Gags

I'm curious about their "agenda" for the day - did they have any activities planned, or was it mostly spent preparing camp, cooking, and just hanging out, basking in the glow of the day's accomplishments?

Gags

Kathy,

Not sure where in Iowa you are, but there's a permanent orienteering course near Boone: http://www.mnoc.org/venue.shtml?id=172 , just in case you'd like to get the requirement done sooner. Going from memory, I don't believe the course has to be completed as part of the a troop/patrol activity. (Why they require measuring the height or width of an object as part of the "O" course, I'm not sure. Would fit better as part of the 5 mile hike. But that's another topic.)

--Gags

Regarding recognition for the TG's, I guess I agree with Dean. However, I was in the same TG/Instructor position once, and what I would have appreciated more than a pat on the back from the adults was a thank you from the scouts in my patrol.

If you assist with the new Scout program, is it possible to make a suggestion to the patrol members about maybe making some sort of patrol totem or other gift to present to the TG at the end of their program? Doing this in front of the entire troop (which sounds fairly large) may even trigger something in the other "POR in Name Only" scouts (please don't try to make an acronym out of that one!)to be a bit more involved.

And also as another poster mentioned - why have a troop game or patrol competition if you're excluding 2 whole patrols from the event?

--Gags

Probably should have asked this around page 2 or 3 of this thread - but is it too late to transfer to another troop? I can't recall if your son turned 18 in late spring or not.

However, looks like the "perp" has already complied with the Troops wishes, and done everything that was asked of him - wrote a letter of apology, apologized to the other adults, stayed away for a year. What's the point of the "punishment" if he's not being accepted back into the group afterward, other than being a power trip for the committee? (See, look what we can do - we made him jump through all these hoops, and the poor sucker doesn't know we're still not going to let him back in).

This can LOOSELY be related to a current case before the Supreme Court (SCOTUS) - child sex offenders served their full prison terms, but they are not being released. Maybe they should have thought of that before they only gave them 2-5 years?

As for Mike - are there deeper issues here? Yes - as a husband, I would not want someone fondling my wifes backsides (ok - maybe that should be singular to avoid implying anything about her weight). But to threaten to pull out of the troop just because he's around at a meeting? Was it really that egregious a violation (borderline "groping"), or is there a jealousy factor that Mike may just have to suck-up and deal with?

As for removing a parent - I think you've already handled it properly - that's a Committee role. Unless he's an ASM, the SM can let others issue the "thanks but no thanks" statements.

Lastly - it wasn't clear if an apology to the adults was directly given by Jack to the offended parties - if not, that could explain the ongoing uneasiness (and contradict what I mentioned above), and should be placed in the "this would be a good thing to do asap" column.

Best of luck with your situation - I'm sure you'll get plenty of feedback on this one!

Gags

I'm going to take a slightly opposite approach.

Maybe you should be looking for more DL's like her? DL's who show initiative and don't need their hand held every step of the way. She was in charge of planning the event, right?

You also make it sound as if she was siphoning off funds - but we don't have the whole story here (seems to be a common theme of late!). The event was in April - it's the beginning of June. That's what - 40 days? 6 weeks? I've gone months carrying around money in my uniform pocket that were reimbursements from food costs for a camping trip - how much money are we talking about here?

But to suddenly spring the CC and COR on her to return the money, instead of having the Treasurer make a friendly request? Well, congratulations on having an active COR, but good luck finding a replacement DL.

And I understand the liability issues of handing out the Tax ID # to everyone - but if you're purchasing supplies for a 100+ person picnic (attendance assumption on my part), some businesses require the # so they won't have to charge you sales tax. (Scout is thrifty?) IIRC, the non-profit isn't required to file any "we avoided the following sales tax" forms come April. But I'm not a tax expert, so I'm willing to stand corrected.

Anyway, as someone who's an expert at "I'll get around to cashing that check tomorrow", just thought I'd present a different perspective.

Cheers,

Gags

Hal,

I think we attended the same presentation (in Falls Church). I'm wondering what your thoughts are on the future of Goshen - I didn't get a clear answer when I asked what percentage of Goshen's land (of the ~5000 acres) would be developed.

I realize much of the camp borders designated wilderness/park land, but looking at the initial footprint on the map, not much of the current camp will be left untouched.

It's nice we'll have great training facilities (although who on the East Coast is going to travel 3 hours for training?), and an improved waterfront, but I picture future summer camps as a sort of "after the plague" scenario - there will be so much excessive infrastructure during the non-Jambo years that it may seem we're camping in an abandoned city vs. summer camp. (OK, so this last statement may seem excessive - I've never visited AP Hill in the "off-season", but that's my first impression, at least).

Regarding some earlier comments - my understanding is that the fly-overs of military planes are practice runs - either with the dam itself as the "target", or there is a beacon or other device in the dam (built by Army Corp of Eng)the planes use to lock on to.

Also will be curious to see how they handle traffic through Goshen Pass - they intentionally send people through Staunton to avoid this road - not sure how they will route people to Goshen coming from the South.

YiS,

Gags

SMT224,

Having interned for a few months in a Congresswoman's office, I can attest to the nearly 100% use of form letters.

Quite likely it was read and written/mail merged by the current intern (there usually 2 days a week for 1 semester) or the Staff Assistant (usually fresh out of college), who may not have read the entire letter, or communicated it properly to the ultimate author.

I wouldn't take this as a personal insult - it's more a clerical error that has come at the worst possible time.

I would contact the nearest local office (each Senator usually has at least 2 or more in the state, especially for the larger states), and ask to speak to a staff member or office manager. I would think you would have a corrected letter in your hands in no time.

Given what everyone involved has been through, I'd be more than happy to contact the main office for you in person (I live and work near DC).

Please let us know how the event goes. As a parent of a 2 1/2 year old, I'm already dreading the thought of her on the roads in 15 years.

--Gags

Quite certain this is a record - how many 4 page threads are read in 2 minutes or less?

Escalting the "racoon...tent" pairing to:

skunk...tent.

Other possibilities:

Don't tell...

Watch this...

chocolate...pocket

and

Tenderfoot...cooking

Gags

SSScout,

Sorry for introducing a bit of levity into the conversation, but perhaps you may want to clarify / reword your last statement of: "FMs did much good work (burn hospitals, etc.)".

I just can't get the image out of my head of rogue(sp?) mobs of Masons with torches and pitchforks running around town searching for medical buildings to destroy. :-)

Gags

Just to clarify what may not have been mentioned earlier - both adults do not need to be registered Scouters.

Per the G2SS: "Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings."

I read this to mean that all of the following scenarios are TECHNICALLY allowed:

a.) an 18 year old ASM and a parent 21 or older

b.) an 18 year old ASM and his best friend who's 21 but not a Scouter

c.) a 21 year old ASM and his best friend who's 18 but not a Scouter

d.) a 30+ year old SM and his 30+ year old wife.

It seems like they added the "parent" wording to discourage the fact that any 2nd adult would do, but didn't want to handcuff the units by always requiring 2 registered leaders for every trip.

I now stand ready to be corrected.

YiS,

Gags

Just adding to list of good suggestions:

1. Buy hiking poles. Do not pass go until this item is completed.

If you have any sort of knee problem, you will be amazed at how helpful a pair of hiking poles will be. These are differnt than a single hiking stick - think of adjustable ski poles. I can write paragraphs about how much more comfortable it is to go downhill now while using them. You won't be the only one on the trail using them.

2. Strengthen the knee

a.) Several years ago I read about a study involving Marines, hiking, and knee problems. (Possibly in Muscular Development Magazine? Since this isn't wikipedia or a mid-term, I'm not going to worry too much about citation!) Study basically showed that Marines who incorporated squats into their training regimen (which as you could imagine already included plenty of hiking) reduced future knee injuries. Squats are one of those "all over" exercises that target a whole range of muscles - particulary the ones around the knee. If you're the least bit unsure how to perform a proper one, be sure to ask a trainer (key is not to force your knees out past your toes). I don't think you need to be squatting 200+ lbs to start seeing benefits. Even an "empty" bar will weigh 45 lbs and give you a workout with increased reps.

b.) The other big knee strengthener is biking. Since I see you're already doing that, I'll just say keep up the good work, and be sure to find a hill or two to ride up.

3. Rest!

Make sure you incorporate at least 2 days where you let your body recover. Last thing you want to do is wear yourself out and incurring stress induced injuries (shin splints, etc.)before you even get to the main event.

4. Lastly - when you hike around town - wear the boots you'll be wearing on the trail - break them in, and be sure you know they'll fit the same walking through the park as when you have a 40-50lb pack on.

Enjoy your fitness level while it lasts - in 10 years you'll be saying "man, I wish I could get in shape like I was in college!"

Gags

Do we know if the boys were told "no spitting off the top of the lighthouse"?

I could understand being upset about the spitting in general if there were other people around - but if it was a remote lighthouse, no other people around - I for one would not be able to resist the temptation - be it lighthouse or cliff (look up Cliffs of Mohr - now that's a cliff!).

Also, it's not clear if the boys said "No", or just stood there and didn't say anything for the first minute until the second ASM arrived. I know I was never too quick with begging for forgiveness when confronted by an angry adult - kids are "trained" (conditioned?) to usually wait until the adult finishes their tirade / lecture before entering their plea (it wasn't me, he did it, I was bored...)

Back briefly to my original point - no, we don't need to point out the obvious rules - "no stabbing the PL with the knife", "no yelling 'fire!' in a crowded theatre". But I think given the situation - boys alone at the top of a lighthouse - there's a large gray area of expected (and acceptable) behavior.

--Gags

I'm really not trying to keep this thread open just to get "last post" honors - but in defence of the SM - I believe at one point there was a limit on how long a partial was good for. A quick google search didn't help me find anything stating this, though. The "partials are good until age 18" (if accepted by the MBC, of course)rule has been around since at least the mid-'80s. So your SM may either have been going off an outdated rule, or an outdated scouting myth.

Either way, you said you already had the answer - just wanted to point out that at one point in the distant past, it could have been a valid rule.

Gags

Sylvar, I realize you may have already found your answer, but it seems like you're giving to much credence to the role the SM has in the MB process.

Yes, they sign the blue card (and there's been some debate at this step as well as to whether the SM can really limit who the Scout chooses as a MBC, but that's another topic).

But completing the requirements is between the Scout and the MBC. If the Scout needs a list from the SM to tell him which requirements he's completed at a recent camporee - is the scout really ready to work on a MB? He should be able to read the requirements, and tell the counselor "yes, at the camporee last month, we participated in a camp-wide emergency preparedness drill", or "last month, I helped hang orienteering markers for the afternoons orienteering competition".

I'm speaking from the land of assumption, but I'm fairly certain none of the links above will contain the wording: "A scout can only satisfy requirements after he's contacted a MBC / after a blue card is signed, etc". Nor will you find the statement "requirements completed at any time while Scouting must be accepted by the MBC", which seems to be the only way to appease your SM.

To make a long answer longer - here's a sentence from the MBC Instructors Guide: "The counselor suggests that the Scout bring the merit badge pamphlet, the Application for Merit Badge, and any work that he has started or accomplished, and that he prepare by reading over the requirements." (my emphasis) This clearly implies that there are some cases where work has been done before hand.

Another way to look at it - there are only a few requirements that begin "while a XXX Scout", such as the Eagle Project: "while a Life Scout...". I've never seen a MB requirement that says "once a blue card is in hand, spend 20 nights campings, attend a city council meeting, etc."

Lastly - I realize you may just be using this as a hypothetical, but you stated: "if a scout has his 5 targets and the SM knows they were fairly shot (not altered) I don't think he has a right to keep the scout from submitting them to the MBC." Does your SM usually collect all the targets? Was this after a troop shoot? I would think most Scouts would just hold onto their targets after they replaced them. Just not sure how exactly the SM could prevent a scout from submitting them to the MBC.

Best of luck with your new position.

Gags

From Mark's 2nd post:

"The SPL signed off that the boy completed the requirement. However, it was clear to the adults that he really did not complete the requirement. Sometimes in a boy-run program, we let them suffer the consequences of their mistakes."

Not to derail the current debate over what a signed handbook really means, but no one's brought up the fact that it was the SPL that signed off on the requirement. I think a point we may be missing is that accountability should start with the SPL. Do we know _why_ he signed off? Was he aware that the requirement wasn't met? Does the SPL have any suggestions on how to help remedy the situation?

YiS,

Gags

Welcome to the forums - I was just in Somers this weekend for my mother-in-law's 60th. My wife grew up there.

Glad to see more scouts joining the forum - I hope you're an active member - new perspectives are always needed!

Gags

I was wondering who to "blame" for putting my name in the hat, having also just received the packet. Now I have to figure out how to break the news to my wife. Probably easier to get permission to go for a week than a 14 day trip with a troop - not quite the same, but at least I'm getting to Philmont.

I don't think my wife will be too interested in pottery demonstrations, museum tours, and COPE courses, to say nothing of the sleeping on a cot for 6 nights. Maybe this is a good time for the in-laws to come visit and spend some time with their grandaughter.

The cost is surprisingly cheap - $420 including food. WB for me 5 years ago was around $220. What's everyone's experience been cost-wise for flights / transportation from the Mid-Atlantic area?

Gags

I believe my former District began running into the problem of "stacked" patrols some time ago. (I think my troop may have contributed slightly to that perception, but we were definitely not alone in that regard).

The simplest solution is to average the scores across the whole troop. It's possible the same "senior" patrol may win first place in 3 out of 8 events, but if the troops other patrols are not up to the task, than the best overall troop will be given to someone else. If you have at least 10-15 troops participating, I would be surprised if one patrol can consistently dominate each event.

For the sled race - I've seen a district run two divisions - an "upper" and a "lower". I would break it down by age (no more than 1 scout over the age of 15 per lower division patrol, or something to that effect). Scout rank doesn't matter as much in a sled race. As long as both divisions count equally towards overall standings (if you're tracking that at the troop level), it may become more about bragging rights (aka Scout Spirit) than optimizing points in the standings.

My .02 worth,

Gags

This is just a general request to those of you out there who promote the DAM at the annual dinners and the like.

It seems like each of the past several years, after the awards are given, the scouter who runs the nominating committee reminds everyone that "we can give out 3 awards each year, but this year we only received 2 (or 1) applications."

I haven't quite got around to telling him yet that he's making it sound like the two who received the DAM only minutes ago were given the award because they were the only ones who were nominated - NOT because they were deserving of the award, regardless of the # of nominations submitted.

Speaking of awards, 2 years ago all the Dist Comm members were awarded the District Comm Members Key. I'm quite certain none of us completed all the requirements (particularly the D.Comm Training Workshop). It was a nice thought on behalf of the district leadership to recognize all the members for their years of service, but this is one knot that will be staying in the dresser drawer for the time being.

Gags

That''s disappointing to hear, OGE. Hickory Run is a great place to camp. They have a permanent Orienteering course established with free maps available. More importantly, they have Boulder Field (which just so happened to flash by on my laptops screen saver as I wrote this). Boulder Field is a bit of a geologic anomaly, but unfortunately, is also an excellent example of how easily vandalism / graffiti can permanently damage nature, as many of the rocks have been "tagged" over the years. See pictures here: http://mysite.verizon.net/res8o5lp/id8.html

If it looks like just a field of rocks - it is. But let loose a bunch of scouts to scramble out into the field for an hour or so, and you will have one tired group of kids. I was even able to impress the 16 year olds. 2 Points for Mother Nature on that one!

Lastly - the Lehigh River is next door - a great step-up in whitewater adventure from canoeing the Delaware, Potomac or Shenandoah. Plus they don''t put a guide in the raft with you (they''re in kayaks) - so you get a good lesson in team building to go with the fun. (We use Whitewater Challengers - very scout friendly, and well run. I was not impressed with what I saw of the other guiding companies on the river). There is also a bike trail that runs for 20 miles or so along the river.

So you get orienteering, biking, rafting and rock scrambling all in one area (and weekend!).

But back to the original point - while camping there with my family 2 years ago, I was driving my Mom back to the hotel where they were staying (Dad''s a little too fragile for tent camping now-a-days), and sure enough, what runs across the road but a large black bear. First time I''ve ever seen one in the wild (after 25+ years of camping in the mid-atlantic region).

So understandably, while you may want to reconsider a trip to Hickory Run this fall, I encourage everyone in the area to keep it high on their trip list, and reconsider visiting once the bear situation "improves".

--Gags

Follow-up article:

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5724633,00.html

Notice the part 1/2 way down - he called rescuers, they told him to stay put (Sunday afternoon) and they''ll pick him up tomorrow.

He ignores their advice, and ends up spending another night in the wilderness - this time with no fire. Perhaps he was disoriented from hunger at this point - or just tired of waiting and thought he knew his way out. But if I had reliable contact with my rescuers, I don''t think I''d be starting a game of hide-and-seek the next day.

Also notice the last line - he''s swearing off cotton altogether. How did we ever survive in the woods before the ''90s?

--Gags

666 is our neighboring troop. I believe it was from a combination of two previous troops - 6 and 66. There is also something about the name of an old local deli (Double 6? 6:00 Deli?), but how a local landmark affects a Council's troop numbering scheme is beyond me.

Naturally, with such a number, it has a church as its CO. (Perhaps to "keep an eye on it"? Conspiracy theories abound...)

Every once in a while, my alma mater - The American University - does something to actually make us alum's consider donating money (maybe someday they'll have a real library, but that's another issue).

AU hosts a public radio station, WAMU, 88.5 FM. On this afternoons "Kojo Nnamdi Show", Kojo had Alvin Townley as a in-studio guest for a 30 minute segment. Mr. Townley recently published a book called "Legacy of Honor: The Values and Influence of America's Eagle Scouts". Mr. Townley spent a year traveling the country interviewing well known Eagle Scouts and asked them to reflect on the impact Scouting and the award has had on their lives.

I only caught the last 5 minutes of the show, but I believe it was a pretty positive, non-political segment. It's already archived on their website here: http://www.wamu.org/programs/kn/07/01/31.php#13032

YIS,

Gags

PS - AU's mascot? An Eagle. I've always wondered if that in some way didn't influence my decision to attend!