gwd-scouter

MattR, you ask how much of your meetings should be geared toward the campout? Do your scouts use troop meeting plans each month? For instance, you have a backpack trip coming up. Do your scouts plan to go over different types of backpacks, how and what to pack, how to use a backpack stove, lightweight food options, etc.? All of these skills instructions could be worked into your meetings leading up to the trip.

Car camping at the state park? Will the campout have a theme? A cooking challenge can be fun. Patrols working up skits or songs for the campfire could be part of one meeting. Naturally you'll have menu and duty roster planning for another. Maybe patrol competitions are the plan for the weekend. A whole bunch of options for meeting plans there. Rather than having the adults plan the competitions, let each patrol plan them. You may be surprised at the imagination of your guys when they get to come up with their own ideas for games.

Looking back, there are several things that made the difference in participation in our Troop. The first was the aging out of our wet-blanket older boys that did not want to buy into the boy-led patrol method.

We put a stop to canceling trips because of poor participation. If only three guys signed up, we went anyway. We concentrated on training the younger scouts to take ownership of their troop and after a few years it took hold. As I mentioned in my previous post, they did require a lot of jump-starting by the adults but eventually they got the idea. Getting our adults to step back and let the guys run the show, even if chaos ensued, was a challenge. Once I heard the guys saying "if we plan it, we can do it," I knew we were on the right path.

Our guys enjoy the more adventurous activities, but they also enjoy the free flowing, no real schedule campouts they have a couple of times a year. Maybe because on those campouts they are free to hang out together, play games, and just be boys. Even though those campouts look like nothing more than fun, they are learning things along the way.

I've enjoyed reading the advice to BrentAllen. Our Troop is in a similar situation. We jumped from 9 to 24 scouts and right now have two new scout patrols for six each led by a 16 year old troop guide. Our 17 year old is a JASM and the first we've ever had in that position - doing a fantastic job, too. We have an SPL who needs a lot of guidance.

Taking those four away that leaves our core group of scouts as a third patrol - the dynamite patrol. It has six members, grades 6-8.

The two new scout patrols are doing marvelously well. The dynamite patrol is something of a disaster. Our three senior scouts have been the driving force of junior leadership in our troop and it's really the first time the middle school guys have had to step up and take some control on their own. Problem is, four of the guys in the dynamite patrol want to be the guy in charge and no one wants to listen to anyone else. Our current SPL is not much help for the patrol leader, often making decisions for him or overruling him. JASM is trying to work with the SPL and help him learn, but SPL doesn't pay much attention.

In just a couple of weeks, the two troop guides will be leaving to work at camp for the summer, leaving the new scout patrols without a leader. Since these patrols seem to working out well, what do you folks think of us dismantling the dynamite patrol and having those guys split up and move into the new scout patrols thus forming two permanent mixed age patrols? This suggestion has been made by a couple of the boys in the dynamite patrol and I think it's a pretty good one. A couple of those guys that are fighting over leadership would actually make good PLs once they had the position, some more training, and got separated.

I do know that there are personality issues involved and a couple of guys I'd like to see in separate patrols. How much control on that kind of thing do you feel is proper for the Scoutmaster? The new guys, for the most part, are hard working and eager and I wouldn't want to destroy the tenuous teamwork they've built so far by adding in a couple of middle schoolers that spend all their time bickering.

Welcome to the forum!

My first question is why adding boys to your den would impact your wallet?

If the boys do not join your den, where will they go? Will they have to find another pack? Just drop out? Imagine for a moment that due to personal circumstances you could no longer be den leader for your son. How would you feel if another den leader in the Pack said, 'sorry, all full, you're son can't join us'. Even worse, how would your son feel?

No, the Cubmaster can't force you to accept more members in your den any more than he/she can force you to volunteer your time as a den leader. Will you tell the two boys they are not welcome in your den, or will you leave that to the Cubmaster? Hopefully, the other den leader will not think a den of 10 is too much to handle.

Saw an I-phone commercial last night.

Need to find directions? There's an app for that.

Need to know if that's a red headed warbler? There's an app for that.

Need to know if what you're standing in is dangerous. There's an app for that too.

Oh well, I guess we Birkenstock-wearing Luddites will eventually be absorbed.

So many posts with very good justifications for a no cell phone policy on campouts. Also good posts about teaching responsibility and such. Problem I have is that we can teach responsible use all we want as leaders - one hour a week, one weekend a month. But, that does nothing against the parents who don't back it up.

As a SM, I have a very real problem with parents who decide that 'rules' don't apply to their son. What kind of lesson in responsibility is that teaching? Honestly, I would rather the parent pull their son from our Troop than have them telling him he can just ignore something I, or his patrol leader, or the PLC have said or asked. Yes, yes, those parents can tell their son all they want that, for instance, the no electronics policy is ridiculous and they know delightful Johnny Scout would never abuse the privilege. But, what about the next thing his patrol leader or the Scoutmaster asks? Can he just ignore that, too?

Yep, I've met a lot of parents who would say that "their" son is very responsible, mature for his age, yada yada yada. Genuine surprise or outright denial when I suggest after we get home that we had some difficulty with the boy on the campout. I would say we don't have any arbitrary rules and we don't suddenly impose one because of a one-time incident or a knee jerk reaction to something that happened on a trip. I know there are folks here that would say that a Troop shouldn't have any rules at all other than living up to the Scout Oath and Law. OK, I'll buy that. No electronics in our Troop springs mostly from a scout being courteous. Almost all the boys have phones and none have them have been taught its courteous use. So, we try. If your SM asks that the scouts do not bring cell phones, how are you helping your scout to be trustworthy if you tell your son it's OK to ignore that request?

A recent example of parents deciding what it best for their son. We make is clearly known to the boys and their parents that the boys are not to bring candy, soft drinks and other snacks on a campout. The boys plan their menus and that's what there is to eat and drink. Adults follow the same. This past weekend we had a scout very sick on Saturday morning. After his trip to the emergency room and a vague diagnosis of perhaps a stomach bug, over exertion, dehydration, his parents collect him and take him home. Back at camp we gather up his things. In his backpack was a bag - a big bag - of skittles, crackers, chips, sugary fruit drinks, slim jims. Turns out his tent mate tells us that the boy ate a pretty large quantity of that stuff before he went to sleep. After thinking about it, I remember that same scout having some stomach issues in the morning on our last campout.

Sometimes scout leaders create rules just to make their lives easier. A blanket policy may not seem fair to you because you think your son is responsible enough to use his phone wisely and courteously. Imagine the SM that has to decide among 30 or 40 scouts who is responsible, who isn't, who will make calls home that alarm parents, who will surf the internet at 3 in the morning, etc. etc.

From time to time I've mused about whether Scouting is relevant to today's youth. Then I read an 11th grader's facebook page and in his interests he posts that he's a Boy Scout "because that's what awesome people do" or the recent comment my son made that he sees a lot of guys at school (High School) wearing switchback pants and scouting Tshirts and, as he put it, actually admitting they are Boy Scouts. He wears scout Tshirts to school all the time and when teased by another student son said, "Well, I spend weekends whitewater rafting, rock climbing, exploring caves, hiking the AT....what do YOU do?"

Scouting may not appeal to many of our techno-centered youth of today, but I don't think the dorkiness factor is anything new. It existed in the 60s when my brothers were in Scouts, long before computer games and playstations.

As far as Scouting being an activity for Cleaver families, not the case in our Troop nor in others in this District. Maybe because we're a small Southern town. Almost half of the boys in my Troop are in single parent situations. Several are receiving camperships for summer camp and FOS money for uniforms and handbooks. Even folks that don't necessarily qualify for FOS money take advantage of our uniform closet. I hear the same story from other leaders in other Troops/Packs in the District.

There is an area that I've often wondered about. When you take a look at the Cub Packs in our District, they seem to cover the demographics of our area pretty well. Whites and blacks anyway. Hispanic not so much. For some reason, however, we have very few black kids at the Boy Scout level. I'm not sure why that happens.

Yep, although rare, I have lost my cool with a scout - in front of boys, adults, and parents. Certainly I felt bad about it and apologized. Didn't try to make excuses that it was somehow the scout's fault for pushing me too far, just apologized for my behavior.

That's not to say that I just let the whole thing go. I used the opportunity to later have a chat with the Scout and his parent(s) so that we could talk about what was usually ongoing and over-the-top disruptive behavior.

I don't remember much of scouting in my youth. Being a Girl Scout in the 60's was dreadful and I wanted to be a Boy Scout like my brothers.

Fortunately, I have two sons and through them I've had the most marvelous fifteen years in Scouting. I cannot begin to write what all those years have done for me. I think often that I've gotten much more out of Scouting than I have given. After years of Cubmastership and Cub Resident Camp Director, standing in front of a crowd and leading songs and generally acting goofy, I no longer have the paralyzing fear of public speaking.

The best memories come when I attend and Eagle Court of Honor for a boy who was once one of my cub scouts. Most recently, the Eagle Scout's parents had a slide show going during the reception. Several photos of Eagle Scout as a Cub receiving an award from his Cubmaster, or standing next to me on a campout. My we looked so young!

In the Cub Scout years I remember taking my Webelos Den to Cub Resident Camp for the first time. Many of those boys had never been out of town and I still remember the look on their faces when we topped a hill along the drive and they saw mountains for the first time. Their amazement at how noisy the woods were at night. How dark it got. Swimming in a natural lake.

So many memories of new Boy Scouts learning to do something for the first time. Watching the struggle and the triumph of accomplishment. New guys refusing to jump in the lake their first time at summer camp. Those same new guys getting over their fear and excitedly announcing that they passed the swimmer's test.

The amazement on their faces the first time they try roasted pineapple. The nicknames they earn because of some blunder on a campout and how they come to embrace that nickname as a badge of honor, always eager to tell a new scout how they earned the name. The general silliness and imagination of a group of "too cool" teenagers playing a made up game during free time.

The transformation of a boy thinking 'what's in it for me' to 'how can I help you'. The sayings that have become legend in our troop - sometimes a guy's just gotta barf (sick first year camper), hey look, Patrick, more up (a very strenuous hike), you better be good or Patrick will beat you with a broom (Patrick's disastrous first attempt at leadership, although it has become something of a fish story over the years), allow me to demonstrate the Webelos Leader to Boy Scout Leader transition kit (new ASM), I heard a bear, I know I heard a bear (that scout has the nickname bear bait), make sure you wear gloves when you lift that pot handle....OK make sure you wear dry gloves (very nice burn on my hand which led to me being presented with our troop's OSHA gloves - Official Scoutmaster Hothandling Apparatus), and my favorite - Mrs. B., you're not a regular girl.

So many priceless memories.

That's what I thought. Figured I'd ask anyway. Thanks.

Welcome bullmoose.

Always learning something on the forum. I didn't know it was illegal to pick up arrowheads found on state and federal land. Not that I've ever found any, but what's the reason?

No, only Scoutmasters.

We expect our scouts to read their handbooks. They can gather a lot of good information in there. We expect them to do the requirements as listed for advancement. But, if we want to get really picky about it all, what the handbook describes to the scouts and what the requirements say (or don't say) can cause some interesting debate.

For example, the uniform. First let me state that I've read on this forum for numerous years that a uniform is not required to be a Boy Scout. OK, I'll buy that. I would like to know where that is specifically written, though. It is not in the handbook. In fact, the handbook states "Wear full uniform for all ceremonial and indoor activities, such as troop meetings, courts of honor, and most other indoor functions."

So, a Scout reads that and takes it to mean that he should wear his uniform. What's the problem? It always seems to come down to some adult deciding that since the actual requirement for advancement doesn't say a scout should wear his uniform, it therefore is insidious adding to the requirements by some scouters if they ask their scouts to do so in their troops.

Yep, I'll go back to the flag again. My apologies in advance for beating this horse, but this is really bugging me.

Handbook shows a very nice picture of a homemade patrol flag. "Each patrol has a flag it can carry at troop meetings and on campouts..." So, it seems clear to me that the requirement to describe your patrol flag means you have an actual flag. Guess I could blame the scouts for this interpretation. After all, it was both new scout patrols a couple of weeks ago that decided they needed a patrol flag.

I suppose we could all get nit picky about every little word in the advancements or whether or not it's fair for one kid to do something another didn't have to. What would you do in this situation? Second class one hour service project requirement. Say for instance a patrol plans to work at the soup kitchen for a couple of hours. One boy who hasn't completed the requirement can't make it. No problem, the others that need the requirement go for a couple of hours and get the requirement signed off. Then next service project comes up and it's an hour of picking up litter along the road and around the church where the scouts meet. Another scout picks up his 2nd class service project. But, wait a minute, that's not fair - he only did an hour, some guys a couple of months ago worked two hours.

My point is for those of you that are worried about adding to requirements, do your guys plan the 2nd class service project to be an hour and only an hour?

I don't know about others, but so far I've never had a young scout approach me because he's having difficulty understanding a requirement for advancement. The things I hear are, "hey Mrs. B., Patrick just signed me off for such and such - want me to show you?" Just from my experience, those young guys know when they've done something, when they haven't, and when to their way of thinking they sneak something through.

I have had older scouts come for some interpretation from time to time, but only rarely has it been with the goal of diminishing requirements or making something easier.

I used to serve as District Training Chair. In those days, our District Committee was made up almost solely of folks from the mega-pack (for which I was Cub Master) and leaders from the mega-troop. The ideas and agenda became focused around the way the Troop did things. Roundtable meetings were poorly attended. I made a comment once or twice at Committee meetings that perhaps we should reach out and get volunteers from other units. Perhaps the Committee had become to "in-bred" and folks in other units think they can't have any input on what goes on.

Still, our Committee Chair, Training Chair, Advancement Chair, and Commissioner are all current or former ASMs of the mega-troop. Over the years, though, folks from other units have begun to speak up and volunteer to do things - such as organizing the district camporees. Advancement Chair is a fair minded individual and is doing the best job of anyone ever in that position. All of our advancement chairs have come from the mega-troop and some of the rules imposed on Eagle candidates have been ridiculous, but, as I stated, the man now in the position is doing a fantastic job.

Training Chair has been doing it for too long and falls back a lot on the old way of doing things. Even dispenses some incorrect information - like having to travel in uniform for insurance purposes.

Complaints can be made about the practices of some of our district volunteers. The problem is our district has now and always has had many many vacancies. Unit Commissioners is the best example. Calls for volunteers go unanswered. I'm sure DE and District Chair would welcome anyone with enthusiasm and good ideas to step up and volunteer to serve on the district level. Unfortunately, pleas for volunteers go unanswered and most times they just have to take whatever warm bodies show up.

Edited to add: The bit about unit scouters bringing their troop customs with them to committee jobs. Years ago I sat on an Eagle BOR. The Advancement Chair and the other member of the Board were ASMs in the mega-troop. Candidate shows up in his uniform shirt and blue jeans. The review was conducted and candidate was asked to step out of the room. The other two board members made a big deal of the fact that he was not in uniform. Their troop is a full uniform troop, as is mine. But, I mentioned to them both that not all troops have that custom and some only ask the guys to wear the shirt. I thought it was not fair or even appropriate to impose their troop's customs on the guy. They didn't agree with me, but the new Eagle was granted. I've noticed over the years though that the Advancement Chair has lightened up on the uniforming thing.(This message has been edited by gwd-scouter)

My son received Boy Scout underwear as a Christmas gift. I was nagging him about his uniform one day. He was wearing his gray venturing socks with the tan/green uniform. He said, "next thing you know, you'll be telling me I have to wear Boy Scout underwear."

So, I sewed the First Class rank patch on the front of a pair of briefs and wrapped them up. In our family, we look forward to the annual giving of gag gifts.

Beavah, I've been thinking about this recently too. Not because of anything happening in the Troop, but because of things I've read on the forum.

Common threads on the forum are from upset parents complaining about their son's SM or troop's practices. A common theme is that their son's advancement progress is being slowed or he's expected to do too much.

The recent post about patrol flags is an example. To most people, and I'm taking a big assumption here, the requirement to describe the patrol flag means to describe something tangible. You know, something that exists. If a new scout joins an existing patrol that already has a flag - great, describe it. If he and other new scouts are made into a new scout patrol that doesn't yet have a flag - great, make one. Indeed, the requirement is to describe, not to "make," but thinking that asking a new scout to work with his patrol on making an actual flag and not using a drawing on a piece of paper is somehow unfair to him and slowing his Tenderfoot advancement is simply ridiculous.

Uniforms is another one. It's true that a boy does not have to own a uniform to be a Boy Scout. It's also true that I've never known a guy that shows up to his Eagle BOR without his uniform to have NEVER worn a uniform through all his time in Scouting. Personally, I see nothing wrong in expecting a boy who is asking for Scouting's highest honor to show respect for that honor and for the organization giving it to wear the uniform fully and proudly.

Sadly, though, I have known scouts and parents that view scouting as nothing more than check marks in a book and a patch on a shirt. For those folks, there will always be the questioning of requirements and the parsing of words to the point that their interpretation of what those requirements mean will lead to quicker advancement and a smooth easy glide to Eagle.

Congrats CA-Scouter!

Another thought about the official BSA thong - it will alleviate those unsightly panty lines for the ladies.

In Council price for our camp is $185 for regular programs and $210 for high adventure, $95 for leaders. A bargain for a full week of fun and adventure in the beautiful blue ridge mountains. The fee is higher for out of council troops: $210 for regular program, $240 for high adventure. I do know that we get a lot of out of council troops every summer, most from Florida. The Florida guys say they love it up in the mountains. It is always funny to watch their reaction when it rains. You can count the seconds before one of them says - wow, this rain is COLD!

Blue Ridge Council, South Carolina runs a new scout program called Pathfinders at our camp - Camp Old Indian. I figure it's like many new scout programs in that it does some things very well, others not so much.

The guys are put into patrols, usually with scouts from the same troop kept together. They come up with a name and a cheer which one can hear all over camp as the patrols move from one activity to another. If patrols are kept together from their home troop, they use the name and cheer they already have. The counselors cover the requirements from Tenderfoot through First Class. Games are added to emphasize what they learn. The stretcher races and 2-man carry are especially fun to watch. Program Director always asks for SMs or ASMs to help out if they can. This year we have three new ASMs that want to help, two mainly because their sons have autism and need a little more guidance.

The program runs all day. In the evenings the scouts can work on merit badges offered during twilight sessions or they can just use the free time to do whatever they want. Some do the merit badges, some choose to swim, some want to try out the shooting range, some just play around in the meadow.

The program literature makes it clear that while the scouts will learn a lot of things for the requirements, they will not be signed off on them. That is up to their home troop to ask the scouts to demonstrate the skills they've learned and sign off. During the evenings after the twilight activities are closed and they guys have a couple of hours before lights out, we ask if any of the pathfinders have something to show us. Almost always they do and if they can show proficiency in the skill, we sign their handbooks.

In our troop, we view the pathfinder program, as well as summer camp in general, not so much with an eye on advancement, but as a chance for a scout to have fun, spend time with his fellow scouts, try something new, and...did I mention have fun?

In that, the pathfinder program is a wonderful first year experience for our scouts. Our new Scout patrols are kept together, work together, play together. They form stronger friendships. Yes, sometimes they complain that a particular session was boring and I'll admit over the years we've had some less than stellar counselors. But, usually the counselors selected are older and are picked because they really enjoy working with new scouts. The Pathfinder Program Director is fantastic and has been director now for three years. As some have stated here that the new scout programs seem to get the least desirable counselors, that is not the case with our program - at least not from my viewpoint.

What it comes down to I guess is a new scout program will be judged based a lot on the expectations of the Troop. Do you want your new scout program to just be an advancement opportunity or are you looking for a fun and memorable experience for the new guys?

Anyone notice that OGE hasn't responded back on this topic? Hmmm, poking a stick at the forum folks maybe?

I think the criticism of our council's first year camper program is valid from some SM's viewpoints. Other SMs I know think it's a marvelous program and all their new scouts go through it.

The program covers most of the T-1st class requirements during the week. Knots and lashings, fire building, swimming, nature, first aid, and so on. All the while combining games with learning. From the viewpoint of all the boys in our Troop that have participated, it's a lot of fun.

Here's where SMs differ on the program. Literature from camp makes it clear that the scouts are not signed off on any requirements. It is up to the troop to do that. But, some troops do count it as a signoff and credit the boys with everything. Then, when the guys can't actually perform any of the skills on a campout they blame the lousy pathfinder program. From my experience, it's not that the boys aren't learning anything in the program, it's that it isn't being reinforced back in their troop.

For example: during the week after evening activities are finished and we have a couple of hours in the campsite, we ask the guys if they have anything they'd like to demonstrate. They always do - especially starting a fire. If a scout camp demonstrate a skill, he gets signed off.

I realize my post came off a bit strong. If SM doesn't like the pathfinders and wants his scout to do merit badges for the first year, that's OK. Not my call. It really does come down to me wanting this scout to have a great first year at camp and concern about him being on his own during the day without a couple of pals to hang with.

And there's where we will disagree. First year campers take first aid and swimming merit badges which goes a long way in satisfying the T-1st class requirements. Problem with that is, the first requirement for first aid merit badge is that a scout has completed his first aid requirements to first class. Don't have so much of a problem with swimming merit badge the first year, but not as an end run around actually doing the Tenderfoot to first class requirements. I get very tired of folks combining activities to satisfy requirements in an effort to race along the advancement trail.

Sorry, but this is a real sore spot with me.

Edited to add: Oops, hijacking my own thread.

(This message has been edited by gwd-scouter)

Good grief, can't Miss California just go away.

Scoutmasters in Speedos? Oh, the humanity!

I certainly understand how you all see it that way. Maybe I didn't explain it very clearly and perhaps this isn't a problem for fgoodwin.

We received Webelos crossovers in late March from one Pack. That Pack sent in their recharter in February without those boys being reregistered. Therefore, those boys' annual registration expired. We had to send in $10 registration on those guys.