fred8033

I feel for you and your scout. I've often described scouting as shining when a magical mix occurs. The right fellow scouts. The right leaders. The right unit culture and experiences. If that happens, scouting shines. Far too often, one or more falls flat or even becomes a huge negative. if your son finds that magical mix in scouting, then celebrate. If not, it is always okay to find somewhere else where your son can shine. Our kids are young once and it goes fast. They need somewhere they can succeed and feel special. I hope it's in scouting. If not, that's okay too.

Yeah. I've seen that. We left a troop because of how another leader was treating my son's friend when it was really that the leader did not like the dad. It was their way to get rid of the dad. It damaged the son. Still makes me screaming mad today. An absolutely great comment. Scouting is supposed to be one part of a rich childhood. For us adult volunteers, we often get pulled in deep and it takes a lot of our personal time. I wonder if we could apply an analogy here. Supposed you and your wife talked about being extremely tight with money all the time when the kids were around. I guarantee you that kids pick up on that and start worrying and focused on the family money situation too. Same with marriage issues. If the parents are constantly arguing or disagreeing in front of the kids, the kids will pick up on that and their home-life becomes stressful and no-longer the safety net. I'd imagine it's the same for scouts. If we are constantly diving deep into scouting as adult volunteers, it probably pulls our scouts too deep into "scouting" and they can experience burn out. "Scouting" is supposed to be just one part of a rich childhood. I myself should probably have shielded my kids from all the scouting discussions and work even more then I did.

Ahhh ... I just re-read. You are right. $150 by August.

That's in the BSA case. Does it address state specific SOLs? Does it address cases that local councils already resolved via previous settlement? It is fair to say ... the BSA list is a fishing expedition. It's naive to think any council did not experience abuse cases. Just as it's naive to think that any school district or other large organization with youth did not experience abuse cases.

So $250 MILLION on lawyer fees by August? Say settlement of $500m or even $1B (insurance, etc). It is possible that law firms will get more money than victims. $250M + 25%/30% of award + (legal fees after August ??)... 50/50 split would be about a $500M award. $1B award would be about a 60/40 split (victims/law firms). This is just completely ugly.

Well written. THANK YOU !!!!!!

Yeah. It's not realistic to represent a massive bankruptcy as an opportune moment to open up. This is when companies remind employees that each and everything they say and publish can become part of the legal case. This is far outside corporate leadership and marketing. It's now a legal game. I still am not sure how why local councils are expected to contribute. Either they are legally separate entities since they were created or not. This is why individual companies exist separately.

I've never heard of "transparency" as practiced by lawyers or companies. Issue is not BSA. This is a corporate / legal issue and always has been.

Poor timing to sell iconic works of an American Master ... meaning ... bankruptcy and sexual abuse charges will suppress value.

Special Ed teachers since 2020 ... not sure 100% were special ed, but think so Chicago ... https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6tudxcCfBxkJ:https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-teacher-arrested-sexual-assault-20200218-isfuq67j6bg7pjh7h5q2n6mz44-story.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us Utah .. https://www.deseret.com/utah/2020/12/31/22208283/special-ed-teacher-charged-with-sex-abuse-in-spanish-fork-canyon-elementary Florida ... https://www.idahostatejournal.com/news/local/highland-high-school-special-education-teacher-accused-of-sexually-abusing-non-verbal-student/article_d298fae0-8153-53a9-9062-4e2097775c64.html New York .. https://nypost.com/2020/02/27/queens-teacher-arrested-for-sexually-abusing-special-needs-student/ California ... https://patch.com/california/northhollywood/special-needs-student-claims-abuse-special-education-teacher Alabama ... https://people.com/crime/ala-special-ed-teacher-allegedly-sexually-abused-student-husband-files-for-divorce-2-days-later/ List keeps going ad nauseum https://www.theedadvocate.org/when-teachers-sexually-abuse-students/ BSA is not really unique at all. More interesting statistics ... start reading page 20 onward for numbers ... very scary ... those percents are of 328 million people who are alive and gone thru the school system. Even 4% is 13 million students. 6.7 percent is about 22 million. etc, etc. https://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/research/pubs/misconductreview/report.pdf

Ya know ... medicine ... I forgot that one ... when I was a youth ... I'd hear news reports a few times a year about a dentist, a psychologist or a doctor that abused their patients (youth and adult) in our state. It's one reason a 2nd person or parent is required in the room for many examinations. Doctors often viewed as saints above the reproach of the commoner ... yet can often be abusers like the next guy down the block. Dr. Nassar (2018) ... 300+ gymnasts https://www.statnews.com/2018/02/05/larry-nassar-doctors-sexual-assault/ Multiple legally required mandatory reporters failed to report ... this is after year 2000. Multiple med deans and school professors failed to report or take action Pediatrician with 1,200+ victims https://doctors.ajc.com/why_abusive_doctors_not_caught/ Figure skating ... https://abcnews.go.com/US/skater-sues-coach-federation-alleged-sexual-abuse-coverup/story?id=71871705 Roller skating ... 200+ victims ... Trying to find name of the convicted predator that taught at roller rinks and abused 100s. His jail interview was part of Virtus training. Wrestling coach .., https://www.esquire.com/sports/a35120040/richard-strauss-ohio-state-wrestling-sexual-abuse/ Others often know ... Abuse victims are often not the first victim. Others see problems before the abuse happens. This stuff is not new and not unique to BSA.

I've seen one like that. Not sure if it was as long, but his kids then helped as ASMs.

I agree. My main reason to get my sons in scouting was to give them skills and interests that I hope serve them their whole lives. Going out into nature. Not being scared of new adventures. etc, etc, etc. There will ALWAYS be a demand for this. It might not be titled BSA, but some group will offer it.

Again, I know you went thru hell. My apologies. I believe the drop is real and started far in advance of the last ten years of law suits. Alot has changed since 2000. Scout leaders are legally required mandatory reporters Mandatory troop youth viewing of YP videos Complete revamp of training, who needs to be trained, etc Continued improvement and evolution of YP requirements and training Key one --> Every scout handbook for as long as my scouts have been members (I believe) starts a with phamplet for parents to read on YP. ... Even now part of rank requirements to be handled. "I BELIEVE" there is a big difference between 1980s and now that encourages scouts and leaders to speak up. I believe because of how it was handled in the 1980s and even early 1990s that many youth would not speak up right away. I'm betting now it is very different. Some will behave the same. But speaking up about being a victim does not contain the same stigma it had back 30 years ago. Still some stigma, but not like in the 1980s and earlier.

Every coach and sporting program markets based on values, character development, physical fitness, etc. We have surrendered a bit too much to BSA's marketing materials if we really think the purpose of scouting is that much different than sports. Every coach and sporting program worth their salt finds ways to work values and character development into their teaching. BSA Aims: Character development Leadership development Citizenship training Physical fitness Football per USA Football ... https://blogs.usafootball.com/blog/523/3-reasons-why-your-child-should-play-youth-football Love of game Physical fitness .,. BSA aim Teamwork ... BSA aim... Targeted exercise in citizenship Discipline ... BSA aim... aka character development Team sports: https://cyfastorms.org/10-reasons-why-kids-should-play-team-sports/ Teamwork ... BSA aim.. Targeted exercise in citizenship Physical fitness ... BSA aim Dealing with adversity ... aka character development Commitment ... aka character development Better grades ... aka character development Marine corp view of sports: https://usmc-mccs.org/articles/5-reasons-why-your-child-should-be-playing-sports/ Develops teamwork and leadership skills ... BSA aim Healthy life style ... BSA aim

Associated Press in 2017 found that in the previous four years, there were 17,000 sports victims ... without lawyers soliciting on TV ... often called inappropriate contact ... minimized by coaches ... mandatory reporting often not followed. Four years of sports with almost twice as many vs 30 years with BSA. So then church youth programs? School? Music and theater programs? Obviously BSA is not perfect. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing it's blind to think BSA sits alone.

But you've also said ... other parents knew / suspected ... other leaders "volunteer" leaders knew / suspected ... That's really the issue here. Directly the SM is to blame. He's the direct action. Secondly others that visually saw hints / behaviors that abuse was happening. Thirdly, probably where you were attending / structure and even your own family. The issue is whether BSA has issolated liability separate from the whole of society before everyone including society understood and created laws and expectations to stop. You've gone thru hell. Absolutely. I 100% recognize that. The question is who is to blame. I just don't accept that BSA is more to blame than pretty much the whole of the rest of society. I recently listened to a news article that helped me understand that there are whole other areas of youth programs where they've yet to come to grips with abuse. I really thought around year 2000 the country's YP infrastructure had matured. Apparently, not yet. We still have a far way to go.

Yep. We moved our PWD to a weeknight when janitors were already there. From $250 for cafeteria and janitor to about $30 for only the cafeteria. Another option we did was adopt a local county / state park and reserve one of their shelters for big events. But that's pricy too.

$4,000? WOW !!!!! Our pack met in a local school and dens in family homes. School charged us $6 per hour for the room. I doubt we ever paid more than $300 for the whole year of reservations even when it included special events big events. It was cheap because almost always (except weekend B&G and pinewood derby) the school was already staffed with janitors cleaning at night. If Janitor was not there, it would have been unaffordable because we'd have to pay janitor costs.

You might want to be ashamed of police, schools, churches, police and most people you meet on the street then. Here's a cheerful recent read. https://www.mprnews.org/story/2017/05/08/sex-assaults-in-high-school-sports-minimized-as-hazing

My apologies if I extend a worn out discussion .. that if BSA is especially at fault ... my asserting this is more a society issue than BSA. I was on a long drive yesterday. And, I'm a news junkie. I was listening to this on the radio. HIGHLY SUGGEST YOU READ THIS. ... I was hugely surprised at the extent / numbers. https://www.mprnews.org/story/2017/05/08/sex-assaults-in-high-school-sports-minimized-as-hazing Associated press news search found 17,000 cases in recent four year period Modern laws. Modern society understanding of abuse. Mislabeling / minimizing incidents Rape / penetration reported as hazing or "inappropriate physical contact" Multiple cases where coaches knew and failed to intervene or, worse, tried to cover it up Modern laws require "mandatory reporting", but failure to report BSA lawsuit mostly were before "mandatory reporting" laws applied to scout leaders This is consistent with my past and recent experiences. When I was in high school, multiple hockey players "hazed" other new players. Players were suspended, but victims dropped out for awhile (not 100% sure what happened). Recently, discussion with other school dads ... Traveling tournaments ... dads went out drinking at night ... team (20+ players) stayed behind at hotel with one adult as contact watching over them. Multiple hotel rooms. Players roaming. That was the standard for all traveling tournaments.

I'll move to separate thread.

Yeah ... but you can take them to a 3000 acre summer camp and let them disappear for large blocks of time, hiking as far and long as they want, etc ... all without an adult within site of them. The rules are not always 100% clear. Three scouts live down the street from each other. One drives. They normally drive everywhere together. It's hard to prevent them from going food shopping for the campout until they have an adult with them.

With my sons, each has gone thru ups and downs with scouting. Lots of ups with friends and wanting to see and spend time with them. Lots of ups with adventures, etc. Sadly lots of downs with conflict and boredom. A recent highlight was my 3rd son's last several years. Did it look like the perfect troop? No. But those scout sure had a lot of adventures and they were everywhere and active. Did they run their program, grow in independence and responsibility? Absolutely. I'll put those scouts against any in the country. Extremely proud of those guys.

I should probably stop posting. I feel strongly on this topic. It makes me sad.