fred8033

Thank you. Just watched it. Very professional. Very informative. Very professional. #1 Seemingly confusing contradiction. TCC argues not legal for bankruptcy to protect non-bankrupt party, but TK predicts chapter 7 where LC assets are pulled in. Not sure if it is, but these seem like contradicting views. #2 Statement - TCC stated non-profits can't be forced into bankruptcy. Only can do voluntarily. That's news to me. Makes me wonder on TK statements predicting chapter 7 final result. #3 Criteria that victims must do better in chap 11 than chap 7. I thought that would be easy for BSA to prove given chap 7 means employee retirement programs are funded before legal settlements.

Can you post the link? I've not watched one yet as I'm not a member and wanted to stay a little separate from that channel.

My personal view ... Zero chance of victims getting money in 2022. Even if the Dec 2021 plan was accepted, victims face many months of evaluating claims, money passing to law firms that then pass to victims. That itself could easily take the rest of the year. If a new plan / mediation, etc needs to happen, we're then into 2023. Purdue Pharma filed for bankruptcy in Sept 2019. No money has gone yet. Bankruptcy is in question. ... BSA filed six months later with a more complex bankruptcy; more complex victimization and more complex questions. Given past performance, I would not be surprised if 2023 passes too.

I always though the membership number problems of the 1980s/1990s was marketing to FOS and United Way to get more donations. I never connected that to CE pay. Metrics are important. There must be the right metrics to review CE pay. For example, common accounting requires reporting numbers a certain way. Perhaps, membership dues revenue could be used as a factor toward CE pay. On the flip side ... business in turbulent times often have trouble with pay / salaries not being scaled right.

Many believe the pandemic is a lull that will take a few years (5 to 10 to 20) to recover from. It's like many business trying to plan for their long term size based on current levels. ... Question will always be the long-term membership numbers. We've been in 20 years of lawsuits. There is a scouting future and it will include BSA if/when BSA can get past the legal / public relations issues. My question would be ... Perhaps council charters should also have a line saying executive salaries will be re-adjusted if membership numbers drop. ... example ... a scout exec should not earn half of council funds.

Waiting December vote results to be processed by court. Expecting plan to be rejected. Expecting months (or longer) investigating (deposition, court filings, etc) the December vote Expecting months (or longer) finding the next step.

Correct. The charter agreement ... like a franchise agreement ... is not a mutual suicide pact. If one business partner fails, the other has a right to try to continue with the assets they own. If BSA did convert to chapter 7 liquidation and stop operating, ... Finances Dues? Healthier councils if dues kept local? 20,000 scouts at current dues is $1.4m. Event cut in half, that would be significant to the local council budget. Cheaper scouting? Scout stuff / shop is NOT cheap. PDF rank books? 3rd party standard clothing? Intellectual property Would local councils form an association to purchase IP in auction? Ground Round franchisees did this when Ground Round corporate went out of business. Those restaurants continued operation (not sure how long) without the corporate franchisor. Would local councils collectively sue the BSA chapter 7 bankruptcy for damages caused by BSA going out of business ... rebranding, breaking franchise agreement, etc. Only some of the IP has critical value. "Boy Scouts of America" and "Eagle Scout" are the big brands. Some secondary IP such as "tenderfoot", but nothing that can't be refactored, etc. Many of terms are public domain: troop, patrol, etc. ... Seriously ... not many people have strong allegiance to "Arrow of Light" rank or award. If it had to change, the future of scouting would not be significantly damanged. Business infrastructure ... collectively negotiated health care and retirement programs. That could transition though. SIDE COMMENT ... I was wondering about IP and franchisees when franchisor goes out of business. ... National charter ... I know it's honorific, but it is also law. http://www.usscouts.org/aboutbsa/bsacharter.asp "Perpetual Existence" - Except as otherwise provided, the corporation has perpetual existence." ... I'm assuming the "except" is refering to acquiring and selling property. Suing and being sued. So, BSA property can be sold, but BSA the company can not go out of existence? How does this affect ... right to sell IP during liquidation? The name "Boy Scouts of America" is immediately of little IP value as it will continue to exist ... or could exist again in the future. Does this allow a future president to re-establish BSA and appointing a new BSA governing body? Imagine a future strong willed president ... a long-term scouter and Eagle scout ... decides we need our youth outside more ... can he simply re-incorporate BSA as it is perpetual existing and he's the executive who can execute the USA laws? BSA "is a body corporate and politic of the District of Columbia" - I really don't understand why the suit simily doesn't sue the US government for negligence. Or sue the District of Columbia. As Purdue Pharma has owner liabilities, it seems this company is not separate from the US government in many ways. Heck, BSA delivered report to Congress (per the same law) and directly put it in the hands of the President every year.

Correct. My understanding is financially and employment wise, there is a clean separation between national employees and council staff. That's been emphasized for 20 years when I talk with the scout shop staff about who they work for. Scout Shop staff = National (product sales). Council staff is local.

You must be in a very small council.

Well said. There are other options though. For example, taking a loan to cover finances / legal costs that reduces the asset liquidation value. ... hmmm ...

... not commenting about TK ... It's not a clear line between passionate and financial motivation. Money can buy emotional involvement. Lots of money can buy strong emotions. The reverse is true too. There are many good well meaning people need strong financial motivation to handle ugly hard situations. My personal tie is a child hood friend. His family had strong career and financial ties to the nuclear power industry. All the way from 7th grade to 12 grade, all we had to do was say anything critical of nuclear power and we could get him upset. I'm not sure he was ever in a nuclear power plant or understood the physics, but we were attacking his family when we criticized. IMHO, it's very similar. ... Lots of money can bring real tears.

Loss of control. Loss of flexibility. I suspect that is the major part. I remember talking with a local long-time professional and discussing a camp property that might be sold. I've only been around for 20 years. She had 40+ years and knew the previous 60 years of transactions. I never knew that councils bought and sold camps over time. We always think of camps as a once in a lifetime asset that can't ever be replaced. ... Some can't ever be. Others, come and go. ... I never realized how many different properties our council had over time. The conversation was based on a local; somewhat under camp that the local city had grown around and was no-longer a quiet isolated camp. IMHO, it would be a great property for that city to buy and make into a large park. BUT, that's me. We do have two local properties that are owned by independent, separate scouting organizations; aka friends-of-camp or Camp #### Scouting Association. The properties are nice and large pieces of land. BUT, there is not that much development. Roads are rough and dirt. One had a small building built by volunteers. Another had a shelter put up. One used a trailer as a camp office. ... Great properties, but they don't get the donations or revenue stream to turn them into first class properties.

We're good. Thank you for the kind response. ... PS - I miss an older co-worker who for years and years ran a word-of-the-day poster.

Wow. If I was his age, cool. Being my age with stiff bones, I'm in pain just watching it.

Is that a red flag? Large national case with representation that can't or won't represent on at the state level? It sort of makes sense. Trying to focus on the larger national case even if they don't have resources to litigate state by state. With how these proceedings are going, victims will be in state court at some point; against the LC and/or the CO. It's interesting that some victims would need to get different representation for the state level.

Please remind everyone that this is a discussion forum. Having a different opinion or having been victimized in the past does not excuse being mean or bullying other people now. I posted a comment and was lambasted for it in a very cruel way. It was 100% inappropriate.

Thank you.

You've probably said before. Are any of the nine also members of the law firms working the case? Are any of the nine TCC members lawyers?

Sounds like a legal mad tweeter ad. #1 It is far from inevitable this will become a chapter 7. The only driving force I see is few interested in true mediation. It really seems many want to drive failure of the bankruptcy proceedings. #2 A BSA bankruptcy czar would not automatically be able to go after LC assets as they are separate companies. A court would need to rule that all these "franchised" You are looking at years of legal cases to make that happen and it is far, far from guaranteed. #3 It is very conceivable that a chapter 7 would result in less money for victims because of the order of debt that is paid.

At least with troops, you usually have a committed SM and others to help keep momentum and quality. Den leaders step up usually with little knowledge of cub scouts and little knowledge of just how much work it is. I'd say 50% of den leaders are in that situation. It's common to the point of being normal. It's why mixed programming does help. In a way ... I think fondly of the 1950s stories I hear where a den mother would be waiting for the den to walk over after school to have a weekly den meeting. Easy timing. Pre-electronics. Den meetings I'm sure had lots of outdoor run-around time. Kids then head home for dinner. Agreed. Younger cubs just don't do as well. Also the maturity these days is different. A ten/eleven year old is not as comfortable outside in nature as a kid from 40 years ago.

Also, not ever den leader is as committed. Not every den stays well structured. Sometimes the pack meetings were the only meaningful content the cubs got over several months. IMHO, it's part of providing a variety of options to help the cub have a good scouting experience. ... but then again ... if it were me ... I'd cut cub scouts down to two years. BUT, that's me ... and a very different topic.

Traditional pack meeting were Sept-May. Summer scouting June, July & Aug. We still had one big pack-level event each month even in the summer. Sometimes one big and one small.

I cringe saying it ... as I like larger BSA troops ... perhaps GSA is the future model. Ditch the charter model. Smaller troops (GSA troop = BSA patrol). BSA directly working with unit leaders. Smaller structures. Community orgs (churches) provide meeting spaces. Local councils provide the bigger camping opportunities with staffed camps. Some really nice benefits. Smaller, more dynamic, fresher units. Less troop infrastructure.

Exactly on target. I'm glad to hear your COR attends to audit the program. But, that's very rare. It's why I don't view the facility use agreement as a band aid though. We need the COs to say they are NOT owning the program so that we start asking ... well who is responsible? One of the problems has been friendly COs signing a document they think is honorific and breaking a chain of responsibility.

It's a hard balance: protecting your kids, but encouraging independence and adventure. ... It's one reason I volunteered as a leader. I could be in the background for my kids and at the same time encouraging their own adventures.