fred8033

Poor timing to sell iconic works of an American Master ... meaning ... bankruptcy and sexual abuse charges will suppress value.

Special Ed teachers since 2020 ... not sure 100% were special ed, but think so Chicago ... https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6tudxcCfBxkJ:https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-teacher-arrested-sexual-assault-20200218-isfuq67j6bg7pjh7h5q2n6mz44-story.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us Utah .. https://www.deseret.com/utah/2020/12/31/22208283/special-ed-teacher-charged-with-sex-abuse-in-spanish-fork-canyon-elementary Florida ... https://www.idahostatejournal.com/news/local/highland-high-school-special-education-teacher-accused-of-sexually-abusing-non-verbal-student/article_d298fae0-8153-53a9-9062-4e2097775c64.html New York .. https://nypost.com/2020/02/27/queens-teacher-arrested-for-sexually-abusing-special-needs-student/ California ... https://patch.com/california/northhollywood/special-needs-student-claims-abuse-special-education-teacher Alabama ... https://people.com/crime/ala-special-ed-teacher-allegedly-sexually-abused-student-husband-files-for-divorce-2-days-later/ List keeps going ad nauseum https://www.theedadvocate.org/when-teachers-sexually-abuse-students/ BSA is not really unique at all. More interesting statistics ... start reading page 20 onward for numbers ... very scary ... those percents are of 328 million people who are alive and gone thru the school system. Even 4% is 13 million students. 6.7 percent is about 22 million. etc, etc. https://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/research/pubs/misconductreview/report.pdf

Ya know ... medicine ... I forgot that one ... when I was a youth ... I'd hear news reports a few times a year about a dentist, a psychologist or a doctor that abused their patients (youth and adult) in our state. It's one reason a 2nd person or parent is required in the room for many examinations. Doctors often viewed as saints above the reproach of the commoner ... yet can often be abusers like the next guy down the block. Dr. Nassar (2018) ... 300+ gymnasts https://www.statnews.com/2018/02/05/larry-nassar-doctors-sexual-assault/ Multiple legally required mandatory reporters failed to report ... this is after year 2000. Multiple med deans and school professors failed to report or take action Pediatrician with 1,200+ victims https://doctors.ajc.com/why_abusive_doctors_not_caught/ Figure skating ... https://abcnews.go.com/US/skater-sues-coach-federation-alleged-sexual-abuse-coverup/story?id=71871705 Roller skating ... 200+ victims ... Trying to find name of the convicted predator that taught at roller rinks and abused 100s. His jail interview was part of Virtus training. Wrestling coach .., https://www.esquire.com/sports/a35120040/richard-strauss-ohio-state-wrestling-sexual-abuse/ Others often know ... Abuse victims are often not the first victim. Others see problems before the abuse happens. This stuff is not new and not unique to BSA.

I've seen one like that. Not sure if it was as long, but his kids then helped as ASMs.

I agree. My main reason to get my sons in scouting was to give them skills and interests that I hope serve them their whole lives. Going out into nature. Not being scared of new adventures. etc, etc, etc. There will ALWAYS be a demand for this. It might not be titled BSA, but some group will offer it.

Again, I know you went thru hell. My apologies. I believe the drop is real and started far in advance of the last ten years of law suits. Alot has changed since 2000. Scout leaders are legally required mandatory reporters Mandatory troop youth viewing of YP videos Complete revamp of training, who needs to be trained, etc Continued improvement and evolution of YP requirements and training Key one --> Every scout handbook for as long as my scouts have been members (I believe) starts a with phamplet for parents to read on YP. ... Even now part of rank requirements to be handled. "I BELIEVE" there is a big difference between 1980s and now that encourages scouts and leaders to speak up. I believe because of how it was handled in the 1980s and even early 1990s that many youth would not speak up right away. I'm betting now it is very different. Some will behave the same. But speaking up about being a victim does not contain the same stigma it had back 30 years ago. Still some stigma, but not like in the 1980s and earlier.

Every coach and sporting program markets based on values, character development, physical fitness, etc. We have surrendered a bit too much to BSA's marketing materials if we really think the purpose of scouting is that much different than sports. Every coach and sporting program worth their salt finds ways to work values and character development into their teaching. BSA Aims: Character development Leadership development Citizenship training Physical fitness Football per USA Football ... https://blogs.usafootball.com/blog/523/3-reasons-why-your-child-should-play-youth-football Love of game Physical fitness .,. BSA aim Teamwork ... BSA aim... Targeted exercise in citizenship Discipline ... BSA aim... aka character development Team sports: https://cyfastorms.org/10-reasons-why-kids-should-play-team-sports/ Teamwork ... BSA aim.. Targeted exercise in citizenship Physical fitness ... BSA aim Dealing with adversity ... aka character development Commitment ... aka character development Better grades ... aka character development Marine corp view of sports: https://usmc-mccs.org/articles/5-reasons-why-your-child-should-be-playing-sports/ Develops teamwork and leadership skills ... BSA aim Healthy life style ... BSA aim

Associated Press in 2017 found that in the previous four years, there were 17,000 sports victims ... without lawyers soliciting on TV ... often called inappropriate contact ... minimized by coaches ... mandatory reporting often not followed. Four years of sports with almost twice as many vs 30 years with BSA. So then church youth programs? School? Music and theater programs? Obviously BSA is not perfect. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing it's blind to think BSA sits alone.

But you've also said ... other parents knew / suspected ... other leaders "volunteer" leaders knew / suspected ... That's really the issue here. Directly the SM is to blame. He's the direct action. Secondly others that visually saw hints / behaviors that abuse was happening. Thirdly, probably where you were attending / structure and even your own family. The issue is whether BSA has issolated liability separate from the whole of society before everyone including society understood and created laws and expectations to stop. You've gone thru hell. Absolutely. I 100% recognize that. The question is who is to blame. I just don't accept that BSA is more to blame than pretty much the whole of the rest of society. I recently listened to a news article that helped me understand that there are whole other areas of youth programs where they've yet to come to grips with abuse. I really thought around year 2000 the country's YP infrastructure had matured. Apparently, not yet. We still have a far way to go.

Yep. We moved our PWD to a weeknight when janitors were already there. From $250 for cafeteria and janitor to about $30 for only the cafeteria. Another option we did was adopt a local county / state park and reserve one of their shelters for big events. But that's pricy too.

$4,000? WOW !!!!! Our pack met in a local school and dens in family homes. School charged us $6 per hour for the room. I doubt we ever paid more than $300 for the whole year of reservations even when it included special events big events. It was cheap because almost always (except weekend B&G and pinewood derby) the school was already staffed with janitors cleaning at night. If Janitor was not there, it would have been unaffordable because we'd have to pay janitor costs.

You might want to be ashamed of police, schools, churches, police and most people you meet on the street then. Here's a cheerful recent read. https://www.mprnews.org/story/2017/05/08/sex-assaults-in-high-school-sports-minimized-as-hazing

My apologies if I extend a worn out discussion .. that if BSA is especially at fault ... my asserting this is more a society issue than BSA. I was on a long drive yesterday. And, I'm a news junkie. I was listening to this on the radio. HIGHLY SUGGEST YOU READ THIS. ... I was hugely surprised at the extent / numbers. https://www.mprnews.org/story/2017/05/08/sex-assaults-in-high-school-sports-minimized-as-hazing Associated press news search found 17,000 cases in recent four year period Modern laws. Modern society understanding of abuse. Mislabeling / minimizing incidents Rape / penetration reported as hazing or "inappropriate physical contact" Multiple cases where coaches knew and failed to intervene or, worse, tried to cover it up Modern laws require "mandatory reporting", but failure to report BSA lawsuit mostly were before "mandatory reporting" laws applied to scout leaders This is consistent with my past and recent experiences. When I was in high school, multiple hockey players "hazed" other new players. Players were suspended, but victims dropped out for awhile (not 100% sure what happened). Recently, discussion with other school dads ... Traveling tournaments ... dads went out drinking at night ... team (20+ players) stayed behind at hotel with one adult as contact watching over them. Multiple hotel rooms. Players roaming. That was the standard for all traveling tournaments.

I'll move to separate thread.

Yeah ... but you can take them to a 3000 acre summer camp and let them disappear for large blocks of time, hiking as far and long as they want, etc ... all without an adult within site of them. The rules are not always 100% clear. Three scouts live down the street from each other. One drives. They normally drive everywhere together. It's hard to prevent them from going food shopping for the campout until they have an adult with them.

With my sons, each has gone thru ups and downs with scouting. Lots of ups with friends and wanting to see and spend time with them. Lots of ups with adventures, etc. Sadly lots of downs with conflict and boredom. A recent highlight was my 3rd son's last several years. Did it look like the perfect troop? No. But those scout sure had a lot of adventures and they were everywhere and active. Did they run their program, grow in independence and responsibility? Absolutely. I'll put those scouts against any in the country. Extremely proud of those guys.

I should probably stop posting. I feel strongly on this topic. It makes me sad.

Cynicical versus positive. "They only care about money." ... I really disagree with that. No one starts a professional scouting career to become rich. Yeah, you can argue whether executives are paid too much, but running a million member organization takes a large infrastructure. The same complain about BSA execs can be made about almost every school principal and superintendants. They are paid too much. They should be volunteering more to educate our children. "benefit from these lawsuits" ... Scouts are benefiting from the drastic learning that happened in the 1980s/1990s and matured around the year 2000. Much came from lawsuits against day cares, churches, scouting, etc. Much came from opening up medical understanding of the abusers. Nothing new will be proven or learned by this lawsuit. No one will be made whole or even close to whole. We are digging up mostly old cases before a modern understanding of the crime and before current youth protection. This is just digging up old dirt ... only benefiting lawyers. I feel strongly because the worse is happening. Fewer youth will be in scouting because of this lawsuit. In no way is the average youth better by not being in scouting.

Not exactly parallel, but with interesting points. Analogy is Diocese = BSA Diocese own / hold parishes ... at least as strong connection as BSA to councils ... if not stronger. Parishes fund and run their own churches same as local councils Diocese does not give money to parishes same as BSA does not give money to councils Diocese has same or stronger control of parishes than BSA over councils. (staffing, funding, etc) https://www.mprnews.org/story/2015/01/16/explaining-archdiocese-bankruptcy "In most of the 11 other diocesan bankruptcy cases, parishes and schools were treated as separate entities. "

If you pull in local councils, what about troops that own their own building. Or scouter friends that established a foundation for to own their own camp (I know two locally). ... I suggest you also pull in almost every school district in the country as every school district actively supported scout recruitment and made space and time in their schedule for recruitment until the late 1990s ... and the 12000 that chartered troops ... now that's deep pockets ... and churches ... and so many other groups that did not pursue things. The government recognized the separate legal existenance of councils thru incorporation and taxes. Non-profits were structured separately. How far do you really reach back? This whole thing is wrong and abuse of the legal system.

Yeah ... We're just 100% different on this. We can agree it should pay what it "owes", but I'd argue on what it owes. This lawsuit is fundamentally wrong. The abuse was 100% wrong, but so is this lawsuit. The whole situation is wrong upon wrong and immoral upon immoral.

Saw that too thru IT automation. Billing every phone call, every DB search, every piece of paper copied, every office expense, etc.

Timely news ... "Lawyers involved in a massive settlement of civil lawsuits arising from the Flint water crisis would receive up to $202.8 million in attorney fees, plus nearly $7.2 million in expenses, under a proposal filed with a federal judge late Monday night. Overall, attorney fees would consume about 32% of the total settlement of $641.25 million." https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/flint-water-crisis/2021/03/09/attorney-fees-flint-water-crisis-civil-lawsuit-settlement/4626273001/

There is no reasonable in cases like this. It's far, far, far too low and also too high at the same time. I just don't see any good from this. The only good is ending the case.

Continue to be amazed. Once entering bankruptcy, I didn't know a debtor could choose to route money to a specific set of claims. Rather, the court would have to settle. i.e. the $300m BSA offered in first offer would be for all debt claims and only a portion would go to abuse claims. Or was $300m part of a larger bankruptcy filing with more funds. Complexity of this case will be amazing.