fred8033

And if your COR is also the CC, then talk to the charter executive officer (the pastor, etc).  If you don't know who that is, call the council office for advice.

On 10/16/2023 at 10:53 AM, Tron said:

... most scouts only need to camp 3 nights a year ....

I'd question the value of scouting if that's the average.  For active scouts in our troop, the average was closer to 15 to 20.  Summer camp 5 nights.  5 to 10 of the offered monthly campouts.  3 nights a year does not sound like fun scouting.

On 10/16/2023 at 10:53 AM, Tron said:

... get by and make it to Eagle on $300 a year if their unit doesn't add to the standard. 

I really hate thinking that way.  Yes possible, but what is the value of scouting then.

12 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

... who also wanted the BSA disbanded, but in this case to make room for a new NSO. ...

This is one of those cases where I roll my eyes.  The key is should youth be challenged by going outside camping to have experiences beyond their comfort zone.  Then whether it's BSA or a NSO, it's moot.  IMHO, a NSO would be a huge waste of pre-existing resources and goodwill to rebrand to satisfy a small population of disgruntled people.  

BSA cries out for real, massive re-engineering, but destroying and restarting is just not a real option.

@Mrjeff  The challenge is defining what are the rules?  With BSA been beat up with so many challenges lately, I really don't know the rules your a concerned about.   A specific MB that is strongly political?  Faith requirements?  Sexual orientation?  Gender?  What is your analogy specifically targeting?

At some point, I wish we'd just define Eagle scout (our ideal result) as completing 100 nights of camping with similar number of cooking their own camp meals, setting up their own tent, etc, etc ... and, some skill demonstrations (First aid.  Swimming.  Camping.  Cooking.  etc, etc) and say 150 hours of service.   

The rest is noise and too often 3rd rate quality.

1 hour ago, dk516 said:

@Cburkhardtwhat do you actually pay with the $400 that you calculate? We finally got to stop comparing ourselves to band, sports and everything else and always advertising what a bargain Scouting is because this is only partially true and highly depends on how you look at.

Between National, Council and Troop dues, our Scouts spend $230 for Youth and $90 for adults respectively. Monthly campouts with our Troop probably average about $35 a month * 10 months which is another $350. So, that's $570 a year for the "right to participate" and some monthly outings and couple patches throughout the year. This is twice of what our High School charges for their varsity sports team to participate the season (I purposely do not account for gear since I do not do that for Scouts either in this scenario). 

Now that's just the "common" stuff the unit does. Add $550 for our Council Summer Camp (In-council discount, short travel distance, etc.) which brings us to $1'120 for an average 1st or 2nd year Scout for a year of Scouting. 

Now let's look at the "must do for the full Scouting experience stuff" for our older Scouts: $1'800 for 12 days at Philmont; $2'500-3'000 to travel to Sea Base or Northern Tier or $3'500 for the Council contingent to go the Jambo. Not even looking at the cost to go to World Jambo. $3'000 is more than what I personally account for a cool family holiday and is way on par with what a sports season cost.

Then we need adults on top of all of this which is time spent volunteering, time needed to take off jobs (holidays or unpaid) and cost spent because even though adult attendance is mandatory for YPT and minimum crew requirements, they still pay most if not all of the cost incurred.

Looking at my own family and many families in our units that are very active and keep the Troop rolling, there are many where Scouting becomes a $10'000 annual cost factor for a family with older Scouts. 

So the often sung statement that Scouting is a bargain, or as our Council used to advertise it "the cost of one cup of coffee from a major coffee chain a month" is really only partially true. And yes, everything else is also getting more expensive but I know many that are starting the weigh the cost / benefits and the scales are not tipping in favor of the program.

Ten years ago, we were at least $7000 for a few years.  Four scouts active and two adults.  A few years the kids attended summer camps from multiple troops.  Sometimes high adventures.  Other costs.  ... On top of the explicit cost, add wear and tear on cars and adults and time away from jobs.

15 hours ago, jcousino said:

Not undertaking Council level fundraisers most make your unit not very popular with the DE. what do you do with friends of scouting?

Councils are already seeing that.  Thus councils starting all-in funding themselves too.  Individuals pay much larger fees and are not expected to do FOS.

Question ... if $400 is cost, why collect $200 ?   Or is the $400 with weekend campouts ?

Nope.  It was a power mom that wanted her son to earn Eagle.

8 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

The choice there is to complete either swimming OR hiking OR cycling; one of those three.  None of those replace camping.

I only mentioned camping as we had a similar challenge with a parent suggesting that camping counted by pitching a tent inside a building counted as camping as the scout did not like sleeping outside.  That defeated purpose of the badge.  Similar to a stationary exercise bike instead of a road bike outside on the road.

31 minutes ago, MikeS72 said:

Except for the fact that it is Eagle required.

Cycling or hiking or swimming.  It's not really required.  

If none of those are possible, then there are other options like @RememberSchiff suggested.   I read in the original post "had" large motor delays.  I took it as the scout matured slowly.   If the scout still has disabilities, than the disability route should be taken.  

Also, I really like what @InquisitiveScouter suggested.  I see many adults all the time use recumbent bikes.  There are three wheel versions of those too.
https://www.amazon.com/Mobo-Recumbent-Cruiser-Tricycle-3-Wheel/dp/B002LOT6SK/ref=sr_1_16?crid=1CNSPNNDLZ1RE&keywords=recumbent%2Broad%2Bbike%2Bperformance&qid=1696517636&sprefix=recumbant%2Broad%2Bbike%2Bperformance%2Caps%2C112&sr=8-16&th=1

IMHO, I'd really rather see a replacement MB than something that rips the guts out of the MB. 

No for different reasons.  It's just a badge.  Earning that specific badge isn't really needed.  It won't block advancement. 

What about really growing as a person?  That's the MB purpose.  Using a real bike is meaningful and useful.  ... Would he wear the badge with pride and a symbol of fulfilling what the badge is about?  I'd argue no.   Sitting on a stationary bike for hours is exercise and not much about cycling.  It's like parents that wanted kids to earn camping but the kid would not sleep outside in a tent.  So, can you earn "camping" by pitching a tent inside a cabin and then sleep in the tent?  I'd argue no.  

The key point is scout rank and scout merit badges are just not that important.  Learning and growing is.  Now, we can be extremely flexible in interpreting requirements.  

14 hours ago, TroopSPL1 said:

... I was told at the end of my 6 month term that since no one else wants my position I either do it again during the school year or we don't have an SPL and we are disbanding. ...

Scouting units should scale up and down depending on resources and interest.  No no youth scouts want to be leaders?  19 inactive scouts and 7 active scouts?  Sounds like the structured program is not the best.  Perhaps there is something wrong there.   ... Fine.  ... For now, the troop adult leaders should scale back to focus on providing an active fun program.  Camp outs.  Activities.  Fellowship.  etc, etc, etc.   Troop should not worry about a structured program that develops youth leadership (for now).  Plus IMHO, the best lessons for youth leadership happen naturally thru the troop being active.  Helping each other set up tents.  Naturally by cooking meals.  ... As soon as scouts show interest, adults continually step back into the shadows and let the scouts naturally lead scouts.  It's a dance.  

To the SPL:  My advice is the same to you as to a seasoned adult volunteer.   Don't be a victim.  Don't sacrifice yourself to save a unit.  You have a life.  You have choices to make where you want to spend your time.  If it's in scouting, that's your choice.  ...   It is 100% okay to step back.  ... In fact, I think it's a good idea for you.  ...  If I was your parent and saw you have a job, I'd be very proud.  Fewer youth work to earn their own way these days.  ... In high school?  I'd expect you to need to scale back.  ...  Keep your health.  Keep your sanity.   Celebrate life and the journey you are on.

General ... COR selects leaders and that's mostly it.  KEY POINT --> COR does NOT inject into daily execution.  COR does not guide or approve anything daily.   Problem is that many people sign up to be COR to get power over SM/CC.   The real defense is that SM/CC are volunteers.  The willingness to move on is real power.  Be prepared to walk away.   That takes away the COR overreaching their role. ...  Same with CC overstepping his role.  CC runs committee that administers the troop.  The CC does NOT execute the program or work with scouts.  ...  Don't passively support the CC by letting him do that.  

The Eagle Court of Honor.  ... COR/CC should NOT be injecting anything into a Eagle Court of Honor.  IMHO, threatening to throw a tantrum is hot air.   Go ahead and do it.  He'll look like a foot and destroy the troop.  ...  Plus !!!
* There is no such thing as an official Eagle ceremony. 
* The ceremony does not make the Eagle.  It's just recognition after-the-fact.  
* If COR threatens to stop the ECOH, then the COR is saying I'm firing the SM and CC.  So, stopping an ECOH would be firing the unit leaders.  
* IMHO, the most important is that many troops view the ECOH as NOT a troop event and not a patrol event.  It's a scout event.  The scout and his family chooses the venue, script, attendees, related awards, etc.  

Fundraising ... I did not understand the fundraising statement.  BUT, we generally don't keep cash in the scout closet.  It should be deposited and credited to the right accounts.  Transparency.   CC works with treasurer to administer it.  COR is not involved.  

...

Too many roles ... A good CC should be CC (maybe COR) and then do nothing else.  Maybe fill in as necessary.  Then, smooze and con (aka recruit) the next "volunteer" to help.  That's how a good troop keeps running.  That's a key job of the CC.

Summary ... Sounds like you need to have a real non-stressful heart to heart with the CC.  If you can't solve it, decide whether to talk to the head pastor or other.  Otherwise, be prepared to walk away.  Let him burn down his own house.  You don't need to burn with it. 

Wishing you the best.  We get one life.  It's right to move on when the magic is lost and the pain becomes real.  Wishing you the best in all things you do.

3 hours ago, Tron said:

Training is key

It's very important, but even with the training I've seen ... people run the program they've learned from the previous unit leaders or they do what they want.   Training is very important but not a failure root cause.

3 hours ago, Tron said:

...  All of the dying troops in my area have the same things in common: no relationship to a pack  ...  All of the dying packs in my area have the same things in common: only have a relationship with 1 troop,

This is a fundamental issue in my view:  the broken connections between packs and troops. 

Directly related, "emphasizing" troop shopping is bad.  If the unit is not a good match, then switch.  Fine.   BUT!  It's bad to have individuals shopping around causing splits and breaks in continuity.  A few big units thrive.  Smaller and medium units hurt.  Worse, long term relationships get damaged as people move for various reasons.   ... In this day and age of driving around and shopping, people are used to going further and looking for the best deal.  IMHO, this is bad for scouting as it moves youth away from their immediate community.

My view is a single unit committee that oversees a program from youngest cubs to oldest scout / explorer is critical.  New parents see where what their scout could achieve.  Youth have older scouts to look up too.   Plus, experienced older scouts could help run some younger programs at times.

3 hours ago, Tron said:

..., do not run year round programs, doing their own thing. 

Yep.  Also bad.

Troops have a big mix of families.  Some families have their act together.  Uniforms ironed and ready to go.  Others, can barely get by each day and never know where the scout uniforms are.  Others are somewhere in the middle.  ... Above answers are correct.  I just suggest thinking of this with a soft and compassionate heart.  At the same time, a well uniformed troop is a pride point for the scouts too.

55 minutes ago, NDW5332 said:

When my son started as a Tiger, there were 3 dens of 6 - one with kids from one school, one with kids from another close school, and the 3rd was homeschooled and "floaters".  By the start of the Bear year, the three dens were down to 1.  So, what happened.  8 of the original 18 had left because families moved. 2 left because they were diagnosed with learning disabilities, went to new schools with special programs, and the parents did not want their sons to be left behind because they hadn't finished Wolf.  3 more left because of travel sports - their coaches gave them ultimatums sport or scouts.  That left a Bear den of 5. By the end of the Bear year,  1 more moved away, 1 left to join another pack in the area, because his dad was the UC and wanted to join an "accelerated program" that would combine Web 1 and AOL and Boy Scout requirements, so they could join a 'brother troop' as a Tenderfoot in less than a year (not sure if it was legal, particularly with the ages of the boys, but OK). 1 more left and followed that family.  So we started Web 1 with 2, my son plus 1 more. We added another Web 1 after a recruitment night.  At the end of the year, one of the kids that went to the "accelerated program" came back (not the UC's kid).  Picked up 2 more at the start of AOL in the recruiting night.  All 6 crossed over at the end of the year to two different troops. 2 have earned Eagle already, 1 is very close (only needs to dot some lower-case "J's" on the application, turn in the paperwork and schedule the BOR). 1 did end up dropping out of Scouts after 6 months. From what I have heard, the last 2 are still going strong and are working through their advancement...so where was I? I think there are often a lot of external factors that affect retention and attrition and there isn't one magic silver bullet that will solve what ails a pack or troop.

Sounds very normal and a good representation.

1 hour ago, PACAN said:

Both of these councils have 1000 youth or less. 

I've never understood scouting finances.  1000 youth at say roughly $100 per youth revenue gets $100,000.  How can you pay a council president, staff and other people at that level?  I know there are other fees (camping, sales, etc), but it still leaves the vast majority coming from fund raising.  Wow.

4 minutes ago, skeptic said:

A bit late to the game, but maybe not.  One of the things that was changed in the past decade or less was the required filing of an actual tour permit, which included approval, in theory, of the local council.  Part of that was an endorsement validating that all drivers had the insurance needed, based on GSS and also the state in which they resided or were to go through or to.  That was something that I still feel should have stayed in the mix, as it made the events be considered for that safety factor, along with guaranteeing, again in theory, the leaders were trained.  I do not know why it was dropped, other than councils were not able to validate things or keep good records due to expenses ???

Dropped it can easily become evidence of negligence and liability.  It's one reason I think BSA should move away from being a "membership" organization. 

38 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Glad my older two are out because I do not think I could afford all 4 of us in the program ( would have been 5, but after multiple attempts to get the wife registered, and when she is finally registered as an MBC, she gets dropped with every other MBC in the council, she said "enough is enough. no more."

Scouting is financially prohibitive.  I noticed that ten years ago.

At one point, my family had four active scouts and two registered adults (wife and myself).  With new council fees ($200+), my family would be at $890.  Add unit dues for four scouts.  Add another $1500 for summer camp.  Add another $30+ minimum per person per weekend camp out.  Add miscellaneous costs.  I would need to budget at least $4000 per year to have my kids in scouting.  

That is two or three really nice family vacations per year.  Heck, I could afford a small camper at this cost.

1 hour ago, RichardB said:

Keep reading:   Risk advisory for each HAB are provided with the AHMR download:   https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/ahmr/

Same conflicting statements existed when I went to Sea Base and when my younger son went.   Show the doctor the participant guide to the doctor.  Have the doctor sign the form.  You are good.  Call Sea Base office if really concerned.

• FAQ --> https://www.bsaseabase.org/scouts/resources/faq/
• Sailing guide (page 5) --> https://www.bsaseabase.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/2022-Sailing-Participant-Guide-.-Editable.pdf

17 hours ago, RichardB said:

... The height/weight chart will apply ...  When your travels take you more than 30 minutes off an accessible roadway, fire lane, camp road, etc., or where you float, walk, hike, bike, or otherwise go into the backcountry. ...

The quote is the rule, but the application is confusing.  Backcountry is about extricating a person in an emergency.  Sea Base is not called out in the rule when Philmont is explicitly named.   Sea Base activities are often where a rescue boat can pull right up to the scout ship or Munson island.  So, does "backcountry" apply?   ...  Many resident scout camps could be considered far more back country than Sea Base.  IMHO, use the Sea Base participant guide for clarity.  

On 9/5/2023 at 4:45 AM, BigCubr said:

The Sea Base (and others, I think) program guide gives weight limit tables by height.

I know Philmont does that.  Does Sea Base?  I just looked in the Sailing participant guide.  It says 295; not by height.

• FAQ --> https://www.bsaseabase.org/scouts/resources/faq/
• Sailing guide (page 5) --> https://www.bsaseabase.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/2022-Sailing-Participant-Guide-.-Editable.pdf

Lion and Tiger dens of less than eight are problematic as the den usually doesn't survive to Webelos / AOL.  Lose one or two a year.  By Webelos, you are at two or three scouts.  The den folds.  

IMHO, get your daughter into a healthy den / pack.  At some point, it's about your own kid's experience.  The years go very, very quick.  Really.  It's not worth fighting a bad situation.  Sometimes it's better to let a den or pack die fast; than to drag it out.