Gags

Scoutfish - As "fate" would have it, I just read an interesting article as to the source of the "under God" addition to the Pledge. Seems it was taken from Lincoln's Gettysburg Address: http://www.firstthings.com/article/2010/07/god-and-gettysburg

YiS,

Gags

"Personnally, I don't give a rat's ass if the service doesn't satisfy some Catholic, Shiite, Methodist or a Rabbinical Jew. So what? That is not the purpose - they need to get over it."

Acco - There's nothing to "get over". My comment, which I believe you were responding to, was trying to correct the impression that was given that Catholicism "rejects" (Beavah's original term) using a Scouts Own (SO). By saying "they need to get over it", you imply that there's a group of believers somewhere lobbying against the use of a SO (well, maybe that _is_ what we're trying to do here?) b/c it doesn't satisfy their requirements for worship.

Which is why I tried to suggest that maybe a SO should be less of a worship opportunity, and more of a teaching opportunity - not about the particulars of other faiths, nor necessarily how the faiths have some commonality, but, as a way to help each Scout live the Oath and Law. Isn't that the purpose of a SM Minute? Should we try to use the SO then as an extended SM Minute?

(Haven't yet read the Atlanta links John posted - will try to reply to that later.

YiS,

Gags

This was already clarified, but wanted to add my two cents. When Beavah stated in the original post that "our generic services are rejected by Catholics, LDS, Muslims, and many protestant denominations", it's not that a Scouts Own goes against Catholic teaching, but just that a Scouts Own does not satisfy the obligation to attend Mass on a weekly basis.

Another comment got me thinking - "He mixed OT, NT, Koran, Bhagavad-Gita (sp?), and assorted other sacred documents trying to claim that God is the same everywhere. It's just not so." Perhaps we need to stop thinking about Scouts Own as less a "worship" service, and more as an opportunity to show Scouts that religion (dare I say "all" religion?), or maybe just using the term spirituality (minus the "new age" associations) is the way humanity searches for 'The Truth' - the questions such as Why are we here? What does it take to lead a good life? What IS a good life? What does God want from us? and even Is there a God? I think each of the above mentioned "Great Books" (OT, NT, Koran, Bhagavad Gita) attempts to answer many of those questions. I wouldn't claim that God is the same everywhere, but I am beginning to convince myself that the search for God (and/or Truth) is.

YiS,

Gags

Good afternoon,

My troop will be going Camp Marriott @ Goshen Scout Reservation next week. This will be the first time they've done patrol style cooking at summer camp. I've done "heater stack" (prepared by staff, served in site) there, but never patrol cooking. Any tips as to what equipment they should bring? Since I'm not going, I haven't been that involved in the planning, but I don't believe a clear list has been issued by council listing actual cooking equipment (except for the request to bring empty egg cartons to transport the eggs back to the site).

YiS,

Gags

Sorry - couldn't resist, but:

"That's why it is spherical...and a thermometer is mounted at the precise center of the interior of the sphere. They are usually painted black with a special paint that absorbs radiant energy very well. I saw one that had to be coated with carbon black."

So if the thermometer is in the middle of a sphere painted black - how do you read the temperature? Or is this one of those philosophy / quantum physics tricks - theoretically it is both hot AND cold out? (IIRC, the actual "experiment" was that the cat was both alive AND dead inside a closed box). Is this another one of those "global warming" propaganda tools?

Currently enjoying the 106 F Heat Index right now in sunny Northern VA, and that's only with a 35% humidity. (Glad I'm not still home - 15 miles away it's a Heat Index of 111.) Numerous sightings of large marble and bronze statues cooling off in the Tidal Basin have been reported by tourists, but National Park Service personnel insist it's hallucinations brought on by sun exposure and their failure to stand on the right when using Metro's escalators.

Can you set up a pinewood derby track? That should definitely attract boys, and keep them occupied while parents get the "heavy sell".

PB - Is this a 360 review of yourself, your troop, or for you to conduct on others? That may help shape some of the answers.

My company utilizes a 360 review for our annual assessments, and includes input from our clients as well. We have a set of "core values" and a additional skill-based competencies that are the same for everyone. What's different is the expectations to perfom at each level. Junior staff may need to show a "writing" competency by contributing research to a deliverable, while Sr. staff would be evaluated on their "writing" ability to be the main author for whole deliverable. But it's the same basic skills for everyone.

To keep it simple, why not just use the Scout Law, or (even better? almost as good?) the 8 Methods (Patrol Method, Advancement, Adult Association, etc.)and ask how well you (or the program, or the person being evaluated) use those methods throughout the year.

Hope this helps.

YiS,

Gags

Prairie,

I haven't heard of anything heading down that way from DC. Try calling the NCAC HQ (301-530-9360) - they may be organizing a bus trip, but I haven't heard anything about it if they have. I believe they have a "Fairfax Connector" bus that runs down to Woodbridge, but that may only run during rush hour, which would be the opposite direction you want, and still leave you at least an hour short of AP Hill.

I would consider just renting a car at National Airport for the day, or look into joining the "Zip Car" program (car rentals for city folks - not sure what the cost is). If you rent at National, make sure you tell them you didn't fly in that morning - they use to charge an extra "airport usage" fee.

You may be able to find an Amtrak train heading south to Fredericksburg, but I'm not sure what additional options are available from there, either.

Best of luck,

Gags

Thanks JH. I guess what I'm trying to determine is if anyone is aware of CO's that account for donations to their troops on their own (CO's) books or respective tax returns. Subsequently, if the CO tracks it for receipt purposes, can it still be deposited into the Troop's account?

YiS,

Gags

Received an interesting question from our COR after I had made a request for our CO's EIN (employee ID #) for a grant application - if the CO "owns" the troop (I'm using that as an all encompassing term - I'm aware of the multiple threads reguarding who owns the equipment, etc.) how are donations accounted for?

My intial explanation to try to explain why the troop doesn't have an EIN: "While Scouting owns the program material, its the CO that really owns the troop. Thus, contributions given directly to troops are actually considered to have been given to the CO." I phrased it this way b/c my understanding is that this is how people can justify donations as tax deductible. If I'm off base in this assumption, please let me know.

Her response: "Also, in terms of tax reporting...[sic] does [the church] report donations given to the scout troop then? If so, I don't think we've ever asked the troop or pack for a reporting."

How have other troops / packs handled donations? If a donor gives $500 directly to the troop, does that money get reported somewhere? It would go into the troop bank account, but that's usually the end of the paper trail. I'm not familiar with IRS 990's or other non-profit accounting standards to understand if this should be reported, and by whom. (This would probably account for the seemingly official document I've found on council websites saying that Troops cannot solicit donations, as posted here: http://www.mac-bsa.org/Post/sections/28/Files/FundraisingFAQs-UnitTaxStatus.pdf )

Thanks for any input on this matter,

Gags

Also to clarify - I always understood this to be part of the "urban legends" category - youth protection training is basically about not having any one-on-one contact with youth. Two deep leadership is more of a G2SS (Guide to Safe Scouting) requirement. Related, yes, but understandable that it would not come up in a discussion of preventing child abuse. Is a good way to prevent abuse having 2 adults always present? Yes, but the 2 adult rule only applies to outings - you can still have a troop meeting with just one (or none!) adults present.

-Gags

I think what you've laid out is good for areas where there is expected use by the public. IIRC, unless it's in bold type, the G2SS is a "guide", and not requirements. You seem to already have a good idea of what areas will be for which ability levels - you can always stick a cone or two along the shoreline in case one rock looks like another. But like Beavah mentioned - you know your kids best - I would think a non-swimmer would be afraid to go out much past waist deep water - but maybe you have that one daredevil who leaps before he thinks, and is likely to forget he's a buoyant as a stone?

And as was also mentioned - placing a rope in the water in a public area can be an invitation for it to be pulled on, tugged, used for flotation, etc. (How many times do the lifeguards at the pool blow to whistle to get people off the ropes?) You may spend more time "guarding" the rope in case it gets moved or wrapped around another swimmer (who wasn't expecting a rope in the middle of a stream) than watching the kids the rope is supposed to protect.

And I just wanted to add a "kudos" for finding a good ol' swimming hole to use - it's places like that that make for memorable trips. You're profile says mid-atlantic - where abouts will you be?

YiS,

Gags

fairly common in most sporting goods stores are hiking shoes w/ waterproof/breathable liners. I havd a pair of Merrels (although they fell apart very quickly, it seems like they have a good return policy, and others I know have had no problems.) They're usually in the $60 (on sale) - $99 range.

Rumour has it that he had whittled the choices down to either a fleur-de-lis or frog legs.

Yet another momentous decision point in the timeline of history that too often goes unnoticed by the ungrateful masses.

:-)

Thanks to everyone for the replies. I think SSScout has convinced me to go with the 3 pole system - as the whole camporee will be a timed event, the less time spent doing a "reset" to get the tubes / tires in the right order, the better.

I'm still considering the tires, may need to stop by a junk yard or tire place and check on availability - I'm thinking motorcycle tires may work best - actually drove by 3 that were on the curb, but didn't grab them as I was worried about how to keep everything uniform (why does the Panther patrol get to carry the training wheels while the Cobra patrol has to carry this monster truck tire?).

The backup plan will be pool tubes - a trip to the dollar store is in my future.

Thanks again,

Gags

Our Fall Camporee is an "Amazing Race" theme, and I came across the following "brain teaser" - ideal for a "Survivor" immunity challenge, but just as good for my purposes. It's called "The Tower of Hanoi", description here: http://www.shurdington.org/Downloads/TowerOfHanoiPuzzle.pdf

Side note - take some time to look through their main downloads page - a wealth of good information (and good diagrams!) to be found - http://www.shurdington.org/downloads.htm.

Anyway, I'm looking for some thoughts as to how to construct this on a larger scale for use during a camporee event. I was thinking rebar for the stake, but what to make the discs out of? Plywood? I'd say frisbees, but who has that many laying around to drill holes through?

Thoughts / Suggestions are welcome.

YiS,

Gags

Kudu - welcome back! (or maybe I just haven't been checking the boards enough recently?)

Regarding the ppt slides - it wasn't readily apparent to me at first - but there are "speakers notes" at the bottom of each page - you may need to expand the area at the bottom of the page to see it all. They only add a little more information than just the bulleted slides, but they may be helpful to see (looks like the deck creator got tired of typing notes 1/2 way through - they only repeat the bullet points after a while). If you're not used to powerpoint, there is also an option to print just the slides, and another to print the slides with the speakers notes.

I'll second the thumbs up for the GBB info - I don't think Kudu has summarized it like that previously (using the 3 points).

And getting back to the OP's request - I think some of the pushback you're encountering in the replies here is b/c it's unclear if you're trying offer an alternative to TLT, or it's in addition to TLT or the council based training (JLT? Brownsea? Impeesa? all of the above?) If it's just for OA - don't they already offer leadership courses, or is it targeted more to Chapter Chiefs and the rest of the leadership team?

YiS,

Gags(This message has been edited by Gags)

I think an area an FAQ would be most helpful in would be a listing of "Scouting Myths" or "Urban Legends". A thread on the topic has popped up every now and then, usually with the same general questions (sheath knives, patrol camping, "blue card" issuances, etc.)

Another option is to create "sticky posts" that always show up at the top of dicussion lists, containing either information for new list members, or previously closed discussions that the moderators / members have found the most helpful.

Firescouter,

Yes - Reqs 1A & B are often done together. Usually with scouting requirements, when it say "make a written plan" (love the fact that they thought it necessary to clarify "written"!), it is not necessary to carry out the plan, unless it says so specifically (using the plan you created in Req. X, hike at least x miles etc. etc.).

If you are serious about converting coordinates to an actual location on a topographic map (I'm assuming you'll be using the standard USGS 1:24,000 scale map that's most common), it's fairly straight forward to find the GENERAL location of the coordinates. If you are going to actually plot the exact spot, you'll need a mapping ruler like the one shown below - each ruler is specific to the scale of the map (1:10,000, 1:24,000, etc.).

I don't want to drown you in details, just wanted to make you aware before you headed out into the woods (or urban jungle, as the case may be) looking for a needle in a haystack.

http://www.maptools.com/products/LatLonRulers.html

--Gags

Dale,

Here's what I remember from my experiences:

Rules:

1. Each member of the patrol must pass through the web.

2. You may only use a "hole" one time.

3. If the web moves (or use a bell / chime tied to the middle)or if the bell "rings", everyone starts over.

4. Once you're on the other side, you can't go back around and help someone through.

5. If the holes aren't big enough - you may allow them to intentionally "stretch" the hole, provided it doesn't ring the bell.

Set-up

1. Usually between two trees. Never seen this done indoors, so not sure how the tie-offs would work (maybe between 2 tripods?).

2. Be sure to make a few holes low enough to step through on your own, and to cover any "larger" kids you may have.

What they eventually figure out:

1. Having Energetic Eddie jump through the big hole on the bottom as soon as you say go means the patrol now has to figure out how to get Large Larry through the only remaining hole 4 ft off the ground.

2. Even if they send Large Larry through the one on the bottom, they may still need to realize that the last person through will need a lower hole as well.

3. As always with group events - one person directing movement is usually needed.

Parachute cord will probably work best - but others may have had success with other rope types as well. You really don't need plans - just eyeball it as you go - it should be quickly apparent during set-up if you need to make the holes bigger or smaller. As for timing the event - if you don't want it to be a "competition" between the patrols, just see who can improve their time the most, (in seconds or % - like they do on Biggest Loser on TV) - that way it's an internal challenge vs. direct competition.

Let us know how it goes.

FYI - the Spider Web description in the syllabus shown in the link above is on pg 168 of the pdf file.

YiS,

Gags

(This message has been edited by Gags)

Water knot (I find it more secure than a square knot) and also the Sheepshank. Variation of the Sheepshank is the trumpet knot. Looks almost identical, but tied slightly different ways, and is not always mentioned in knot books. Other favorite is the thief knot - never had the need to use that one though - mostly replaced by the "masterlock" knot in locker rooms across the country. :-)

Thought's on the shoe lace issue - for some reason, it wasn't until a few years ago that I thought of tying your shoes as being similar to the square knot. I now realize that this is also the problem we have in teaching how to tie a square knot. Assuming we start teaching them at age 11, they've had 5+ years of tying a granny knot - it's a hard habit to break. My theory is that we all tend to be left or right hand dominant - for me, I usually start left over right. Then, when I make the "loops", I again start with the left hand, and go left over right and VOILA! Granny knot! (But the shoes are still tied, and off we go.)

Other benefit to tying a square knot for your shoes - the loops fall neatly across the shoe, rather than diagonal or up and down, making a much more uniform appearance. (Just in case you need more help in that job interview than just having "Eagle Scout" on the application).

I was just thinking about knots, or actually more the need for lashings in general as a scout skill - may have to spin this thought off to a new thread.

--Gags

Here's a joke I came across the other day (made "Scout" friendly). It shouldn't take much in the way of props or additional wording to make it an effective skit:

Red Riding Hood was on her way to her grandmother's place when she saw a Big Bad Wolf crouched down behind a log [or behind the podium, behind the campfire, behind the bench, etc.]. "My what big eyes you have," said Red Riding Hood. The wolf runs away...

A little further down the road Red Riding Hood sees the wolf crouched behind a tree. "My, what big ears you have," said Red Riding Hood. Again, the wolf runs away.

Little Red Riding Hood was getting a little suspicious by this time but continued on her way to grandmas. About 2 miles down the road she sees the wolf again, this time he is squatting behind a road sign. "My what big teeth you have," said Red Riding Hood.

With that the wolf jumps up and screams, "WILL YOU [bug] OFF? I'M TRYING TO TAKE A [dump]!"

--Gags

One of the first books I read at probably the same age was "Guadacanal Diary" - not sure if it was the original or a kids version - probably about 150-200 pages. As it's one of the more famous stories from the war, it should be in the local library, if not his school library.

As an alternate topic, and depending on his reading level - Killer Angels (Gettysburg / Jeff [Mike?] Shaara)is a quick moving book that adds dialogue (sp?) to the storyline and can help bring a story to life for a young boy.

What I would stay away from is the "WWII in HD" series that just came out. Much too graphic for a 9 year old - it's "refreshing" (poor word choice, but best I could do) to have a show that's not just the same war film clips edited together - this one does a pretty good job of showing the aftermath in places like Iwo Jima and Okinawa - as in burnt bodies, random limbs, etc. Just thought I'd give you a heads up in case it pops up on the tv guide.

I hope your son develops as much a love for history as I have. My wife doesn't appreciate it quite so much - there's not much room on the bookshelf for things like pictures. I always thought shelves were for books? If I could only learn to read them faster than I buy them. [Damn you Barnes & Noble discount section!]

YiS,

Gags

not worth spinning off into a new topic -

Eamonn - does the award itself change with the monarch? Is it a different emblem for the Queen's Scout vs. a King's Scout award? (I think I have the terminology right).

Cheers,

Gags

From what little I've read, there was an article from a Grand Junction newspaper that mentioned an apparent "snafu" at the White House level that was going to be corrected immediately. Sites that linked to that article (or maybe was quoted in the original article - not sure) included a quote saying "the Preseident refused to add his signature". I have my doubts on the last part - as much as I'm against Pres. Obama and his policies, I doubt Mr. Community Organizer would be looking to alienate large swathes of the general public over something like a congratulatory certificate.

I hate to say this, but I'm giving the President a little leeway on this on - coming into office and trying to hit the ground running (GWoT, recession, stimulus, health care, etc.) probably pushed "add automatic signature to BSA Eagle Certificates" down towards the bottom of the list. Particularly in the White House offices (and with a different party from his predecessor), there is likely a large amount of turnover in WH staff. Unless I see more solid information, I'd put this in the "soon to be corrected" column.

Sure there may be people who don't like which President "signed" their certificate, but even with recent Bush and Obama hatred, was it that different from the feelings of those who have Nixon on their certificates? I would hope the BSA doesn't cave in to the perceived pressure and remove the Presidents signature in an attempt to "please everybody". We can't have it both ways and choose who the Honorary President is, and then choose whether we want his (or her!) signature on our certificates. (Oops - "Yes we can" - see 3rd paragraph in pasted material below).

OK - looked into this a little further - found the following October '09 reply to a message posted at http://www.boyandgirlscouts.com/recognition/clarifying-president-obamas-policy-regard-boy-scouts-of-america/. The post is from Mike Walton (aka Settummanque), whom some of you may recognize (and probably know) from the Scouts-L listserv and other sites:

Settummanque (Mike Walton) Says:

7 October 2009 at 10:04 am.

Heres the information about the Eagle Scout certificates:

The question/concern was: This is more of a question then innovation. Several of my volunteers has asked why the Eagle Certificates has GW Bush as the Honorary President and not President Obamaa signature. Is there an answer that I can give them?

Its a printing issue more than anything else. The White House has to authorize the usage of the Presidents signature on various BSA certificates. As of today (7 October 09), the printing has not been approved.

As with the issue with those not wanting an Eagle Scout certificate with the signature of former President Clinton while he was in office, Eagle Scouts can receive a certificate WITHOUT the signature of the Honorary President of the BSA (the President of the USA) on the certificate by request from the BSAs Eagle Scout Service.

I personally dont know why the disconnect between the White House Office of Public Communication (the office which handles, for instance, the Eagle Scout and Gold Award letters of commendation) and the BSA I had thought that after the Presidents acceptance of serving as the Honorary President of the BSA that everything has been smoothed out and like in prior years, the neccessary approvals have been made for the certificates and other items. I guess things are different with this administrationor the fact that they are STILL working short-handed in many offices and those offices whereby the folks are not short-handed, they just dont get it and understand the importance of a little thing like insuring that national organizations like the BSA has the proper stuff

Settummanque!

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Sorry to make a long post even longer - this is from "Innovation Engine", a msg board that looks like it's part of the official BSA site. This was under "Moderator Comments" to the same question:

9/28/09

From: James (Jamie) K. Shearer, Department Manager, Program Impact Department

The process of securing the signature of the President of the United States to be used on the Eagle Scout certificate is a complicated process. Dialog to secure the President's signature, begun shortly after the inauguration, continues. Concerning not receiving congratulatory letters from the President when asked, I would encourage your Eagle board chair to contact his/her Senator or Representative.

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"And that's all I've got to say about that."

--Gags