLC and took care of business. They complained about the 1st class guy, but my response was that they made their decision, all three could have run against him, sr. scout didn't have to step down, so live with it.

Younger guys at the time didn't like, nor did they respond well, to 1st class PL. It really was a tough year.

Which brings us to April, when we grew from 9 to 23 scouts. Patrick and our 3rd sr. scout were selected to be troop guides and spent time up to summer camp working with our two new scout patrols. It was fantastic. Then came summer camp and I had finally reached my breaking point with the SPL/PL. Open disrespect for me, screaming at the guys, no compassion or helpfulness for the new guys, among other things.

After summer camp it was time for our troop to form permanent patrols. Now, here comes the part where I believe many on this forum will disagree with me. With all due respect to those that feel the boys need to suffer the consequences of their actions and live with the results of their elections - let me say that while I agree with that in principle, there comes a time when adults must intervene.

1st class guy wanted to run again, either for SPL or as a patrol leader. I talked with him and suggested that he sit out of leadership for a term. No effect on his advancement here as he has several merit badges to go before Star Rank. Outrage, complete outrage received from the mom, veiled contempt from the scout. To the scout's credit, about a week later he came to me and asked if we could talk again. He said he realized he had areas to work on - especially compassion, respect for adults, and giving others the benefit of doubt (he's the type that is always right and everyone else is wrong).

Too much intervention on my part? Perhaps. But, he made a good point when he said that if the guys in the troop don't like him, then they won't elect him. Fair point.

The guys ran their elections for SPL and, in an interesting twist, my son ran unopposed. He's in 11th grade, just earned Eagle, and was one of the troop guides mentioned above. Overwhelming support for him. Then, he announced we would have a meeting the following week just for those that were interested in running for patrol leader or any of the troop level PORs. The guys decided to split the troop into three patrols and selected (not elected) patrol leaders for each from among those that showed up for the meeting. Agreed with their choices except for one, which I posted about it another thread.

Two weeks ago, with all the scouts in attendance except the 3rd patrol leader that I had concerns about, two patrols were formed and leaders in place. This decision to make 2 patrols instead of 3 came from the fact that the 3rd scout that wasn't there is a guy whose attendance is sporadic and one never knows when he's going to show up. Patrick, and a few others, figured that wouldn't make for a good PL.

Sorry for this long post, but I'm trying to describe our situation and how we handled things. What it came down to for us, was our three sr. scouts feeling great ownership in the success of our troop, how we turned around from adult-led to boy led largely because of their influence, and how they wanted to make sure that we kept all the new guys. So, when they decided we wouldn't have elections and they would pick the patrol leaders, I honestly had no problem at all with that. It was, in fact, what I would have done.

Next year will be a different story, though. We will most likely break out a third patrol after about six months. We anticipate receiving at least six new scouts in the spring and the guys suggest rather than having a new scout patrol we just roll them directly into the permanent patrols. Good idea I think. We will also have patrol leader elections at that time.

You post about your concerns for your small, young troop and that the actions of your SPL and PL may drive away prospective Webelos. That is a valid concern and one I had as well. In our case, we thankfully had two excellent older scouts working as Troop Guides with our new scouts and that shielded them from some of the impact of our SPL. When we were recruiting these new scouts we invited them to a couple of campouts. Some of our existing scouts mentioned to me that the campouts went really well, largely because the sr. scouts were running it and SPL was absent. Hmmm.

What it comes down to for me is just how much work are you willing to put into working with your new SPL. I'll tell you, last year was very hard for me. Any time I counseled that 1st class SPL and said something he didn't like hearing, I got a scathing phone call from his mother.

Beavah points out that many troop use some kind of criteria for the guys to be eligible to run - age, rank, prior experience, etc. These are good ideas, but can also backfire on you. For instance: your troop has a policy that only 14 year old Star Scouts can run for SPL. So, you wind up with only one guy eligible and he's the type of fellow you've described or you feel a guy shouldn't run unopposed. In that case, you lower the requirement from Star to 1st class. That opens the door for other guys to run. An immature but jovial fellow decides to run and wins by a single vote - all votes received from young scouts that he told would never have to do anything because he'd make all the older guys do the work. You spend the next six months listening to his mother complain that the job is too hard, too much responsibility, he's only 13 for God's sake, how can he possibly be expected to tell the older guys what to do, etc. etc.

Yeah, that's what happened to us two years ago. We only had two scouts elegible at the time and one had already served for a year. I felt it was wrong for my son to run unopposed (trying to not show an appearance of favoritism). I will NEVER do that again.

"...and, by God, I've had enough of this Congress..." again, John Adams per 1776.

Just to add: left-wing nuts call conservatives names, right-wing nuts call liberals names. No one owns the high ground on that.

Awe, jet, you didn't have to go and get personal about it, did you?

Where is the outrage folks?

Pastor Steven Anderson of Arizona gave a sermon entitled "Why I hate Barack Obama" and in it, among other things, he says he's going to pray for Barack Obama to die.

CNN yesterday was the only channel on which I've heard anything about this and saw a video clip of the sermon in which Anderson says to his congregation: I hate Barack Obama, I'm going to tell you why I hate Barack Obama, and let me tell you why GOD hates Barack Obama.

So, I ask again, where is the righteous indignation and outrage over this? Where is the endless replay of the video clip. Hello? Hello? Anyone?

Tort reform is indeed a state issue, so I am confused why so many people that should know that (our legislators) keep bringing up tort reform in a national bill. Go back to your states and get your state legislators to step up and write a bill.

One question I have for those that propose we be allowed to purchase health insurance across state lines.

Since I keep hearing the statistic that 85% of Americans with insurance are happy with their healthcare, and figuring that the vast majority of those people with jobs are getting their health insurance through their employer, how does allowing Americans the ability to buy insurance across state lines help?

Does this mean my employer could decide to get us all on BC/BS of North Carolina instead of BC/BS of South Carolina. Or, does it really come down to everyone that has insurance through their employer would no longer get employer-provided insurance and we would all have the privilege of going out on our own, as individuals, into the nationwide free marketplace to buy our insurance?

I don't think the 85% of Americans happy with their insurance would be too happy about the prospect of being on their own to go out and shop for insurance.

And, oh yeah, the Republican bill that some of them last night were waving around during the President's Speech is H.R. 3400. Haven't read anything about it yet.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.3400:

The Governor and the Congressman. South Carolina is certainly getting a good bit of national medial attention these days. At least the attention is on something other than our abysmal high school dropout rate, among other things.

Beagle Scout - we did something like that with a scout in our Troop. Three years ago he was the only fifth grader in his Webelos den. All the other guys were just starting out as Webelos and the den leader was working hard with them on earning their Webelos badge. This left the 5th grader, in his 2nd year as a Webelos scout, with essentially nothing to do. In January we invited him to our Troop to work with one of our Boy Scouts to help the fella finish his requirements for Arrow of Light. The boy loved the personal attention! Four months later, in April, he was awarded his Arrow of Light by his Cub Pack, with his entire new Boy Scout Troop in attendance, and officially became a Boy Scout.

Even though he met with our Troop for those few months, he was never registered as a Boy Scout until after he earned his AOL.

It's been an interesting summer. We grew from 9 to 22 scouts in April. At that time, we made two new scout patrols and gave each a Troop Guide to help them out for a little bit. We are having our annual troop planning weekend in a couple of weeks and the guys have elected a new SPL (yep, Patrick was finally elected. After the past year's struggle I had with the former SPL, I am looking forward to having an older, experienced guy at the helm).

SPL called a special meeting a couple of weeks ago for anyone wanting a position of responsibility and to talk about forming permanent patrols. OK, sounds good. The guys decided to form three permanent patrols, with a fourth patrol of the SPL, ASPL, QM, and JASM.

So, that makes three regular patrols of six. The adults thought that two patrols of nine would have been better, but the guys elected to do three of six. OK, their choice.

Then, this same group of guys, essentially everyone but the group that just joined, divided everyone up and selected from among themselves a patrol leader for each patrol to lead them. When I asked why they weren't going to hold elections for patrol leader the response was - we think the most experienced guy in a patrol should be the patrol leader. We've been there before with immature leaders and we don't want to go there again. I must say, two of the three selected to be patrol leaders will be terrific. The third, while having been in the troop for 3 years now, is something of a goofball, we never know when he's going to show up for a meeting or outing, and I'm not sure how effective he will be. Training begins.

So, the guys are certainly taking control of their troop. I think the year ahead will be interesting.

Ah, packsaddle, guess you haven't visited Greenwood, SC. I have never liked being addressed as Miss Karen, as the children here are taught to address adults. Very quizzical looks on the faces of new Scouts (and their parents) when they learn to address me as Mrs. Buchanan.

The requirement reads: c. Perform a conservation project approved by the landowner or land managing agency.

Now, it doesn't explicitly say while on a campout, but that is the way we read it since it states with the approval of the landowner or land managing agency. The intent, I believe, is to help the boys learn to take care of the land and environment so that others may continue to enjoy.

Welcome Doug! Happy Scouting.

Going to have to look more closely at the numbers, but the US infant mortality rate isn't very good either.

It certainly has been an interesting debate. My only question right now is why, if we truly provide the best health care in the world and people from other countries (those that have "government controlled healthcare") are rushing to ours, did the World Health Organization rank the United States 37th in the world in health care systems (2000). In a country with such a wonderful health care system, why do our citizens have a lower life expectancy than those in countries that have single payer or some other form of universal health care?

Would love to find the answer.

I would just like to point out that the Scouts must fill a Position of Responsibility not a Position of Leadership. Very different things.

Texas and Virginia - decreasing the surplus population?

Was chatting with a co-worker the other day. She was very upset about what she heard on the news about Obama Death Panel, socialized medicine in general and that not only will old people be euthanized but those with disabilities as well (thanks Ms. Palin).

When I asked her where she got her information, she mentioned she always watches Hannity and Glen Beck. I suggested she might want to check out some other information sources and maybe find out what the other side has to say. Heck, why not watch the debates on C-SPAN and listen for herself from the source.

She said, no way, all the others are lying, I'm not interested in what the other side has to say.

Very sad indeed.

gtscouter writes: I'm not sure where this troop stands as far as key issues like boy leadership. I don't want to insult anyone, but as CC I would like to know where the troop's strengths and weaknesses lie so that I can recruit adults to support the boys in areas where the needs are greatest.

That is one of the best things I've read on this forum. The Committee supporting the boys. Fantastic. You may consider taking some time to go to meetings between now and when your son crosses over. Start attending Troop Committee meetings now as an observer before you step into the role as CC. Go on campouts with the troop. No better way to find out how things work in the troop than from personal observation.

I don't have any additional advice to offer. Would say though that the regatta was much more fun for the boys than the derby. Sure, it's fun for a boy to sit his car on the track and watch it roll down, but it's much more fun blow on the sail of your boat with all your might to the finish line.

Agree with the others - at LEAST two campouts, could be five. As for service projects, we count working on community service projects as fulfilling both the one hour service project and one outing for 2nd class.

Interesting topic. The thing I think is most important to find out about a troop you are considering joining is just what goes on during a campout. You will found out more about how the troop functions (patrols, boy led, etc.) than during a regular scout meeting. Join them for a campout - more than one if you can.

Irsap - your list of questions is OK and covers most of the questions I've been asked by parents. But, with respect to John in KC, I wouldn't expect Webelos leaders or parents to be ready to start questioning the SPL or Troop Guide or any of the youth leaders. From my experience, Webelos leaders and parents usually have no idea about how a troop runs and it's the SM's job to talk to them.

The Webelos themselves don't care how the troop runs, whether it's boy led or not, how fast they'll get to first class, etc. etc. They are looking and will likely join a troop whose boys make them feel welcomed when they visit, a troop that has some cool stuff coming up on the calendar, and with whom they have fun.

Full uniform for traveling to and from. Funny, but the guys do stand a little taller when we stop at an eatery during the trip and 20 scouts pile in. They like the smiles they receive.

When the gas prices were over $4.00 and the economy was taking a nose dive, our guys were on their way to a backpacking trip in Georgia. Stopped at a rest stop for snacks and bathroom break. A trucker came up to one of the leaders and said he wasn't ever a scout himself, but thinks it's a great program. Handed our leader $20 and said he hoped it would help with the gas cost.

I guess my question is:

Your son sustained an injury while on a campout with the troop and the troop was found negligent. Your post seems to state that you agree that the troop was negligent.

Why then would you even care if they want to dismiss your son? Why would you want him to stay in that troop if you believe they were negligent?(This message has been edited by gwd-scouter)

I like the new socks. Very comfortable. Guys in the troop seem to like them too. Most didn't like to wear the red tops with uniform, but I noticed at summer camp that they all were wearing the new socks when in uniform.

As for the knee highs. Both of my sons have stated it's too bad they don't make them anymore. Neither would wear them when they were younger scouts, but it seems a lot of guys that work on camp staff wear them. As my older son said, "it's what all the cool kids wear."