Gags

Canoeing down the Wading River is a great weekend trip, and has filled up a good portion of my Scouting memories. Especially jumping off Godfrey Bridge (when the ranger wasn't watching). The river requires enough maneuvering to help teach younger scouts the importance of working together to steer and paddle. The current is deceptively strong for such a narrow river. If your lucky, and the rainfall has been high, the canoeing places may also open up the "northern section" of the river. Still requires the requisite turns around (and under) tree branches, but it's a great addition to an otherwise short trip.

Being a transplanted New Jerseyan also living in VA, it's been a long 3 years since I last camped in Wharton.

And I thought Mother Leeds kept the poor fella' in the cellar, not under the stairs? (If I'm wrong, then maybe we should claim Harry Potter stole the story line!)

Missing the cedar-stained waters,

--Gags

Bob mentioned the two working ends in his post above.

Please look here: http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=ba

It should link to the BSA National site, under the headings "Use of Organization Identity and Program Symbols: Trademark & Signature Artwork".

It provides high-quality images for publishing, printing, etc. Take a look at the 2nd Class badge (http://media.scouting.org/identity/CD/PC/BoyScouts/SecondClass4.pcx).

Just to the side of the rope hanging down, you see a bump or protrusion on the right. I believe this is the missing "working end" of the rope.

Plus it clearly shows the double strands of rope at the front of the knot. If this was a larks head, I believe that in order to have two strands in the front, you'd have to end up with 4 strands hanging down (essentially a double loop on the bottom).

Can we get any "geekier" on this Scouting stuff? :-)

--Gags

Maybe this is too simple a solution in my mind, but....

You said there were 18 months missing from the Honor Roll.

Dave would have been in that time period.

Why not just tell him the truth? "Dave, I was helping hang up some new names on our Honor Roll, and noticed that we were missing not only your name, but several other names from that same time period. Do you know of anyone else who earned Eagle with you?"

Pretty simple question. You're not prying into personal business or "snooping to national" behind his back (which I think may have been the conclusion of a few posters here). You're not singling him out, b/c it's not only his name that's missing. And most important, you're not lying about your intentions!

Sure, everybody gets the "ooh, a mystery to solve" tingle over stories like this. But from my interpretation (sp?), your genuine interest is to make sure his name gets added, and not look for a reason to jump up yell "LIAR, LIAR!" in a crowded halloween party. (How's that for vague Supreme Court references?)

People sometimes refer to "Occums Razor" (again, spelling?), a thereom which (I think)says in abscence of other evidence, the simplest reason/explanation is usually the correct one.

Hope you have a great party,

Gags

I think we need to re-read the post again.

The "problem" isn't whether they fight but the fact that the younger one depends on the older one too much.

There's so many variables on this situation that would affect any suggestion we can offer:

Does the younger brother (YB)have friends outside the home? Not everybody goes to school w/ their next door neighbors, if he happens to have any his age in the area.

Does the older brother (OB) enjoy the role his YB puts him in?

Is the mother (Mom):-) even aware of these roles?

It's a fine line between pushing the boy towards independence and self-reliance and pushing the boy away from an otherwise great program.

I see the same thing happening w/ my nephews (8 & 6). The youngest is quick to say "I can't do it, can Matthew do it for me?" Matt is quick to do it b/c he doesn't think Jason can do it himself (often happens while playing video games - go figure). It can be frustrating to watch when you realize how much bigger the learning curve is going to be for the younger one in the long run if the behavior continues.

My 2 cents on child psychology.

--Gags

I've heard using web straps instead of rope minimizes/eliminates the damage. Any experience with this? As much as I love my hiking poles, I don't think they'd do very well as hammock poles! I'm looking into a Hennesy myself for the near future.

Thanks,

Gags

OGE -

You should have a good trip this time - there's always been more sightings of the ol' JD during times of military conflicts.

One of many troop traditions has been a "family" canoe trip down the Wading River, also in the Pine Barrens. Another tradition was a side trip to Atlantic City later that evening, but that's a story for another thread. :-)

Good luck keeping the sand out of your tents!

--Gags

In the meantime, check out the convertible pants from Galyans. They make a good looking dark/forest green that's 100% nylon. And important for the Scouts (and myself), the shorts actually come down to the top of the knees. Web belt included - I believe the belt loops would easily accomodate the scout belt. Price was $25. If you're a "member" (free discount card) I believe you get 10% off of all Galyans brand purchases.

OGE - great idea on the "lengthening" pants legs!

--Gags

(This message has been edited by Gags)

Looks like a great site. Shouldn't this post be under "Camping & High Adventure", though?

--Gags(This message has been edited by Gags)

Dozer,

Although your idea is far more useful, in a pince you can also sell them on Ebay. THey go for about a quarter or so a ball. I think dog shelters use them alot to as cheap toys.

You may want to make a "spare" set of the alphabet just in case one rolls off into the woods.

--Gags

LOL!!! Oh you silly Aussies.... Remember Oz, the snow is "frozen" water. Liquid "waste" that's "heated" water (to a temp of 98.6) does a good job melting snow. If you happen to be stuck with a long name, just drink plenty of fluids before hand. :-)

And yes, the Scouts here use the term "Klondike" for their Winter camporees in reference to the Klondike region of Canada - most likely b/c of the gold rush. Just don't ask the Scouts where the term comes from, they'll probably say something like "b/c it's as cold as a Klondike Bar!" (ice cream treat coated in chocolate here in the States).

Cheers,

Gags (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Adding my 2 cents...

I never attempted Rifle MB in the 80's b/c of both the cost and the difficulty. I didn't want to spend more than one session on a badge, nor pay the .05 per bullet, or whatever they were telling us it cost.

For Archery, I was lucky enough to know that the partial didn't expire (and lucky enough to be able to find that partially filled in blue card year after year). Still took me 3 or 4 years to earn it.

2 years ago, on my first trip to Goshen SR, (National Capital Area Council's camp outside Lexington, VA), I had 2 of my 13 year old scouts tell me they qualified for the shooting portion of Rifle on Tuesday afternoon. They showed me their targets - I was amazed at the accuracy. Then they told me they had scopes on the rifles. "Oh, you mean one of those tube and ball sights instead of the V-notches?" I asked. "No - we mean scopes with lenses and crosshairs."

Why does a .22 rifle need a scope? Why not just walk up to the target with a pencil and poke holes in it? You'd get the same accuracy.

This year @ Goshen, I finally got to use a rifle with a scope on it (they had taken them off previous years for the open shoots). During SM/SPL shooting competition, they gave us 7 shots, and counted the best 5. 6 out of 7 bulls-eyes later, I'm walking away with target in hand, wondering if it's even worth keeping the target. This struck me as odd - normally I'd want to frame something that good! (I only shoot once a year @ SC) But like a previous poster mentioned - it was almost too easy.

This may be blasphemous, but maybe the new requirements for Basketry make that badge harder to earn than Rifle?

--Gags

One Hour -

I just picked up their Glacier on special. Their "large" is only 4300 cu. in. I'm worried that it won't be large enough for a weekend or longer trip. As SM, I find myself bring a bit more of everything (extra water, extra flashlight). As my current pack is a Camp Trails McKinley (I think - it's 15 yrs old), this will be my first internal frame pack.

What pack did you use before this one? I find it hard comparing cu. inches between internal and external frames since the externals appear easier to attach the pads and tent to the bottom part of the frame. I think the McKinley is 3500 cu. in., and I wonder if I should have just gone with a 5,000 cu. in. pack.

Great idea on the fanny pack. The shoulder straps worked well? They look awfully skinny on mine! I guess they held up to the 65 lbs? I hope that amount includes water weight!

Cheers,

Gags

Does anybody have any background information on this ban?

I know they're dangerous even with the best of supervision and training. Can anyone point me in the direction of some facts regarding injuries/deaths due to ATV's?

I've had a scout ask me about ATV's several times, and while he respects the answer of "b/c the G2SS says so", having a little more data to back up this reasoning would be a great help.

Cheers,

--Gags

Why is the BSA allowed to operate at an 8:1 ratio, while other charters must operate at 6:1? If 6 is the standard set due to safety (amongst I'm sure other factors), why increase it to 8 for the BSA?

Not trying to beat a dead horse, but Marinelaw's posting do have me curious.

Regards,

--Gags

Two Words: Hiking Poles.

This message has been posted per request of Gags' knees.

See you on the trail,

--Gags

>

Proud Eagle,

I'm quite sure he was saying the only 50% may attend, period. If there were more than 50% elected, we would have to determine who would go by vote count.

While I think we have the largest lodge in the country, the Chapter area covers mostly urban neighborhoods and is poorly represented. I'm pretty certain that the location usually used does not limit the ordeal size, b/c I doubt they initiate more than 30 members per year. They may have 2 ordeals, but nothing was mentioned about "waiting till next fall".

I think you've provided the exact answer I was looking for - especially the 2002 printing. I would bet that earlier printings did not have the same procedures, in particular the "all scouts on 50% of ballots are elected". If you have any inclination to research further, do you know with what printing this new election procedure was implemented?

Thank you again for the detailed answer - this is a great help and I'm relieved that all the boys who want to join will now be able to.

Cheers,

--Gags

Thank you all for the replies, but does anybody have access to the Unit Elections Guide that could point to a page #? If not, I'll have to go the "long" way and track down the password to download it from the website.

New Question: As somebody mentioned, can a lodge rule supercede a National OA rule as to how many can attend ordeal?

Thanks again,

--Gags

Dear List,

I know this is going to be a repeat of a topic discussed several times, but the few answers I found do not quote any chapter and verse.

I have a very small troop - 4 active boys (out of 5 on the charter). They are all eligible for OA, and I'm planning on having the election this coming Thursday. My CC, who's the OA Vice-Chief Advisor (think I have that title right) is not aware of the recent election changes. Neither is our Chapter Advisor (great guy, but I think he's still using the procedures from 1963).

My understanding is - to be elected, you need to be selected on 50% of the ballots. If all 4 boys (or 3, one said he wants to wait until next year - decision always subject to change, of course) vote for each other (or any other combination that results in each boy being on 50%, or 2, of the ballots), then ALL elected go in, right?

I was told the Chapt. Adv. said that a max. of 50% of the ELEGIBLE Scouts can be sent to ordeal - so if all are elected, we'd have to decide which 2 (50% of the 4) get to go this time around.

Can someone please quote me a reference in the Units and Elections Guide (along with a version # or print date) that can help set the record straight?

I'm not looking to prove them wrong out of spite, just want to make sure all the boys that want membership if they so choose get that opportunity. And a little education now and then never hurt anybody, either. :-)

Thanks,

Gags

< Just make certain everything is steaked out very well and it will hold up for most weather. >

Is this one of those new "Atkins" tarps? I've heard about those...

This may be a simplistic observation, and I don't have a card in front of me, but how would anyone know which version of the requirements were completed? IIRC, there's no blank on the blue cards for "enter printing date of MB book used here:".

Just a thought,

--Gags

Heard about it a few months ago.

Just saw the new "coil bound" version in the catalog.

Has anyone looked through it? It's a revision, correct? Was anyone on the list involved in the revision - what the discussions focused on as to what to drop and what to add.

And of course - what do we think? I hope they did a better job on the Fieldbook then on the last Handbook (showing my bias here a little). Haven't looked at the new Fieldbook myself yet.

Cheers,

--Gags

ManyIrons,

I believe you also summed it up pretty succinctly. I would offer that the majority of us (70%+ maybe?)that prefer to go by our first names do not have boys in the troop. This also ties in with AndrewCanoe's observation, that the first name only crowd is usually 35 and under.

12+ years from now, when, God willing, I have a son who will join, I probably will switch over to the Mr. G "title". Well, that would probably happen before he's in Scouts, but you get the point.

If fate allows it, and I'm still with the same troop at that time, well, maybe I'll just have to make a decision as to which new batch of Scouts will know me as Mr. G. I'll cross that bridge when I come it.

Maybe it's time to start another thread and discuss whether being on a first name basis with the boys leads to less respect being shown to leaders or does not matter.

Cheers,

--Gags

So I just spent a 1/2 hour typing up a manifesto of a reply, click on a link in an email to check out a picture of the columbia memorial plaque on the Mars Spirit lander, and when I click "back", my post is gone. a;sldkjfasldfjljaf. Sorry, that's what happens I bang my head against the keyboard. Here's the link that was the culprit, btw:

Anyway, to summarize the post I'm not going to try and retype:

Like Chippewa, I'm younger than all the parents in my troop. When I became SM 2 years ago at the "young" age of 28, I was then single (now married) and child-free (still am, as far as I know :-) ). I prefer to just be called Chris, for I guess a couple reasons.

1. My first SM was also much younger than any parent, and he used his first name. AND he was a great SM.

2. My father's called Mr. Gagliano, and while my knees may feel as old as he is, the rest of me doesn't (yet). That and I'm not quite sure I deserve to be called "Mr." yet (except Mr. Forgetful, and Mr. Never-on-Time).

3. Like another poster mentioned, I like to think that it allows the scouts to relax a little more around me. They may have relaxed a bit too much, but that's another topic altogether.

All the scouts have been good about addressing the other parents, ASM and CC as Mr./Mrs. X. I still get uncomfortable calling my CC Paul instead of Mr. X____. Nothing my parents drilled into me, just what was always expected as he's much older than me (or is it older than I?). I'll usually call one of the ASM's by Mr. X___, out of both respect and I guess b/c I don't know him all that well.

In my old troop, where I still sometimes help out, I call the parents that I knew as a Scout who've remained active as Mr. ____, although they've said "I think you can just call me Barry now", which I try to do, but it doesn't come natural. What can I say, I'm resistant to change.

My wife (or should it be the woman to whom I'm married) is the same way. Her neighbors have always been Mr. & Mrs. M____ to her(why do people avoid using last names on this board anyway, do we do this in casual conversation? Are we afraid of lawsuits or copyright infringement?! Like anybody would know who we're talking about?). Her younger sister (by 7 years) however, refers to them as Mike and Cheryl, which forces my wife to stop and remember who it is her sister is talking about! Sign of the times, I guess.

Oh yeah - put me in the category of not being a big fan of being called Mr. Chris. Like someone pointed out, it sounds like pre-school, although I've never even heard it used before summer camp 2 years ago. This past year, as provisional SM, boys from another Troop started using it, which is what they use with some of their leaders. I appreciate the effort at showing the extra respect, but wouldn't it make sense to just use my last name?

And to answer the original question, yes, just like it's always better to err on the side of being too dressed up for a party than too casual, you can't really go wrong by starting off with a Mr./Mrs. when you meet or introduce someone.

There you have it - a 10 paragraph "summary". And I'm supposed to be the quiet type. And what to call the in-laws? Still struggling with that one...

--Gags

OGE,

That's an excellent suggestion regarding using only the words that I use. I'm going to try that during the meeting tonite.

EDad,

I'm not offended, and the only thing that hurts is the frustration of repeatedly telling them to watch their language, that it doesn't belong in Scouts, etc. etc.

[[Would these scouts behave like this in front of their mother?]]

One of them did on the backpacker. He had gotten out of his sleeping bag (beautiful night, so no tents) to go visit a tree, and I guess was still a little dazed, but suddenly began [complaining]about not being able to find his sleeping bag, and "where the h[eck] is my d[arn] sweater" "someone took my f***ng bag!". Mom was now awake 15 feet away from him, and while in my bag, I hadn't gone to sleep yet, so I decided to see how she handled it. It was really quite comical (from an observers point of view), being that I knew he was sitting on his bag, and the sweater was probably wherever he had strewn it on the ground. I guess Mom chose to ignore the chosen words because he was confused, and used the "it's all right, just look around you" soothing mother voice to get him back in bed. But confused or not, I could wake up from a 3 year coma and still know not to even say "where the hell am I?" if my mother was around!

[[but when you start to understand how making the wrong choices leads to bad habits. Well then you voluntarily start to WANT to change.]] Can you clarify this a little for me? What bad habit would result out of using bad language? I'm in agreement, just blanking on good examples to use.

[You don't have to be around such behavor, maybe they need that too.] That's an excellent point. It could be a good wake-up call for them to realize that I don't HAVE to be their SM.

Mark - I may try the "cuss cup" idea. I'd just be worried that enforcement of that would take up 1/2 the meeting. But I agree with the hell and damn - as much as I don't like to hear it, I need to fight bigger fires first, like other swearing, slapping, and basic levels of respect towards each other.

Thanks for all the responses.

--Gags