Gags

Adding my .02 worth:

Anything made of closed-cell foam will be what you want. Probably the best way to tell the difference between open and closed cell is that you can usually tell right away that the open will absorb water (think hospital bed "egg crate" cushions).

In a camping store, you'll find the plain foam pad ($7+ blue pad from Walmart) and the name brand pads. Since he's younger, I'd stay away from the thermarest "self inflating" pads. One bad stick / rock underneath, or subjecting it to the typical abuse of a 12 yr old, and he'll be sleeping on a deflated balloon.

I still use my black pad bought 15+ years ago - kills my shoulder if I try and sleep on my side, but fine for back and stomach sleeping. Probably about 1/2" thick. I now put it under my inflatable thermarest to avoid another puncture. If you have a problem unrolling it (as Eamonn mentioned), just flip it over so it curls "into" the ground - as soon as you put a bag on top, it will flatten out.

Thermarest makes at least 2 closed cell foam pads - the ridge rest - which is just as it sounds, made of ridges that supposedly trap more air, and the Z-rest, another egg shell package design that folds up like a map, accordian style - designed again with the whole air pocket idea. VERY easy to fold up and attach to your pack, but both models usually approach the $30 mark.

In the end - if he hasn't really been using a pad before, then there's no need to introduce that much "luxury" at this point in time. Just get the cheapest pad you can find (and thickest if available), make sure it's long enough so that his feet won't hang off, and enjoy the winter weekend to yourself! (if you're not joining him, that is).

And if you need really cheap insulation - newspaper also works wonders.

Gags

Maybe I missed this particular memo, but is finding a lost hiker, giving her food and a book, and then leaving her alone (as a thunderstorm rolls in!) standard operating procedure for search and rescue?

I understand using the buddy system, but if a woman is too weak to wave her hands for help, and you know she's been gone for weeks, wouldn't it be wiser for one person to stay with her? Yes, normally splitting up is bad, but common sense (to me, at least) says either to not leave her behind, or have one person stay with her to make sure she's eating and taking fluids ok.

Any thoughts on this aspect of the story?

Thanks,

Gags

I don't have much on my Christmas list this year - it's just too much of a hassle to figure out exactly what I want, and then tell other people what it is I finally decided on. All by the beginning/middle of December. What pressure!

Anyway, I'll go slightly off topic and give a short list of things to get the Scout/Scouter in your life (aka things that make life a little easier/safer in the woods):

1. "Sierra" Cup - Metal cup, usually about 12-16 oz's. I prefer the ones with the handles that fold flat against the cup when not in use. Most will have measuring gradients on the side, and you can place the cup directly on a burner for your own cup of cocoa or hot cider. Ideally, this will take up no room in your pack, b/c item # 2 will slide right inside it. Expected Cost: $4-6

2. Nalgene Bottle - After a one liter soda bottle, the next best kind of canteen. Indestructible, and for the most part, odor free from one beverage/food refill to the next. Mine fits right inside my sierra cup, which saves a ton of space. Expected Cost: $5-8 (whether you go with Nalgene brand or Target/Walmart spin-off). I like to carry both a "hard" bottle and a soft one for my hikes. (see #3)

3. Camelback/Platypus "Hydration" system - yes, that's right - no longer canteens - it's a "system". Which just means you get to suck on a hose to get your water. Just make sure you buy a bladder that comes with a hose. The benefit is you have constant access to your water, and as you drink, the bladder collapses, freeing up space in your pack. Pairing this up with a nalgene eliminates the danger of "all your eggs in one basket". If your bladder breaks or leaks (unlikely, I've had 2 for over 3 years with no problems, but these are Scouts we're talking about), the nalgene will still be safe. Expected Cost: $15-20 for 2 ltr w/hose, $6-10 for bladder only, depending on size.

4. Compass - Even a cheaper one can be a life-saver. Silva Polaris or other similar "starter" type compasses work just the same for a scout as a $50 compass will - they all point North! I've found that one's with a baseplate are easiest to use when following a bearing. Expected Cost: $8-12

5. Whistle - you may even have a few laying around house. I have a small one on a key ring with a tiny LED light, and keep them hooked to my belt with a plastic clip (similar to a dog leash clip, but plastic). Probably weighs less than 1 oz combined, but it's already 1/2 a survival kit.

6. Hiking Poles - There's several posts on this forum praising their benefits. It's a real knee saver for us Scouters who discovered our knee caps may not have all the cartilage they're supposed to! Make sure they're collapsible - otherwise they'll be difficult to pack in the car and/or check onto an airplane. Prices vary on this one - though I'd be wary of poles for $10. Expected Cost: At least $35.

7. Headlamp - Nothing like cooking in the dark asking a friend to constantly "hold this so I can see what I'm doing" to see the merits of this one. I just read that today's LEDs are already 3x brighter than the ones available in 2002, so the need for a krypton/halogen bulb for "long distance" viewing is probably moot. Much easier getting ready for bed with one when you have two hands to search through your pack. Expected Costs: $10-20. ( I wouldn't spend more than $20 unless your scout is good about not losing things - plus you likely won't need the higher end lights anyway.) Some headlamps can be found on sale/clearance for cheaper.

8. Lexan Utensils / "Vittles" Kit - For the lightweight backpacker, the heavy-duty plastic spoon is a must. For the traditionalist, they still make the metal knife-fork-spoon kits that clip together, but I've rarely found a need for a fork (vs just a spoon), and if cutting is necessary, I use a pocket knife. Don't forget to mark the utensils with a name!

9. Last but not least - Rain gear - Waterproof/Breathable jackets are available for less than $50 now (check out Red Ledge or Sierra Designs @ campmor.com). A poncho is always good, but I've yet to find one that didn't rip. Plus a jacket doubles as a good windbreaker that can be worn over fleece if/when temperatures drop. Breathability is not always necessary, especially for younger scouts. As this affects price, it's something to consider. Remember, though - water repellant/resistant is not the same as waterproof.

10. Since I made it to 9, might as well include an even 10 - how about a foam pad? For Webelos just used to summer camping, this item may have been overlooked. If not needed for comfort, it will be needed for warmth on the fall/winter trips. No need for a thermarest at this point. The "Z-Rest" is good and folds up very easily, but costs slightly more. Any camping store should sell a basic closed-cell foam pad, the next step up is usually a Ridge-rest, then the Z-rests, then the combination "air/foam" thermarest mattresses. Expected Costs: $8-35.

Phew. Good thing I didn't try to include links in this post - I'd be here all evening! Hope this helps - Happy Shopping!

YiS,

Gags

GB - So THAT's why I sometimes get the error message when I try to load the "Active Topics" page.

And since we're on the topic, (sort of), here's a few upgrades I'd love to see:

1. Print Function

Especially useful for those longer topics - I'd like to be able to print out the entire thread w/o having to print it page by page (or copy and paste, page by page, into Word. Many magazine/newspaper sites have this option as a "format for printing" button.

2. Display more messages per page

I've seen some sites that give you the option of how many messages you want displayed on each page (similar to some webmail inboxes or search sites - display 25 messages/results per page, 50 msgs/results, etc.). I'm willing to give up the immediate gratification of reading about scouting in exchange for a longer load time, if I don't have to keep clicking through multiple pages of posts.

That being said - I know next to nothing about websites. This may be set up to limit to the number of messages per page b/c the server can only process so many requests at once (or something to that effect). Still, it would be a nice option. :-)

3. Thread spin-offs

Nice feature - but is it possible to add the title of the thread the message was spun off from? That would help give the reader a basic understanding of where the topic came from (yes, I realize that if the title of the old thread was that helpful, the new message probably wouldn't need to be spun-off in the first place!) Or possibly give the title of the NEW thread in the old message? Just something other than "Spun off to new thread, click here for your surprise topic".

That's about it for now. This is a great site, and as other posters have said - I've learned more here than any roundtable or University of Scouting event I've attended [blasphemy alert!] - including Woodbadge. So a big thanks to Terry and all the forum moderators.

YIS,

Gags

OGE,

I have to agree with you - upon further review, it doesn't say it CAN'T be self-funded, which brings up a few issues I may address in a later post.

For some reason, I hadn't thought about suggesting funds be raised from the congregation - sometimes the obvious is to hard to see until it whacks you in the face!

Thanks for the clarification and suggestion,

Gags

To keep this short - what sort of fundraising have you seen for various Eagle projects? One of our current Life scouts is planning on landscaping the church (COR) grounds, and not having seen his project plan yet (another posting all together), I'm skeptical that he'll be able to have 100% of his supplies donated.

I glanced through the Eagle Scout Workbook. It didn't seem to address how much, if any, of a scouts personal funds could/should be used towards the project.

I welcome your thoughts and experiences as to how various projects have been 'funded' in the past.

So much for keeping this short.

Best Regards,

Gags

Follow up question and response:

What percentage of the sales stay with the Council? I hadn't quite thought of that aspect of it - that would explain (somewhat) the higher costs.

ScoutNut - The focus group is handled by Metro Research Services, which I'm assuming was contracted by the Council (I know the contact the company used in their initial phone call to me). All I know of the purpose is what I initially posted - the caller didn't have much more to give me than the one line title, which I vaguely recall as containing the words Scouting, Program, and Popcorn.

I asked the same question of the caller - how was I selected? I told them my troop is actually in another state (my council covers a 3 state area), but the answer they gave implied that they just downloaded all the names and home addresses and sorted by state. Given the location of the focus group meeting, I'm guessing they'll have other meetings for the neighboring jurisdictions (which they did previously for Summer Camp opinions, but I don't think those were official "focus groups"). They also wanted to know if I belonged to a Cub or Boy Scout unit, and position held, which (in addition to the address selection) leads me to believe it was overall a random sampling.

Thanks for the great responses. I had convinced myself it was just going to be all "we gave up on popcorn years ago"!

YIS,

Gags

(Originally posted under "Program" by mistake)

Greetings all,

I've been invited to attend a focus group regarding "Improving the Scouting Program", I think with an emphasis on using Popcorn Sales to help boost Pack/Troop programs.

As a disclaimer - my Troop hasn't participated in the popcorn sale for the last 5 years or so, so I'm hoping the focus group isn't 100% popcorn related.

I'm fairly familiar with the program, and it's pushed hard here in my council. That being said, I'm wondering if anyone out there would be willing to respond with their brief (or not so brief) opinions.

Has the popcorn program helped improve your scouting program?

Is the time spent administering the sales drive worth the rewards (30% profits)?

Does the act of "selling" seem to have an effect on the boys (boosting confidence, encourage public speaking, better "ownership" of troop purchased equipment)?

Have you replaced the popcorn sales with another, more successful product?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

YIS,

Gags

I think we may be mis-interpreting the situation. Darboy55, correct me if I'm wrong, but to summarize:

Troop is working on Hiking and Cycling MB's. (I'll just focus on Cycling to keep it simpler).

Troop plans and organzies trips to satisfy requirements such as "take ride of 25 miles, take ride of 50 miles, etc.".

Troop plans on awarding credit to scouts to count these events as "Troop Activities".

HOWEVER - there's some scouts that are working on the badge, but decide to do the rides either A.) on their own, or B.) with the MBC. In this case, I would NOT count the ride with the MBC as a Troop activity, UNLESS the PATROL organized the separate outing. As flowerchild said, this would of course satisfy the MB req, but working on your own with the MBC shouldn't count as a "troop/patrol" activity.

FYI -

Not that this will make or break anyone's decision to visit our nation's capital, but the American History museum is now closed for the next 2 years. Some of the displays have been moved to the Air & Space museum.

Don't worry - still plenty of other things to see around here!

Thanks,

Gags

PS - I do not know if the Star Spangled Banner (really one of the few exhibits in the AHM worth seeing, IMO) is going to be on display anywhere else - I wouldn't count on it though.

Who knew Zidane would turn out to be a good source for a SM Minute?

Overheard on the radio this morning: "That head butt by Zidane is the most aggression ever shown by the French!" Sorry, couldn't resist...

But seriously, what was (or wasn't?) he thinking?

Gags

Capella,

In the "problem" boys defense, did you realize before camp what the FYC program was, and who it was geared toward?

In my experience, the FYC is basically an "Intro to Scouting" for 11-12 year olds. I've seen this program at 2 different camps (on in VA, one in NJ), and at both places, a 13-15 yr old would be the oldest by far (if not the same age as the counselor). The fact that they made it to the last day of class w/o missing any sessions tells me they either have an extremely high tolerance for boredom, or someone was watching over them the whole time.

If they joined scouting late, I wouldn't bother with the FYC program. Send them off to the rifle range or waterfront for MB work - something that will challenge them. Few SC badges require "pre-requisites" that would have been covered only in the FYC program.

Also - was there any complaints about them from the counselors?

Getting up a late is just a fact of life for some of us. My "over/under" for the amount of Summer Camp breakfasts I've made or missed falls well into the "went hungry" category.

And just to prove that I'm not meaning to sound overly critical, I agree that holding them back from advancement is acceptable - if for no other reason than failing to do their portion of the work around camp. Having them perform an extra service project to show scout spirit hints at adding a requirement. Why not just hold a SM Conference with them, or better yet, have the Board of Review for them, but let the board hold them up for a month until they show improved attitude. That way, there's no "punishment" involved, and the "bad guys" are the BOR, not the SM or ASM who will work with them much more frequently.

Just my thoughts for a slow day at work,

Gags

Lynda,

Not to hijack the thread, but do your scouts use a 9x9 tent with cots on every trip?

Thanks,

Gags

LongHaul / Anarchist,

So it sounds like in this case, Council (NCAC, like yourself Anarchist) has a rider in place to act as an umbrella / liability policy for the volunteers, whereas the $1 paid at rechartering is mostly for the more limited National policy.

Guess it's time to find out exactly how much of my own a__ is covered by both National & Council.

Follow-up question for everyone - if the Camporee loses money, who covers the difference? Can Council cover until the expenses are re-couped @ the next Camporee / event?

Thanks for the clarification,

Gags(This message has been edited by Gags)

We just finished our modestly successful Spring Camporee and are getting ready to submit our finalized budget/balance sheet. Despite the # of questions I have, I'll try and keep this short:

1. What do your districts charge for Camporees? (We charged $10 per attendee)

2. What does your Council charge?

On our budget forms, there's a 10% council support fee (so $1 from every fee goes to Council). There's also a "Liability Recovery" charge of $1 per day (I'm treating this as just $1 / attendee - I can't see paying $3.00 insurance for a Fri - Sun campout). I've asked our Field Director (we've had no DE for the past several months), and he said the $1 was for a rider policy the Council has. He did not know at the time how this differs from the $1 we pay at recharter.

Does anyone else encounter these fees? 20% of our budget is theoretically gone before we even incur any expenses.

Thanks in advance for your input,

Gags

I sure hope not.

350 acres (of which almost 1/3 is 'wetlands') is barely enough room to hold a 500-1000 scout camporee. Aside from the fact that it's probably about 2 hours from Ft AP Hill.

I attended Wood Badge there. The property doesn't give off the most "rugged" appearance (being bordered by I-66 and a busy county road), and that was before the 600 seat dining and the pirate ship and castle and other "Cub World" sites went up.

Useless fact of the day for you - once completed, the dining hall will be the largest eating facility in Prince William County.

All in all - I'm looking forward to seeing the completed product. It has a good training facility, along with a COPE course (haven't used it yet, though), and I'd like to see how the Cub World aspects turn out, as there are (or at least were a few years ago) plans to do the same to my old Scout camp in NJ.

I'm most impressed that the article made the front page (below the fold, but still the front page) of the Washington Post - and it wasn't negative to the Scouts!

Cheers,

Gags

Additional info: http://www.west-point.org/taps/Taps.html

I'm not quite sure what an EO of a KofC Council is. In my limited knowledge of the Knights (dues paying member, but those darn meetings fall on the same nights as RT and Dist Comm Mtg), I haven't heard of a EO position. Was he elected Grand Knight? Is it possible for the Deputy Grand Knight, Past Grand Knight, or maybe even the Pastor of the affiliated Church be the one to sign the Charter?

Or, uh, maybe, you know, just add an extra letter or middle initial to his name to see if Troop Master will accept it as a "new" entry. Darn those fat fingers...

Gags

PS - Otherwise, who says a comm. member can't play the role of an ASM for a year?

Kudu,

Thanks for the idea. I think I know have a presentation to offer up for the next Roundtable.

Gags

Michelle,

If you're spending $90 on boots, you're spending too much. Is he still growing? Don't waste money on high-end boots that will last one season.

I bought insulated boots from Sports Authority that were actually "Totes" brand, like the umbrellas. I think I paid $30-35. Even with one pair of (gasp!)regular cotton socks, I was comfortable in 25 deg weather. I'd even say downright toasty.

As for $90 on a jacket, that seems high as well. A 12 yr old doesn't need any of those breathable fabrics in a winter coat. I think LL Bean has a down winter jacket for only $70 (not water proof, though, but just something to use as a guide). If he has a big lightweight rain coat, then the Bean jacket may not be a bad idea (that layering thing again). Here's some other ideas from Campmor.com: http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=40000000226&storeId=226&categoryId=33331467&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=61294.

And of course, try Marshalls or Burlington Coat Factory.

For boots, there's 2 that look warm. http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=40000000226&storeId=226&categoryId=69720&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=69710

The Ranger Kenai for $29 and the Kamik Nation for $49. Since it's Maine, I don't know what kind of snow depth you'll be in. If snow getting in boots is a problem, then a slightly higher boot like the Kamiks or Sorel Blizzard II ($65) may be needed. Gaiters can solve this problem as well.

I guess that's about it for my rant. Sorry for the long URL's. Why is it that I get much more excited about these posts than whether to use "virtual" patrols on a campout? :-)

--Gags

Question for those of you who help plan District events:

How much detail do you give out before-hand in regards to what the competition events will be?

We have 8 events (trying to do an "Amazing Race" theme). I've sent out an initial flyer listing the events by their generic titles - fire building, first aid, lashing, map & compass, scouting history, team building/problem solving, scavenger hunt, search & rescue.

Some of the complaints have been that this is too vague. At what point does it change from "information" to help them prepare for the events, and become "hand holding/spoon feeding", giving them all the details and taking any mystery out of it?

Thanks,

Gags

You should be able to find insulated/fleece lined nylon snow/ski pants for around $20 in a Sports Authority/Modells/Dicks/[insert your local sporting goods store here].

The ones I found are definitely not name brand, and that's why there were $19.99. Very warm, and it even has useful cargo pockets on the outside. They are also waterproof. I haven't found much need for breathable snowpants. I even went skiing in them last year, and it was fine.

--Gags

Kenk,

I think 2 man Timberlines have plenty of room to two people. The more room, the less incentive to keep an organized pack and sleeping area. And if you have 11/12 year olds saying they don't have enough room with their gear, then I think the larger problem is the kind of gear they're bringing, and their expectations of "personal space". Too much extra space can easily lead to a "party tent" atmosphere.

A 4 man would have plenty of room for 4 young scouts. Even with backpacks if needed. And it still can be split up weight-wise if you need to backpack with it. Although finding a spot big enough to pitch it could pose a problem.

I don't see a boy having a space problem with a 2 man until he's probably closer to 14-15. And then as anarchist mentioned, you can always cover the packs and leave them outside.

Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

--Gags

OGE,

I'm thinking of proposing a night-time Camporee for next Spring. Can you provide any more details?

Thanks,

Gags

PS - I too, was wondering what the EPA had to do with Insomnia!

Res,

I'd be a little wary. I bought a knife at a dollar store a few years ago for (what else?) a buck or two. It had the half straight / half serrated edge for cutting rope. It's cr*p. (AND it's not Scottish, either.) There's too much give/wobble in the blade, and while it's sharp, it never feels safe the few times I've used it. (I'm too cheap to go spend $20 on a something I'll only use twice a year). So that being said, 12 bucks isn't a bad bargain for 12 knives. I'd say go ahead and order them, but try them out for yourself, and decide from there. I would think a poorly made knife is just as dangerous (if not more so) than a dull one. If it's for the leaders, I think it would make a nice token gesture. They _should_ be smart enough to use it properly.

And I think I've just talked myself into ordering a pack and possibly giving them out to the first place patrol @ the Fall Camporee.

--Gags