fred johnson

3 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

It took them months just  to build his confidence to float face down (eyes closed) and over a year to finally pass the BSA swim test, however he would not attempt Swimming merit badge. I would rather he earned Swimming MB than Eagle (if he does). 

I have a similar history.  My first sons took a long time to earn the swimming MB.  It was not a great experience.  With my last sons, we spent six months with one and a fully year with the younger to pass the BSA swim test.  It was weekly pool visits and working on little things.  Putting head under water.  Laying face down.  Lots of getting comfortable.  

IMHO, taking my sons to the pool weekly and making small progress swimming was one of my best experiences as a father.  I'm very proud of that time and my sons and I grew much closer during that time.  I often had to hold my tongue as I could not understand why they would not put their head under the water.  But one day they would put part of their ear under.  Then one full ear on one side of their head.  Then ....   Each little achievement was exciting to see.

BUT ... while I think the swimming MB is a critical one that really needs to be fully earned, I can sympathize with the quoted SM.  So many parents inject themselves heavily such that it's just not worth it.  I often see MBs and advancement as more negative with the scouts than positive.  I've often seen it kill scout excitement.   It's why I focus more on getting the scouts together and doing things and I focus much less on advancement.  I make sure we help and our program covers all the elements needed for advancement.  I also make sure we have chances to talk with the scouts about advancement.  BUT, our focus is on being an active and outgoing troop and much less on an advancement oriented troop.

Oh.    I'd fully recommend working with your registrar, your district exec or a member of our district committee.  If you are dealing with a situation that needs detailed specifics and rules for removing a person, you need person-to-person advice.  

If you really want a document, I'd look at a few of the key documents open to everyone.  

BSA Rules and Regulations ... https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/membership/pdf/BSA_Rules_and_Regulations.pdf

BSA District Committee operation ... Tells you about the district committee and who does what ... https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/commissioner/pdf/34739.pdf

BSA Pack committee ... roles and responsibilities ... https://www.scouting.org/programs/cub-scouts/leaders/about/the-pack/pcomm/

I wish I could find more, but BSA has been changing their scouting.org web site.  It looks good for marketing, but it's unusable for dedicated volunteers who want to navigate quick to what they need.  It's good for the first time to show everything a novice might want to know exists.  It's lousy for finding exactly what you know exists and you need.  

In your case, the Moose Lodge signed the charter and committed to provide space.  The church did not.  I also know many churches are financially hurting right now.  I'm surprised this is not happening way more often.

We had a very similar issue and it resulted in our moving our charter.  For us, one member of the church chartered the troop with the church.  The church never really felt we were part of them.  Rather they felt we were a community outreach / support effort by the church.  Essentially, good will to the community.  The church did not ask us for money.  For us, we kept getting bounced around.  The priority was with their internal groups first.  Second were their initiatives and their directly supported programs.  We were just a community good will program that received what was left.  

Our solution was moving the charter under the local school PTO.  We rented space from the school district.  Our cost though was $4 per hour.  Sometimes we had to pay $12 to $16 per hour to get multiple gyms and a cafeteria.  Our total space cost per year for school space was less than $300 per year.  We just put it in our budget.  

The only hard part for us was making sure the boys did not bring pocket knives onto school property.  We did not want our scouts expelled.

58 minutes ago, thrifty said:

A scout completed all of the requirements for a MB prior to getting a BC.

That's an issue between the scout and the MB counselor.  The SM should have no influence on how it affects the badge.  BC should have been immediately issued.  

The early SM signature is not about filtering or choosing the right counselor or doing some type of quality checks.  The signature exists so that the scout regularly talks with his scoutmaster and so the scoutmaster knows about the scout's current activities.  It is not meant to be a blocking step.

2 minutes ago, Thunderbird said:

After the merit badge counselor and the unit leader sign it, the unit leader can give the "Applicant's Record" part immediately back to the Scout.  The unit's advancement coordinator only needs the unit's part of the blue card.

The "white card" in Eagledad's council sounds like a somewhat different process.

Maybe the white card is different, but I doubt it.  The BSA Guide To Advancement only documents the BSA blue card version and says it's the only official version.  

Beyond that, I think we are saying the same thing.  The only difference is where you say the "SM can" hand back, I'm saying the process and blue card are designed so that the scout keeps his section after the scoutmaster signs it.  There is no "SM can" as the scout should be controlling his advancement and keeping track of things.

46 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

The white card provides 3 copies, one for the scout, one for the counselor and one to turn into the council. All the scout needs is a copy by the counselor.

I like our system better because the scout is done with unit checks after the SM signs it. But that is also what I'm used to.

Barry

I'm confused.  When done ... The MB counselor keeps his part and the scout receives two parts back, his part and the troop's part.  When the scout gives it to the troop to record, the scout should only give the troop's part.  The scout should always maintain control of his part.  He should never give up that part as it's his proof he completed it.  It protects him from troop screw ups.  The troop still has their part to use to record advancement.

55 minutes ago, qwazse said:

There is language in the GTA about the exceptional case when the SM has evidence that the counselor approved the badge without confirming the scout had demonstrable skills.

• Refer to BSA GTA 7.0.4.7 Limited Recourse for Unearned Merit Badges
• To make sure we are saying the same thing, the scoutmaster does NOT to ask the scout to demonstrate a MB skill before accepting the badge.  If the scoutmaster has a concern, it's address through friendly discussion with the scout, but not discussion such as "show me how to ..." or "how would you handle ...".  It's discussion more such as "How did the MB counselor cover this requirement?"  ... "I don't see how the MB counselor covered the meal planning requirement for the camping merit badge.  Where was that covered in the summer camp course?"
• Qwazse's statement is clear when using "exceptional" ... i.e. rare.  If we find ourselves too often wondering this, then we are off base with our roles and our emphasis on badges and ranks.  Badges and ranks are the tool to create a positive outlook toward trying new things and growing skills.  If we find ourselves wondering too often about did the scout really earn it, then we are creating a system that will poison scouts on the scouting program.

38 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Hmm. So, would you say then that the 2nd signature is just to prevent the scout from turning in the paperwork to the council by himself. Since I've never used the Blue Card, I'm trying to understand the overall purpose of the 2nd signature? 

Barry

 

The 2nd signature is not about "PREVENTING" anything.  It's about allowing the scout to have a signature to show he really turned it in.  It's like a carnival ticket where the customer gets one part and the sales booth as the second part.  It's an accounting thing.  

IMHO, it's a broken process when the scout turns in his part of the blue card with the expectation he will get his part back at the court of honor.  Rather, the scout should walk away with his part signed by the scoutmaster or designee as proof he handed it in.  THE ISSUE IS ... what if it's lost in between when the scout hands it in and the court of honor?  That's the reason for the scoutmaster signature.  It's to have proof the scoutmaster really signed it to protect the scout against an adult losing it.  When the scout hands in the badge, it should be signed at that moment by the scoutmaster/designee and the scout should be able to keep his stub.

I have a bag I bring with to summer camp that contains "decorations" for around my tent.  Every day I put another one out.  Slowly over the week, these decorations are appropriated by some of the more brave scouts and I find them in front of their tents.  Not really mascots.  More just fun silliness.

On 7/27/2018 at 7:35 AM, Mich08212 said:

Thats a wonderful scenario! Thank you for sharing that.   

Even that would be ok for my son.   Ive never seen the troop ever do that. Its always a ceremony.  But I certainly wouldnt mind it

We've done close to his scenario several times.  We never lower the lights, but we often add a candle lighting or similar.  Sometimes it reflects the three parts of the scout oath. 

The biggest benefit is the whole troops is there and I think that's the biggest benefit.  Too many ECOHs have low attendance because of bad timing or yet another meeting for the week.  I think there is nothing better than doing the MBs, then the lower ranks and then a special recognition for the new Eagle scout.  All relatively fast and clean.

Plus, all our COHs are pot-luck meals with the spring COH having the troop buy meat and grill outside for the potluck main course. 

10 hours ago, Saltface said:

True. To be perfectly honest, I just recommend my Scouts start the Camping MB when they join the troop (I’m also registered as the counselor). They earn it piecemeal within two years. 

Sounds right.  

10 hours ago, Saltface said:

4B. Help a Scout patrol or a Webelos Scout unit in your area prepare for an actual campout...

If the scout has anywhere near 20 nights camping, the scout has helped a patrol setup a duty roster, create a menu plan, deal with gear, etc.  It's part of scout camping.

11 hours ago, robhixkg said:

Second question, the scouts in our troop that were doing the camping merit badge had to have the Scoutmaster verify their camping nights for requirement 9a.  Since our Scoutmaster did not have access to their camping records, he would not sign this, promising to follow-up after getting back from camp.  Yay scoutmaster and camp on this one.  One of our scouts, not getting a scoutmaster signature for completion, went to his dad and got him to sign for the requirement.  Dad was at summer camp.  Dad is not a registered merit badge counselor for anything!  However, the scouts records come back from camp showing that he completed the camping merit badge.  On this one, I think I can deny it simply on the fact that the camping night verification did not have a valid signature on it.  Can I deny him completion on this?  If not, what are my options, if any?

Scoutmaster's don't sign off on the camping nights.  As such, why not trust a parent's word.  I'd be tempted to trust it.  IMHO, the counselor should be asking for a list or trust the scout.  

Plus, if I was the scoutmaster, I'd be sitting with the scout and asking him to tell me his camp outs to see if he's at 20 nights.  There is absolutely no need to use a formal database.  In fact, it's adversarial and subverts building a healthy relationship with the scouts.  

I'd be very careful taking this to the scout and asking him what he thinks.  If there is fraud or just out write lying, that's different.  But in this case, the issue is between a member of the troop committee doing advancement and the camp staff working as counselors.  I'd keep it at that level and not make it an issue with the scout.  

Plus, I think it's inherently unfair to the scout.  It's a major power imbalance.  Even if the adult leaders think they are speaking nice, the scouts will take it harder than you think.

3 hours ago, desertrat77 said:

When I was a bumbling, unmotivated Tenderfoot, I witnessed a scout receiving his medal at the end of a regularly scheduled troop court of honor.   All of the merit badges earned at summer camp were presented (but none for me--I went but didn't earn any that year).  Then the ranks...Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class.  Fair amount of scouts went up and collected their new patch.  Star...Life...only a couple of those.

Then the new Eagle was called forward.  The lights were dimmed.  SM had some meaningful words.   Medal pinned on scout.  Mom's pin presented.  New Eagle said a few words.

Ten minutes max. 

No "Eagle Charge."  No "marked man" recitation by the MC.  No guest speaker.  No form letters with stamped signatures from dignitaries.  None of that stuff was needed.  That ceremony was so meaningful I can clearly recall many of the little details vividly 40+ years on.

I understand that this scenario isn't possible for the case at hand.  But it could work just fine for others.  It certainly bucks the modern trend for the coronation-style Eagle ceremony. 

 

Yeah.  That sounds like the perfect ceremony.  It's one I'd enjoy.

15 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

 The one element that I would say should absolutely be done at any COH is the Eagle charge, administered by another Eagle.

I'm not against charges, but there is no official charge.  The charge is whatever one wants to make it.   I like the idea of another Eagle scout giving the new Eagle scout a charge:  "... I charge you to undertake your citizenship with a solemn dedication. ... "  Like what you have above.  

On a personal note, I just have never liked the adhoc repeat-after-me pledges.  It just seems a bit over-the-top.  My view is that the scout oath and law are official.  The Nicene Creed is official for my church.  The Pledge Of Allegiance is official for our country.  

"for me" ... pledges are pretty serious things.  To adhoc create on the whim just seems wrong to me.  

It's me.  99% of the scouters are fine with eagle charge repeat-after-me pledges

2 hours ago, Mich08212 said:

... but the council member said I could not MC it. I can host it but, there needs to be a script for the ceremony.

There are no such rules.  There doesn't have to be a script.  You could MC.  It's just that it might look tacky if you are the MC of your son's event.  It might take away from your son's experience.  Similar, it probably will work better with a script.  But there is no requirement to have a script. 

There is absolutely no formal structure that must be followed for an ECOH.  The ECOH is a celebration for your son.  So between his troop and you and him, find some way to recognize and acknowledge his achievement.  

IMHO, the best ECOHs are casual and less structured.  The only structure that I like to see is a planned speech by the new Eagle scout thanking everyone who has helped them.  And, maybe telling one or two ... APPROPRIATE... stories.

This thread has gotten long.  I've avoided commenting as I can't absorb 10 pages of content.  

My simple advice is hold your son's ECOH.  It's your son's chance to shine.  Invite or don't invite his troop.  If you invite his troop, it's their choice whether to come. 

I've seen it done many ways.  Even if it's just an open house grill out meal at your house.  You could say we'll be grilling and socializing starting at 1pm with a special request that everyone is there at 2pm for a special recognition of your son earning Eagle.

I'm glad to see the answers in this forum.  It's the right answers.  Too often advancement overshadows the other methods of scouting.  

I would like to say though it is a balance.  Having fun and being active are the most important key points.  But it is good to not fully let advancement sit.  

• Ingraining the habits (earning MBs, doing requirements, asking for sign-offs) of advancement early is important as the scout will know what's expected.  
• Ingraining the habits early is also important so the scout realizes the satisfaction and pride from having accomplished something significant

The biggest reason to not fully ignore advancement is that sometime between 14 and 17, your scout will have done all the camp outs and it will start getting repetitive.  It's important to have a driving reason to continue and something new to explore.  

Perhaps it's my troop, but I never minded the scoutmaster (or ASM) who with a smile would ask the scout to get his handbook and sit with the scout by the campfire in the middle of the day.  Then, just chat and review what the scout has done.  If there are things he can sign off, he'd sign off.  

I really like the idea that advancement is the nature result of being active.  Sadly, too often advancement is perverted into a formal bureaucratic process that drains the life out of everyone.

If your son is active as you say, he should be advancing.  

Matt_theLife_Scout02, Are you a scout or an adult ?  

A few generic comments.

• No troop is perfect or can stay always close to perfect.  The idea is to keep moving toward an "ideal", but while doing that provide great scouting experiences.  
• Elections are key.  Keeping them simple, open and fair is important.  
• All positions including SPL are mainly about learning how to become a better leader.  We adult leaders are spoiled when we have scouts in positions that they can naturally perform without help.  It makes us look good.  But in reality, we won't always have perfect scouts in each position.  It's part of the troop's job to educate and help them learn and succeed.  
• A key point to ask.  Are you having fun with your troop or should you change troops?  

8 hours ago, MattR said:

... parents are taking the fun out of it. ..

Message to scouters would be keep it fun. ...

It's about understanding that play has its own benefits. ...

So true.  Too much focus on creating the best scouting program.  I swear 90% of the benefits of scouts is getting kids outside, camping and trying new things. There is benefit to having the perfect troop and the perfect boy-led implementation and strong advancement and good uniforming and ...  but I'm not sure it out weighs the damage of over zealous adults.

For now ... I'd keep your numbers as if girls were not joining.  It may spin the numbers, but at least it would start off on a positive year.  Plus, you really don't know how the troop level will work in detail or how many will start.  You don't know how many packs will run with the program.  

I'd look at previous year numbers and adjust for if you added or lost packs and troops.  That's really it.  

I would definitely NOT adjust for TAY in any way at this point.  

2 hours ago, qwazse said:

BSA's inability to be plain spoken on the matter is a vice of modern management that counts media hits. It is disgusting.

I'm split on BSA's performance for this change management, but I think they did fine.  It was gutsy and right to do it quick.  Co-ed is hardly a cutting edge idea.  But once decided, it was best to do fast and get as much of the pain and anger in the past.  

IMHO, the process of announcing the decision had no path smoother than it was done.  We all know this is also a membership and money issue.  But it is also a desire to be more current and serve all the kids of a family instead of just some. 

If there was somewhere BSA could have done better, they could have been more open on just how bad the finances and membership numbers are right now.  This had to be done.  It's just hard to fault them for wanting to focus on the positive reasons for the change. 

29 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

, i.e. rappelling on the White Cliffs of Dover ...

Humbled.  Really?  Why do I all a sudden feel so small ?   Rappelling White Cliffs of Dover ?  What next?  Climbing the Eiffel Tower?  Caving the Great Pyramids of Giza?  Skiing down Mount Everest.  

11 hours ago, The Latin Scot said:

At the Scout Camp to which our Troop is going next week, all merit badge classes are in the morning until 12, followed by lunch, and then afternoons are strictly maintained as "free time." Troops can plan their own activities or adventures, or not plan anything at all. On Friday they have a bunch of troop competitions, but even those are optional. They have horse riding, a lake and pool, shooting ranges, multiple trails - it sounds fantastic (even if it is in the San Bernadino Mountains, which I personally have never found especially lovely). And every night after dinner is different - some nights they have Camp-wide campfires planned by staff, some nights the Troops all contribute to the program, and on others they are free to do whatever they wish.

Anyway, it sounds like the way a Scout Camp should be - a mix of advancement opportunities, but in a very restricted format, followed by an almost mandated chunk of free time when the boys will be all but compelled to unwind and explore. If I were to organize the schedule at a Scout Camp, that's a model I would look into closely.

The trouble with "Troops can plan" is then troop leaders often pressure kids to join them in the troop activities.  Plus troops begin to try to fill every open spot with a troop activity so that their scouts have options to get everything in that week.  

11 hours ago, Rick_in_CA said:

The camp was almost all free form.

Hugely agreed.  I can understand some structure, but IMHO there is way too much structure.  I'd like to see a return to a structure such as morning MBs but then afternoon is open activities.  Grab some guys and go do it.  IMHO, there is too much pressure from units to structure every moment of camp to get every possible experience into the week, etc.  

4 minutes ago, blw2 said:

... much more free form.... like if the kids get up and feel like going swimming that day...then they go swimming.  They get tired of that and decide to go try their hand at archery.... then that's what they can do.  Now I have my doubts that it's quite that open and free, but even if that's only half right, it still seems like it'll be pretty good.  Minimal "classrooms", nobody reading a handbook endlessly to them.

I think that is a huge difference where the YMCA may have scouts beat.  Our troop 2018 summer camp was highly structured.  Two MBs in the morning.  Afternoon troop time slots where the troop leaders were pressuring the kids to participate in those activities.  Troop leaders (youth and adults) trying to fit something into every time slot.  IMHO, free time should be highly valued and recognized as a real part of the program.  Further, the opinion and choice of the scout should be highly valued.  12:30 lunch followed by 1:30pm troop archery shoot followed by 2:30pm troop climb followed by 3:30pm ecology service project followed by dinner.  I bet alot of scouts would have preferred free time to "decompress", relax and enjoy the outdoors.