fred8033

Don't discredit a valid argument. The immediate actions were crimes. The extending liability to the larger organization may or may not have have been established cased law. Extending treating "volunteers" as legal agents of the larger organization is something relatively new too. More definitely, mandatory reporting laws did not exist back then. When incidents happened, in almost every case I saw there were discussions on how it should be handled. Many, many times involving the parents. Often other volunteer leaders too. If the parents knew ... why did they not call the police ! If other parents knew, why did they not call the police ! Other times, police or other groups were involved too and still nothing happened. So now we are blaming legally someone who was not legally responsible to escalate and ignoring multiple levels of those directly connected. I don't see anyone saying BSA should be proud. I'm saying don't cast the stone unless you are free of guilt.

I agree. This is not theory. You were failed by church, schools, law enforcement, family, society, medical profession, etc. This stuff wasn't unknown. It's not about a theoretical failure. If you apply a measure of distance (interaction with the people), who's actually to blame. The "volunteer" SM committed the offense. He's the direct responsible person. The other "volunteer" leaders in the unit are the 2nd level. The church that sponsored your unit is then the next level. You physically met there. Their "employees" probably had a closer connection. Parents who suspected and dropped their own kids off. Local law enforcement. etc. This is not theory. Guilt is far and wide on this. Pretending BSA is uniquely at fault is shameful. I have a friend who's dad was as medical doctor. When someone got injured on the sports field, the last thing he wanted was for his son to point out his dad was a doctor because it created liability. That's what's happening with BSA. Huge holes throughout society. BSA tried to put protections in place and it is coming back to haunt them. BSA tried to do drive a mission that has a massively huge good is now erased because society has never handled abuse like this well.

And society has someone to blame for what is pretty much a society wide issue. It's about blame and labeling a group while pretending everyone else is better. Shame. It's a modern day bigotry and hatred.

That is a mix of truth. When you add "monthly", then yes. Remove monthly and keep un-related adults, remote locations, without cameras, without public supervision, overnights and now BSA is common with most youth serving organizations. Each organization has it's risk in different areas. Camps - Almost every youth servicing organization encourages one or more camps per year (YMCA, 4-H, girl camps, etc). Private times - most organizations have similar quantities of opportunities.

Same behaviors exist in many organizations. Sports. Church youth groups. And in 4-H. Maybe 4-H is truly special. I'm not a 4-H expert. But then again, you can find incidents as you indicated earlier. https://www.deseret.com/2007/7/4/20028174/4-h-leader-in-tooele-is-charged-with-child-sex-abuse https://www.cbsnews.com/news/abuse-charged-at-4-h-summer-camp/ I am creeped out with several 4-H YP postings that emphasize volunteers are not mandatory reporters ... in their area. States are inconsistent with rules. I'm just surprised 4-H did not say all 4-H volunteers will act as mandatory reporters and MUST report. Others documents use the words "can" and "should" instead of must. https://www.udel.edu/content/dam/udelImages/canr/pdfs/extension/4H/club-management/Child-Abuse-Neglect.pdf https://www.extension.iastate.edu/4h/files/page/files/Child Abuse Awareness and Reporting (2).pdf https://www.clemson.edu/extension/newberry/4h/files/volunteer-files/Vol_Handbook 18-19.pdf Failure to recognize this as a broad society based issue is the real risk to kids. Putting it on BSA is less about protecting kids and more about finding someone to blame.

Yeah. That was standard of care back in the 1970s and probably even sometime into the 1980s. People sitting loose in the back of trucks. Station wagons with kids sitting in back (without the rear chairs). No requirement for seat belts.

Can you provide reference to CDC recommendation?

Yeah. I'd be surprised if 4H is statistically different than BSA. Lots of youth. Lots of private opportunities. If 4H is perceived to be significantly different, I'd want to ask why? More women leaders than men? (real difference) ... Not tracking such information (data management) ... Left it to the public community to track / handle (not a real difference) Right now I'm leaning to say 4-H did it better by not handling it and just letting it go to an outside organization. The major part of this situation is BSA is tracking the ineligible volunteers. It could be viewed as added value, but right now it is a legal night mare. BSA would have been better off to let everything go external at the direction of parents and other volunteers. We're talking problems that were crimes or after the fact became crimes. We're talking problems where leaders recently became mandatory reporters but often were not at the time of the incident. BSA tracking incidents adds a gold mine to fish decades later for legal opportunities to exploit. I just don't accept that BSA was statistically that different than other organizations.

Sadly, the IV files represented a best effort and a huge legal liability. So the legal risk almost dictates not maintaining those files. That happens in other industries too. Best current example are corporations that force relatively short email retention periods as standard policy that is hard to circumvent. I don't agree on BSA losing it's soul. The numbers are huge, but so is youth membership. I suspect BSAs numbers are parallel to other youth serving organizations.

I do think the age 40s age transition is changing, but I recognize the stigma is still there. What I meant more was ... if I remember reading your story ... there were other leaders that suspected problems ... there were other parents that were concerned but protected their own kids ... from what I've learned from multiple organizations ... this is common. There is an inertia to not raise a flag that needs to be overcome. It did not happen. That's extremely sad and continued the damage. .... I think of the Weinstein cases ... dozens of people could have reported, but then put their own success and status at risk. Thus allowing dozens more be victimized. What I was referring to was that BSA adopted background checks and notified you. I would be surprised if BSA's legal experts kept detailed files. Maybe the files were purged. I'm surprised the files were not purged far earlier. Most companies do purge such records to prevent those from being used as evidence in future fishing.

Interesting point. I think I've heard about that once before, but I don't remember all the details.

Sadly, that's probably the right course. You were notified. It should have gone to law enforcement at the time of the incident too. By fellow leaders. By your family. By someone. I know there is a huge problem getting anyone even on the peripheral to report. It's the nature of "oh, that person can't be that bad" or "I don't want to be involved" .or "I'm not sure". ... Someone ... one of many ... should have reported it to the law. But once SOLs have lapsed and people have moved on, any organization worth it's salt should purge old records.

I do agree. An adult saying to a youth to stay in for Eagle ... it's just hot air and too far away to have context. Our troop succeeded when the SM/SPL would talk about the troops activities and opportunities. Unspoken was the SPL and another senior scout who were wearing their full uniform, sharp and crisp. I'm absolutely sure those young kids looked up to those scouts and wanted to be like them. BSA really needs to get back to roots. Kids want to have adventures with their friends. Deliver on that promise.

Reading this thread. Scouting has followed society. Grate inflation distorting GPAs ACTs/SATs now being de-valued because of families gaming the system with practice tests and test tutors. Far easier now to write a paper than back in the 1970s with a type-writer or pen and paper. No trips to the library No white out No re-write the page because of writing mistakes. Grade inflation for me when I was a kid was with lettering. I lettered 7 or 8 times because each extra-curricular program I was in established it's own "lettering" standards. Gaming the system has been around for decades. Race To Nowhere documentation is an interesting. I need to watch.

I hugely agree on this. Several of my sons have incredible stories of fellowship, problem solving, huge work ethics, adventures that are truly meaningful. I'm significantly involved in the local Eagle processes, but at the same time I see little value in Eagle if the scout does not have a strong network of scouts ... if the scout has not had adventures ... if the scout has not pushed the boundaries of fear and being uncomfortable.

I can see that. Professors promoting hate and bigotry by accusing other groups as hateful.

@ThenNow wrote ... "I'm also baffled by the lack of strategic organizational, financial and risk management planning. With the number or high-level attorneys and professionals associated with the organization, what were they thinking? Also, what were they doing? This goes to YPT, too. (DavidCO - please don't get your waterboard.) This is personal and corporate tax, estate and legacy planning 101. Maybe 201. Put stuff in trust. Create holding companies. Install distance and buffer entities. Protect and sequester assets. Don't commingle. It sounds complicated, but it's not so much so that an organization like the BSA couldn't have a poop sheet to tell LCs how to do what...years ago. Just sayin'. They brought this on themselves with denial and a good deal of arrogance, imho. That relates to the asset scramble and the abuse cases. Fast and loose." I agree on this. Since 1990s, corporations have focused on cleaning up record tracking systems that can be used for legal fishing. I've seen this personally in one of the companies I was in where a lawsuit was used to open records that then created a cascade of further legal issues. ... I was actually surprised that the ineligible volunteer files still existed. I hugely believe it was a good intention from before society recognized the issues and started having the structures in place. ... And a good intention to try to block bad volunteers that no one else is flagging as bad. .... BUT, as shown now, it's also a huge liability that can be pulled into lawsuits for fishing. .... I really question the value of tracking 20+ year old incidents. ... When BSA adopted external background checks, BSA should have let the background check system work as designed. No legal issue? No background trouble? Then, it's up to the CO. Sadly, the ineligible volunteer file probably would be a useful tool. But it's also a massive liability.

Yep. Most of the time there are "open doors" and smart teachers try to avoid being alone. But students are often in the building at all hours when there are often few other observers. Those wanting to can and will find/create opportunities.

personal story ... sadly ... LOL ... I recently had a rather hard headed discussion with my youngest son where I emphasized I did not view a C as something to be proud of. ... I might have said that "C" reflected he attended, was breathing and awake, but it did not reflected that he learned anything. ... It's not that I was that upset about the grade itself. I was upset that he was holding up the C as if it's something he should be proud of. He's in school. I expect him to invest effort to learn. If he invests effort, he should be able to get at least a B. C is a good indication he did not invest the effort. He didn't like the class. So he didn't care. ... That was not acceptable.

Teachers not allowed to be alone with students ... I'm absolutely hugely surprised too. Back in the 1980s in the music practice rooms we used, there were no windows. You were in there behind a closed door with a teacher. Even today, there are many hidden nooks in most middle and high schools. Teachers can easily be alone with students. In teachers defense, I've seen multiple times where a student had a crush on a teacher and sought out individual time. ... I'm just surprised there are not more strict rules as much to protect the teacher as to protect the student. What surprises me, is that we are far into the realm of "mandatory reporters" for teachers and coaches. Scout leaders have probably fell into the last expansion of mandatory reporters. I really think people get lost in the numbers and how big the numbers are in any huge organization. You want to fix this, fix it in society as a whole.

@David CO ... Back in the 1980s, 1990s or even early 2000s, I can understand that thought process. I'll say it again, BSA is not unique here. And in may ways BSA was further ahead than other organizations. We've now been in 20 years of mandatory reporting and a more mature understanding of the problem. But we still see cases happen on massive scales. Youth sports where penetration described as inappropriate touching and couches plead ignorance ... yet later shown to have known. AP found 17,000 over a four year period ending in 2017. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sexual-assaults-in-high-school-sports-minimized-as-hazing-ap/ Universities ... Southern California with Tyndall, Michigan with Nassar, Penn State with Penn State with Sandusky K-12 - 10% of students subject to sexual misconduct by school employee ... https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/252484.pdf Society does not protect children well and on the other hand we have helicopter parents. It's the post-2010 cases that do astound me. Especially in BSA with the strong YPT focus and rules. I'm extremely surprised in schools. I'm much less surprised in sports though as they have not generally had their spotlight in national news yet. I just don't feel this should be an end for BSA. Perhaps, it is right BSA transforms into a family oriented program. Teaching values in an outdoor setting with family members often there with their scouts. Whole families now are disconnected and not comfortable in the outdoors. I could see this being a good thing.

Yep. I read that too, but punishment takes many forms and thru many ways, civil and criminal. That is specifically BSA's situation. The individuals criminally responsible can't be prosecuted. BSA can't be criminally prosecuted, but BSA is effectively facing a death sentence for criminal acts by a 3rd party by the extension of a civil SOL. It's just interesting. 5th amendment protection limitations (example: expiring when SOL expires) might not be limitations anymore as SOLs (yes civil) are not absolute and can be made retroactive. We've also seen that immunity agreements are not necessarily binding. Imperfect immunity agreement. Cosby case. Prosecutors clearly intended and negotiated an immunity agreement inexchange for a deposition. The next prosecutor argued it was beyond the prosecutor's power to establish. Instead of saying the deposition had to be thrown out, the judge kept the deposition, but threw out the immunity. Immunity is not absolute and testimony can come back to haunt the person testifying. Depending on the twists and turns, you can still be charged with other aspects if evidence can put you under other charges. Immunity does not cross between federal and state jurisdictions.

I'm following another trial recently. One of the key witnesses took a 5th amendment protection against testifying. I started reading about scope of 5th amendment. Whether prosecutor could eliminate the protection if he guarantees against protection, etc. My reading interesting tied to BSA's SOL situation. ... a very weak tie, but still ... BSA's current situation could only occur after states started retroactively extending statue of limitations and that retroactive SOL change was found legal. .... Relating to 5th amendment, 5th amendment applies generally as long as the person has not already been punished for the action and the SOL has not expired. ... BUT if it can be reasonably demonstrated that SOLs can retroactively be changed, the person can argue that SOLs are not an absolute anymore and that they need to protect themselves against criminal prosecution and civil liability. BSA's chapter 11 case will have interesting legal ramifications for the future.

That is my thought too. BSA really has little to do with any operation. Each council would need to revisit fundamentals like recording advancement and even the rights to use training materials. But, that would be years out resolving such rights. Until then and even after, councils could continue to run camps, etc. In fact, councils might have an easier go as they would not need to route "DUES" to a national organization. Instead, they could keep more of the funds locally.

In court, probably. In personal opinion, no. I'll continue to argue that this lawsuit is morally bankrupt and will help no one. It will damage all who touch it except the lawyers.