Eamonn

Buffalo Skipper I'm maybe a little bit confused. First I'm sorry I just don't see Wood Badge as an honor! It is an award given for completing the Wood Badge course. While I can and do see what was done was done with the very best of intentions. I just don't see how anyone can for whatever reason complete someone else's ticket. The ticket is a list of goals that are set by the ticket writer as a way of him or her working toward their vision. It can only be completed by that person. Harsh as it may seem if someone had come to me, when I was a CD with such a plan I would have had to say that it just couldn't be done. (Kinda like a patrol offering to finish the requirements required for Eagle Scout, for a Scout who might have passed away before finishing them.) As for the question. Yes people can be asked to leave the course for one reason or an other. The only reason I know for "Failing" is by not completing. As the ticket is part of the course, not completing it would come under the heading of non-completion. Eamonn.

NJCubScouter Is right when he posts: "The National PTA has been recommending for years (probably at least 10) that its local chapters not be the CO for any BSA units". I'm not sure if the reason is due to liability? Or not. I had heard it was due to what is seen as discrimination on the part of the BSA. Again this is something I'm not certain of. More and more public schools seem to have concerns about who they allow the use of their buildings and grounds too. One argument I have heard is "If we allow the Scouts the use of it, we have to allow others have the same access". This might open the door for some groups that they might not like being able to use the Schools. Them not allowing these other groups the use of the school might leave the School open for a law suit and having to pay the costs that might be incurred. Many groups that school districts might not want to allow the use of the schools are Non-profit organizations and groups. A year or two back the BSA did send a memo out to all Councils, urging them to move all charters that were held by public schools. While PTA's are not public schools, you can imagine if I as a parent felt that my kid was being discriminated against because I was an atheist (Which I'm not)and he was denied the use of the school because the organization that was allowed to use the building didn't allow atheists to join. Clearly it is in the best interest of the PTA and the School district to "Just not go down that road." You ask: "Who would be responsible for use charges of a meeting place, if it is not a location provided by the CO in their own facility?" While I have never faced a situation like this. I tend to think that before a unit entered into an agreement they would of course discuss this with the CO. Some units that are chartered by "Friends of ..." do pay for the use of a meeting place, out of funds that they have. Some of course have agreements where they get the use for nothing! It goes without saying that a Scout unit can't go spending the CO's money without the approval of the CO. Back when I was District Chairman we did have a unit that was chartered by a local Methodist Church. The preacher wasn't very Scout Friendly, so the unit started meeting in a local Baptist Church. The Baptist Church had its own very successful youth group and refused to charter a Scouting unit. Sadly in the end the unit folded.After the Methodist Church refused to recharter the unit. They of course said, what was the point of chartering a unit that they had nothing to do with. Eamonn.

Not One. Eamonn.

I'm no theologian. I didn't spent the night in a Holiday Inn. Looking back in history it does seem that a lot of times a lot of sides have craved Divine Intervention. Sad thing is that when the side isn't the winning side/team they feel a need to point the finger. Very often they look for reasons why the Lord let them down. "We didn't win because we don't lead a good enough life" Divine Intervention seems to have a way of becoming divine retribution when things don't go the way that some people want. Eamonn

Have you seen the price of a real kilt? Eamonn. (Yes I have one!! But have never wore it to any Scouting function - It is an Irish kilt with the County Meath Tartan)

After the BOR, the form is signed. It then should make its way to the Council Service Center to be signed by the Scout Executive. Some Scouter's seem to take this thrifty thing a bit too far or maybe are scared of going to the post office to buy a stamp? "I'm going that way" "I pass the office on my way home" "I'll just drop it off" I think you get the picture. Sometimes something happens and the form is left in a briefcase, in the car and the car and the Scouter for some reason don't get to the Service Center. Sometimes SE's are away. Sometimes all sorts of things can happen. As a rule it takes about a month or so. I'd give the Council Service Center a call and ask if everything is OK? If it seems that thy have no idea what you are talking about, give the SM a call and have him call the District Advancement Chairman. Good Luck and congrats to your son on becoming an Eagle Scout. Eamonn. (Have just read what you said. The kit is normally something that the Troop buys once the OK comes from National Office.)(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

Seems that this thread is all over the place. I think at last count there were at least 4 threads?/ Anyway I'm going to try and get it down to one. So I'll close this one and move the one with the most replies to another area. Eamonn.

OGE, The PA rules (Laws) that have to do with small games of chance are very complexed. Which is my way of saying I don't understand them. I would have thought that the pro who works with the Lodge would have caught this before the SE had to get involved. To my way of thinking the wooden coin was a "Loop hole"?? To be honest I'm not sure which is worse allowing what might be seen as gambling? Or setting an example where "It's OK, as long as we look for and use the loop hole"? I think the person who came up with the wooden coin knew that it wasn't worth $10.00 and was just trying to find a way around things while all the time knowing what was being done wasn't entirely kosher. Still I have attended a lot of Council events (In the Council that puts up with me.) Where ticket are sold, Scouts are present and alcohol is being consumed. (As a rule the adults are not in uniform but the Scouts are.) Maybe the fact that the Scouts are not selling the tickets and the money is being raised by the Council makes this different? I really don't know. I'm not much of a gambler. Truth is that I'm a rotten loser. I hate to lose. I will buy the odd Super-Ball ticket when the jackpot gets up really high. I try and justify it to myself by telling myself that I'm donating my dollar to help old people. (Yes I know that I'm only trying to kid myself and it doesn't work). However with more and more States seeming to rely on income from gambling, casinos, lotteries and the like. Maybe gambling in no longer seen as being as bad as it once was? OJ, when he turned 18 was spending some of his hard earned cash on instant lottery tickets. I have no idea how much he spent, lost or won. For him it was a big thing that once he turned 18 that he could play /gamble. Here in PA we have a cute furry little Groundhog "Phil,the second most famous groundhog in Pennsylvania" Selling these instant tickets. We are in some kind of race with West Virginia to get more and more people into our casinos and are selling the idea of allowing more casinos to open as a way of reducing the tax burden on our elderly population. With all this going on I can see how some young people can get a little confused and see the selling of a $10.00 ticket as doing the same as their State Leaders are doing. Eamonn.

Great really Great!! This past year or so I have been asked to sit in on most of the District Eagle Scout BOR's (I think this means that I really am an old codger!) Many of the Scouts are Lads who I have seen grow up in the program. I seen them back when the were little fellows at Day Camp, at District Camporee, OA Activities. Along with the Scouts I have seen their parents age. Fathers have a few more gray hairs and that sort of thing. I really enjoy watching when the Lad comes out and informs his parents of the good news. The look of sheer joy on their faces is a wonderful payment. Back when OJ became an Eagle Scout I tried to count the number of people who helped him reach his goal. The Cub Scouter's, the Committee Members, the MB Counselors, the ASM's, the guys who served on camp staff the list went on and on. When it came time for him to present the mentor pin to a person who he thought played a big part in helping him. I was surprised when he choose an ASM who I didn't know that much about. The truth is that this fellow had been with OJ all the way through his Scouting journey, he had played a big part in OJ's involvement in the OA. He wasn't the guy out front handing out badges and awards, he wasn't known for pushing him or even providing the much needed at times friendly kick in the pants. He was just a nice fellow who had always been there for OJ. The guy who is just so easy to overlook. I'm really glad that OJ didn't overlook him. Eamonn

Please believe me, I'm not on any type of a power trip. I'm also very aware that I'm on better terms with one of these fellows than the other. Not that I'm on bad terms with either. - Or so I hope! When I look back at the time I have spent in Scouting. I have only made the recommendation once to have a youth removed from the program. I have never seen any real benefit from suspending a Scout. My thinking being that what ever good we might be able to do? Isn't going to happen if he isn't around. As an employer for almost 18 years I only ever fired two people. Both of these people still stop me in the street to say Hi and ask how I'm doing. At work I go out of my way to work things out with the inmates before I resort to writing them up on charges. No!! I know I'm not ready for sainthood! Someone last week used the term "Joe Six-pack" I kinda think that might fit. My goal has been to bring this bickering to an end. Thankfully one fellow has said that he is willing to do so. Working on the assumption that it takes two to tango.It would seem that the goal has been met. Reading over the PM's I received. There has been some very good ideas, which I will present in the coming days and weeks. It has been asked that the Moderators take a more active role in addressing un-scout-like behavior. I have to own up to not following threads that hold little interest to me and have been willing to allow FScouter carry all this weight. Sadly Frank is not in the best of health. (If you think of it do please say a little prayer for him.) Many of the PM's have suggested that a warning be issued with some sort of consequence ? To my mind this would sound like a threat. I don't believe that is how we should do things. It has been said that I was very much in the wrong by starting this thread. I did use the term "Public Flogging" one PM likened it to some sort of a Crucifixion. This was never my intent. I do apologize if I did indeed cause anyone extreme and painful punishment, affliction, or suffering. It was also said that I should have taken the time to talk with both fellows and weigh up the cause of the problem. I do think in real life I would have taken each of them out for a coffee or a drink and worked toward a resolution. Sadly being what this is and where we are located this just wasn't possible. I will admit that my thinking was very much along the lines: "Nobody is right when everyone is wrong." As too who is more wrong? I didn't go there or want to go there. I do want to thank both of these fellows for their openness and thank BadenP for offering to do what I think is the right thing. Having said all of this. I see no point in allowing this thread to continue. Many thanks for all the PM's and good ideas. Some of which I will need to get the OK from Terry before I can do anything with. Eamonn.

I for one am thankful that we do have a diverse group in the forum. There are a couple of people that I rarely if ever agree with, there are others whom I like and admire. When I can't find what I'm looking for on the BSA site or I'm too lazy to find the right book, I'm glad that we have FScouter and Bob White. I'd be willing to bet that new forum members find a lot more use in the resources that they post than my normal ramblings. That doesn't mean that they are always right or that I always agree with them. It doesn't mean I'm going to stop my ramblings!! Eamonn (Is my English accent cute?)(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

"I guess the more important question is "how would you handle it" Eamonn? Would you start by asking the entire ship what you should do? " If two Sea Scouts were continually picking on each other and kept at it after being asked not to. This would be a matter for the Quarterdeck. Depending on what they wanted to do? It very well might end up with the Ship's Committee becoming involved. Sadly we don't have Quarterdeck's, Ship's Committees or the like available in this setting. Of course the big difference is that in our youth programs we hope to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. This leads me to believe that those who are doing the preparations are doing their best to be up to the task. As I'm sure you have noticed I have intentionally not posted any names. My thinking being "If the cap fits..." I do appreciate your pointing out that I did miss a good and valid point when I was weighing up my options. This was a mistake on my part. Other forum members have sent me PM's with what seem to me at first glance very good ideas. My hope is that within the next day or so, too answer all of these. Some PM's have said that the Moderator Team is not active enough and needs to take a firmer hand. At this time I do tend to agree with that. The bad thing is that when the moderators do this type of thing there seems to be a big hue and cry over it. Some forum members see this type of thing as a form of censorship. A few of the moderators have suggested that we need more guidelines /rules in the forum. As you know I'm not a great lover of all these rules and that sort of thing. I believe that the Oath and Law should be able to cover all of our needs. Someone asked me why I just didn't go ahead and deal with this? I do have to admit that I know one of these persons and do have a history of agreeing with him. I really was /am trying not to show any partiality. While maybe not tending to agree with the other person as often. Eamonn

This site along with the Forum does have a lot more information and "Stuff". If and when I need the "Book Answer" I will try and find it on the BSA web site, in a BSA Publication and every now and then I'll either ask someone from the forum where I can find it via PM, or I'll post "Where can I find such and such ?" At the bottom of the page it states: "This is a private community provided by SCOUTER Network and reserved for Scouting related discussions." If the only thing we did in the forum was tell each other where the book answer could be found, I think many of us would get a lot better using the search engine on the BSA web site. We do spend a lot of time discussing things that might not be covered in any BSA publication or how maybe we interpret what is stated in these publications. Sure there are times when conversations don't remain on topic, there are times when not everyone agrees. Of course we all hope that even when we stick our neck out or even when we are wrong, that we will come away unharmed and not beaten to a pulp. This doesn't always happen. Much as I hate to admit it there have been times when I look back that I have not acted in the most Scout-like way. I have allowed something (A bad day, or a personal prejudice.) Get in my way. Sure there have been times when I have read what someone has posted and I have allowed this to upset me or get up my nose. I have read something where someone has to my mind gone after me and I have gone after them. Many times I will try and second guess who is going to post what on a certain topic. A lot of times I'm not right, but sometimes I am. There are some topics that I know some other forum members and I don't agree on and chances are that we never will. Most times,unless I'm feeling really cranky?? I'm willing to just let it go. I do think that most Forum members do try and do their best in the forum to make it seem as if they are in line with the Scout Law. Some have said that this forum is like a bunch of Scouter's sitting around a camp fire. I tend to see it more like the "Parking Lot Meeting" that seems to follow most adult Scout meetings. While I don't think that anyone is trying to set themselves up as being in any way superior, some of us (Me!) do at times fall back stating our past experiences as a way of maybe giving some sort of credibility to validate what we are posting. No one is forcing me to participate in this forum and I can take or leave any and all advise that might be offered. At the end of the day I think what I get out of my participating is the opportunity to look at things in a different light and give the little gray cells a bit of a work out. I'd like to think that maybe every now and then something that I have posted has been of some help to someone. I also hope that my good days outnumber my bad and cranky days. As to the Scout Law? Like everyone else the Scout Law to me is a work in progress. At times I'm painfully aware that my best is better on some days than others. Eamonn.

Bob White, You ask: "If you had two people on a committee who did not get along, Would you talk with each of them and listen objectively and empathetically to discover the core issue with each?" I kinda think you already know what I'd do? Still I'm willing to play along. Lets for a minute pretend that I'm the parent of a new Scout who has been asked to serve on that committee. Would I see attending meetings where two members "Go at it" as time well spent? Would I really want to continue attending the meetings? What if I was the COR? Would I see this bickering as harmful to the unit and maybe harmful to the CO which I represent? If I was the Committee Chair? Sure I'd want to have a word with both parties. Finding the right time and place. I'd explain how what they were doing (Their actions) were harming the unit and the people around them. I'd be OK with them agreeing to disagree, but not OK with what they were doing. You are right that subjecting people to a public flogging is not the way to go about things. (Not that you said that!) I have asked both persons involved in this to not continue as they have. I hope that I haven't taken sides or showed any sort of favoritisms? My goal is for it to stop. My hope is that that it will. At this time I have not discussed this with the other moderators. Mainly because I never know when they will be around. Bob, what would you do if there were two Sea Scouts in the same Crew that even after being asked to cool it, continued to pick on each other and bicker? Eamonn.

The on going feud that seems to be never ending between two forum members is not only getting very old and tiresome, it has also become a distraction. I on a personal level think it is sad that two adult Scouter's seem to be going at each other. I can't for the life of me see any real reason for this. I'm now asking myself, what I should do about it? I have asked them not to post their personal attacks in the forum and use the Private Message area if they feel the need to make comments about each other. It seems that my request just isn't working. Looking at my options: * Do nothing. I'm sure that some forum members find this bickering entertaining. Both do make good points and when they are not fighting and goading each other do add a lot to the forum. Maybe they will get tired and stop? * Spend time editing out the not so nice stuff. I have done that. In fact I started to do it again today. Problem is that at times these edits leave "Holes" in the thread which can take away from the thread. * A Time Out. In the past we have asked people to take a time out and not post for a while. The hope is that they cool off and return with a better attitude. * Remove Them From The Forum. Sad as it might be in the past one or two people have been removed from the forum and not been allowed to post. I wish there was some way that as a moderator I was able to impose the "Ignore User" on both of them, so that they couldn't read what the other posted. As far as I know I can't do that. At this time I'm at a loss to know what is in the best interest of the forum and the forum members. I will admit that by my posting this here is that maybe they will see the light and stop behaving like they have been. I am ready to read both point the finger and blame the other. I really don't want to come off seeming heavy handed or on some kind of a power trip. I'm not sure if maybe I'm just guilty of making a mountain out of a mole hill? I am open to suggestions. Maybe to avoid any embarrassments sending them by PM might be the best thing to do? It of course goes without saying hat the easy solution would be if they both just stopped picking on each other. If they did this sooner rather than later that would be wonderful. Eamonn.

I haven't looked at this thread for a while! Seems to me and as ever I could be wrong - Again!! We are looking at 3 things. 1/ The closing of the thread. This can be a tough call for the moderator. The poor guy is very much on his own. While of course the Moderator Team can and could try and get hold of each other before taking any action. We never know who is where and who will check their e-mail when. So this becomes a judgment call. Old Grey Eagle, who I'm sure most of us will agree is a nice fellow did what he thought was best. Fact is that he was chosen to do the job because it was felt that he had good judgment. 2/ The Game. As I have posted (I think many moons back I started a thread about this and then said how I didn't like the game) It is not my favorite part of the course. I have seen it fail and fail miserably. I have seen participants really enjoy it and come away having learned from it. Even though I don't like the game, I do think that most (Not all) people come away asking questions. -Which isn't a bad thing. 3/ The Openness of the Course. Some years back I found a site for Wood Badge Staffers. In order to join you had to fax a copy of your Staff Certificate to the owner of the site. I thought this was a bit over the top and didn't bother. We do invite youth members to help with the course. I really don't think anything is done to withhold any important information. In fact a big part of the course is spent on communication (The giving and receiving of information)So to dress it up in some kind of secrecy would be counterproductive. Sure there are still some people, many who should know better who seem to want to dress the course up as something that it isn't. I have no idea why? Truth is that if you want to know anything about the course all you have to do is ask. Just be sure to ask the right person. There is still a lot of myths, legends and misinformation surrounding the course. I know people who have attended the course and when they inform me of what they did, I at times have to go back and look at the syllabus to make sure that the course I presented was the right course! I was around when a lot of the silliness was around. Some of it was fun, but sadly some participants came away thinking that the silliness was the course! Over time some things that are funny stop being funny when everyone knows the punch line. God Bless all the people who have worked so hard suspending rocks from tripods. But lets be honest we all know the punch line and while maybe it still might rate a smile? That's about it. Back when I was a very young Scout. The Troop I joined was supposed to have an Initiation Ceremony. (Today it would be hazing.) A new camper was supposed to be spread out on the ground tied to four tent stakes. While other members of the troop covered him in jam, butter and other nasty stuff. As a little fellow I heard of Scouts who were stripped naked, covered in jam and left for hours with red ants eating away on their flesh. I of course in no way am saying that this should be done. In fact I'll bet we lost a lot of Scouts just because of this. The truth is that no Scout was every left for hours, rarely if ever was any sticky stuff used. No one was ever stripped naked and most times the Scout just choose to lie down while someone drenched him with a bucket of cold water. As I say none of this is good and should never have been allowed to happen. But my point is that the truth is a long way from the rumor. Many of us (Me!) do at times fall into the trap of over rating the small stuff. On one of the courses I was staffing another staff member told me that the SM ( Who is now a dear and close friend, but at that time was someone I didn't know that well.) was "Big" on uniform in uniform. I spent the entire week watching this guys legs!! If he wore shorts, I wore shorts, if he changed from long socks to short socks I changed my socks. I send runners out to the Patrol telling them what to wear. My presentations came second I was not going to be caught with the wrong socks on. Sad thing is that we now have an adult patrol who came away from the course thinking that the most important thing that week was their socks. This game. Like it or not, well done or not is only a very small part of the course Eamonn

Welcome to the Forum. I was of course saddened to hear about the shootings of two police officers last month in Philadelphia. Working for the Department of Corrections, it seems to me that I see a disproportional number of inmates from the Philadelphia area. Many of them young men who are sentenced for crimes that are drug related. While of course the problem is deep rooted and it might be naive to think that any youth program would solve the problems. My hope is that we as an organization do step up to the plate and do everything we can for the youth in the area.

I'm sorry Bob White. Maybe the coffee hasn't kicked in yet? But I fail to see your argument. I could just as easily remove the words that have to do with Commissioner from the points you bring up and insert "Scoutmaster" or Scoutmaster position patch. All adult applications within a Council are managed by the Council. For Commissioner Staff these are approved by the Council Executive Board. Back when I was a District Commissioner, I'll bet very few people in the National Office knew who I was or anything about me. I am aware that not all Commissioners work at the Council level (I thought I'd covered that with: "Commissioners are commissioned by the local Council. Unless of course they serve at some other level, which very few do." I didn't go into detail because the truth is that I know some changes have been made at the Area and Regional level and I haven't taken the time to read that much about these changes. Again I suppose a lot depends on how you see things. It is true that an officer in the British Military receives his /her commission from the crown (At this time the Queen.) But to my way of thinking this is symbolic. As you know I'm very proud of the fact that I'm a Queen's Scout. While my certificate does carry a printed royal signature, I know that the Queen didn't play any part in my work toward earning this award. I know that the requirements and supervision of these awards lies in the hands of the UK Scout Association. Other than allowing her name to be on the award, Her Majesty really plays no part in the award or who receives it. If your interpretation of "Commissioned" is along these lines? You might have a point. Not to change the subject but I just looked at my desk and there is a Distinguished Commissioner plaque in the corner. I can't help feeling that I never was very distinguished. -Oh Well. Eamonn.

1/ Take the time to read as much as you can that has to do with the program areas that you cover. 2/ Find yourself a real pal. A friend who you can talk with. Someone who can let you know when you are becoming too full of yourself and when maybe you should tell things as they are. 3/Look the part. 4/If you are assigned to a unit that maybe isn't the best? Remember that it didn't get that way overnight. Helping them get back to where they should be isn't going to be a quick fix. 5/ If you don't know something, say that you don't know. 6/ Be consistent. 7/Be fair. 8/ Remember that you are not a member of the unit. 9/Treat adults as adults. 10/ Do your best to attend Commissioner meetings. District Commissioners are very needy people who don't like being left alone. (That was a joke. - But sharing your information from the unit will result in better unit service.) Eamonn

Bob White, Maybe I'm missing something in the translation? But ... "The Wreath is indeed a sign that they are Commissioned by BSA National" Just is not the case. Commissioners are commissioned by the local Council. Unless of course they serve at some other level, which very few do. If I'm selected by the Council Commissioner to serve as a District Commissioner, I serve for a 12 month term with the approval of the Council Executive Board. I really don't know about having a SE sign off on the application? That was something I had never heard of. I'm not saying it's right or wrong! Just something that I wasn't aware of. I suppose a lot depends on how much or how little one wants to read into "...they are Commissioned by BSA National"? On one hand they are not and were not selected by National and didn't receive their Commission from National. But on the other hand it might be said that once they receive this commission it is recognized by National. Eamonn

nolesrule Having everyone on the same page is a good thing. Knowing that everyone is on the same page is even better. As Membership Chair for the District I serve. I like to think I have helped provide all of the units with the tools they need to bring more youth into our programs. I can't force anyone to do anything. This past month was a little hectic. The Membership Committee ran around getting flyer's in all the schools, arranged Boy Talks. Set up the School Nights and all that good stuff. The goal was to bring more kids into Scouting. The goal wasn't to bring membership forms in. We want the youth who signed up to be active Scouts who receive a great program. We of course know and are aware that the Unit Leaders provide the program. You can bet when I seen that some youth had signed up in some units I was kinda wishing that they had joined the unit down the road who I know provides a better program. But that is something I have no control over and the best thing for all concerned is for me to bite my tongue and keep my yap to myself. The investment, money spent and time spent by the Council in trying to recruit new members is a big one. There are many wonderful units who I know will reach out to these new Scouts and adults; doing a truly great job. Sadly there are also units where if the new Scouts doesn't appear, will do nothing. These units seem to have lost the book, so getting them on the same page is just a lost cause. If the members of the Membership Committee are able to do these calls? I say go for it. But maybe if the Commissioner Staff who knows the adult leaders in the unit.It might be better if after seeing that a few new sign-ups are not where we thought they should be! The UC who knows the leader were to call and find out what is going on. This might act as a red flag and help the commissioners do their job better. As to FOS. The problem we have faced is trying to get all the presentations done within the time that is allotted. Many Pack presentations are done at B&G Banquets. Having enough people to do these (Sometimes there are 4 or 5 on the same day.) can be a problem. I'm not sure if the District I serve is that very different than others? But back when I was District Chair, our Finance Committee didn't have that many Uniformed members, in fact we had none!! In most cases the UC was going to be at units B&G or COH. The U/C knew the unit and the area where the unit was. So while maybe FOS presentations wasn't /isn't his or her job. It just was the easy thing to do, asking if they would make the presentation. Of course I have had unit leaders who have made the request that so and so never ever be asked to make that presentation again!! When that happened we of course dealt with it. Eamonn.

I can and do see that in a perfect world all of these calls would be made by members of the Membership Committee. In that perfect world all FOS presentations to units would be done by the Finance Committee. But as we know we don't always live in a perfect world. I think the idea of contacting new members is a wonderful one. I kinda think in most cases the adult in the home being called will be the person answering the phone. Years back in our home the phone would ring and we would pick it up and answer it. Now with caller ID, we seem to play this silly game of seeing who comes up and picking who will answer it. Which very often results in the person hanging up or being put into voice mail before we choose who will pick up the phone. As with a lot of things, how this was sold to the Commissioner Staff might be a factor. If it was just a "Hey this is what we have to do!" I can maybe see the hairs on the back of my neck starting to stand up. Trying to see stuff on the back of your neck hurts! If however the Membership Chair attended a Commissioner Meeting and explained why this is important. Which I think it is. And asked the Commissioners to lend a hand. I think I'd be OK with it. Membership does play a big part in Unit Health. Contacting new adults if only to make them aware that there is someone, somewhere who cares is not a bad thing. Of course the danger is that a lot of things that need doing do have a way of being left to the Commissioner Staff. While I'm not involved with Commissioner Service in the District I serve. It seems to me that we have so few Commissioners that much of what is supposed to be done just isn't being done and the few Commissioners that we do have are only being sent in to units where and when there is a problem. Maybe having the Commissioners make these calls might make Commissioners aware where the problems are? It might result in them acting before a unit is in need of CPR? I do kinda think if I were the District Commissioner I'd find a nice way of telling the UC's to stop moaning and make the call. Maybe finding a place with lots of phones where all the calls could be made in one night, while everyone munched on pizza? With the promise of me buying the first round of adult beverages once we were done. Eamonn

Something somewhere is out of whack! And somehow this got double posted!! (This message has been edited by Eamonn)

Something somewhere is out of whack! In the Council I serve. District Commissioners are selected by the Council Commissioner. (The Council Commissioner is voted in at an Annual meeting of the Council Executive Board) District Commissioners select the Commissioner Staff that serve at the District level. All commissioners are approved by the Council Executive Board. The SE is not a voting member and while I'm sure he or she can voice an opinion when he meets with the other members of the Council Key 3. But he has no say in who serves as a commissioner. Commissioners are commissioned by the local Council to serve in that District or Council. Now we might be doing this all wrong? But I think if I were a gambling man (Which I'm not) I'd be willing to bet that we are in fact doing this by the book and the correct way. Eamonn.

I subscribe to the idea that here in our organization, no one "Out Ranks" any one else. Each of us accepts certain responsibilities and many of us report to some other person. The Training Chair does ask a member of the Training Team to present a training. The Chair will ensure that the person has all the resources that this person will need to get the job done and is capable of getting the job done. The Chair will do what he can to help and ensure everything goes as it should. After the course the evaluations will act as a guide as to what went well and what didn't. In a Troop setting the SM asks an ASM to take care of overseeing a project of some kind. The Den Leader, might ask an Assistant Den Leader .... and so on. But as far as "Out Ranking" No one out ranks anyone else. While a SE does have the authority to revoke a persons membership this is only done very rarely. Back when I was serving as a District Commissioner there was one SM who for some unknown reason (Unknown to me!) would see any contact from me as somehow to his way of thinking meaning that he was on the carpet for doing something wrong. While there were times when I did see what was happening and did look for ways of trying to help him maybe do a better job. I seen my visit much as I see a friend looking in to see me at home. If and when I offered a word of friendly advise, he was of course free to take it or leave it. Everyday common sense along with maybe a sense of intuition (If it seems that what you are doing isn't right, chances are that it isn't.) Are what is needed for us to do the job that we have said that we are going to do. No book of rules or guidelines is ever going to be able to cover each and very situation. The BSA does provide Training's and Publications that do inform us what what is and what isn't the right thing thing. Very few publications go as far as saying what the consequence is for not doing the right thing. Chartering Organizations are supposed to select the people that they believe will look after the youth in their charge and set the example that is in line with the values of that organization. How and when this works? Is maybe something for another thread. Do people mess up? Yes! Of course they do. (One only has to look at one of the Sea Scouting promotional videos, to see a group of Sea Scouts on deck sailing with no PFD's on) Most times these "Mess Ups" are not a hanging offense. We learn from our mistakes and move on. I at times am very surprised at how very few "Knuckle-Heads" we have in an organization as big as ours. Most of us are willing to accept help and advise when and where we need it. Many of us are fortunate enough to have people around who are in the know and willing to provide this help and advise in a kind and understanding way. Most of us are unwilling to take on tasks that we know will result in failure or leave us with egg on our face. While here in the forum I read a lot about Liability. The truth is that I really have never met a volunteer who has been sued. Yesterday I was driving home on the PA Turnpike. Some signs warned me that I was entering a work zone and that the speed limit was reduced. I slowed down. After a few miles of seeing nothing happening, just miles of orange and white markers I drove a little faster than the set speed limit. Just before the end of these markers sat a PA State Police car. The officer didn't seem to be doing very much. But never the less I slowed down to the set limit. I knew in my heart of hearts what I was doing wasn't right. I also feel in my heart of hearts that I wasn't pushing my luck and that had I not slowed down, nothing would have happened. Still I slowed down. I'll admit that after driving several miles and not seeing any reason for the reduced limit, I thought the reduced limit seemed to be redundant. Had I seen people doing something I would have of course followed the set limit. But no matter I was still very aware that what I was doing was not right. Had the officer seen fit to give me a ticket I really would have had no defense. But the fact he was there, seemingly doing nothing was enough to give me the friendly kick in the pants I needed to do the right thing. We don't have Officers sitting around policing the road, we do know when we are not doing the right thing and maybe there are times when we rely on each other for that friendly kick in the pants that is needed to help us do the right thing? Eamonn