Eamonn

acco40 Sad to say this sounds great, but a lot of the times it just isn't going to work. Having patrols set off their own area is nice but some camps now have concrete tent platforms. We use treated lumber and the things weigh a ton!! The camp isn't keen on campers moving tents. All sorts of reasons: Wear and tear, not putting them back to where they were and most of all the tents are placed in safe locations away from falling tree limbs. One sure way to get on the wrong side of the staff is moving the tents. At the Jamboree the Commissioner Staff are charged with ensuring that all stoves and equipment are in good working order and are being used correctly. Our camp has one Camp Commissioner for the entire camp. I don't think he even has a nice super-duper spray bottle with soapy water in to check for leaks!! Also at the Jambo the Scouts are self scheduling for the most part they can go where they like and do what they like when they like, summer camp seems to be more about Scouts rushing from one merit badge class to the next. (I'm in no way saying that is a good thing!!) Much as I hate to say it when it comes to Summer Camp in our Council, the patrol method goes out with the dishwater No one seems to pay it no never mind. Even the ceremonies are done by site or by Troop. There does seem to be a lot of down time from after dinner (supper) until bedtime. Inter-patrol games and projects could be done. I can't help thinking that as long as Summer camp is all about individual Scouts earning individual merit badges nothing is going to change. The really sad thing is that after a couple of years the Scouts don't see camp as being fun and they stop going, some quit Scouting so what was all the rushing from class to class for? Eamonn.

Most of the Troops that attend Camp Conestoga (Somerset PA.)opt to eat in the dining hall. Summer camp seems to be more about advancement than anything else. Hardly anything is done by the camp to help units use or improve the Patrol method. The main role of the SPL seems to be having everyone lined up to go into the dining hall. I was shocked when we took the Scouts to the Jamboree, where the menus were by design "Heat and Serve" just how bad most of the Scouts were when it came to cooking. I am by nature a lazy toad, so the idea of just loading my gear in the car, not having to worry about menus, equipment, and all that is nice. Not having to listen to Scouts bicker about who's turn it is to do what is nice. Eating in the dining hall and walking away leaving the dishes to someone else is nice. But nice as it is, I can't help thinking that this isn't teaching anyone very much. The camp does have one meal which is supposed to cooked in the Troop site. Note I said Troop site, there isn't fire rings or room for patrol kitchens, so most times the Scouts end up cooking a foil pack. I was watching the Scouts from OJ's troop come into camp the other week. They seemed to do just about everything they could to make their tents like rooms at the holiday Inn: Carpets, chairs, night-stands, DVD players. So if they see the camp as a Holiday Inn, they are not going to want to do the cooking. Eamonn.

Ideas? I strongly urge you not to try and cover Boy Scouts and Venturers at the same time!! While there are of course exceptions to every rule, it is un-lightly that a Lad over the age of 13 or 14 is going to want to join a Boy Scout Troop. Trying to lump Boy Scouts and Venturers together isn't going to work, particularly if you want to recruit female Venturers. As has been said the most successful recruiting is done by the youth members. Like a moth to the flame, I have at times gone back and tried all the things that National suggests, which never have worked and never will work. The school interest survey followed by a letter inviting the youth to join, is a waste of the money spent on postage. Flyer's don't work. Most never even make it home. For all the time and effort that goes into staging a worth while open house, the returns are just not worth it. The units that will attract the most new members are the units that offer the best programs. Not only will they recruit them they will retain them which is far more important. Not so very long back I was involved in something to do with raising money for the Council. Trying to see if we could raise a little more than 3 million dollars!! I was really taken back about how little people seemed to know about Scouts, Scouting and what we do. Most people joked about helping little old Ladies across the road!! But very few seemed to know what we really do. We do OK selling the "Timeless Values" to people who are in Scouting and the odd parent. But most kids don't give a hoot about timeless values. They want to hear about fun, adventure and challenges. Once they have heard they want to participate!! Scouting units need to be seen. We have all heard that we meet in the basement and camp in the woods!! We need to go out and win the support of our local communities. Start with the CO. Participate in whatever activities they are doing. Our CO, the Elks has a monthly Blood Drive, the Ship helps out with the clean up. We also send a picture of the Scouts helping with details of the blood drive to our local newspaper, I never ever miss an opportunity to send the local paper pictures of our Sea Scouts in action. We have a new member information packet which can be e-mailed or handed to each new prospect. The biggie is getting to meet the new recruits parents at their home as soon as possible. This is the thing that really seals the deal. The parents get to see who you are and feel more at ease and you get some idea of what the Scouts home life is like. I would never ever take a young person away without having first met with their parents. Even for an overnight activity close to home. Special activities do tend to spike the interest of the Scouts that you already have and they in turn are more lightly to invite a pal. We have a white water rafting trip planned not long after school goes back, the date is by no means an accident!! School talks are OK. They work well if they are planned. We have a power point presentation set to music (Come Sail Away - STYX)So far we haven't used it but the Scouts had a great time putting it together. I do think it's important that we only sell what we can deliver. Talking to a group of 11 year olds about High Adventure is not really fair when they can't participate in it till they are 14. For Venturing the big untapped market has got to be girls!! I was really surprised how few girls knew that they could join Sea Scouts and Venturing. Sadly many of the old time SM's in the District I'm in choke on their Wood Badge beads at the very mention of girls in Scouting!! Eamonn.

baden As you know I come from that green and pleasant land across the pond. While I really like Scouting UK,it is a lot different than what we have here with the BSA. We could spent many happy hours talking about the things that work and don't work in both. But for now we are stuck with what we have. Some years back, I did ask in a thread if DE's should or should not share their Critical Achievements with the other members of the Key 3? At that time we had a few pros who were active in the forum. Their feelings were it was their choice. During my 3 years as District Chairman, the financial goals for the District were reached after negotiations between the SE and myself. At times these did get a little heated. I wanted to see less money coming from the family campaign and more from the Community Campaign, he wanted to just see more money. We can go on and on about membership. But at the end of the day we know that the units that provide a quality program will be the units that attract more members. I have seen the best planned School Sign up nights fall flat while other with little or no planning do well. One only has to look at last year with the Race theme to see something that just didn't work! I'm hearing more and more Councils are moving toward mandatory training for the top unit leader. I have to admit to finding the word mandatory a little upsetting. Being as the Man-power in at the unit level is supposed to be selected and approved by the CO. I fail to see how a DE could be held responsible for that. I do agree that a well liked DE who seems to be putting his or her heart and soul into the District is more lightly to have volunteers work with him and take on District responsibilities than some lazy toad that no one ever sees.But the real recruitment does lie with the District Chairman. It does seem at times that Districts are left out there to fend for themselves and there is a break down of communication between the Council Chairs and the District guys. My answer to that is "Have you asked?" The main reason people don't do things is because we don't ask. If you don't get what you need at that level move on up. The Chairs do answer to Vice-presidents who answer to the Council President. Council Presidents don't like receiving phone calls at lunch time on Sunday -Been there, did that. This organization works best when volunteers talk to volunteers. I'm more than happy to have the pro's take care of the photo-copying, mailing the information and making sure that the bulb in the projector is working. Eamonn.

Bearfootscout in the other thread asks a lot of good questions. I at times think that the pros who work for us get a bad rap because we don't understand what they are supposed to be doing. Here is how I see it. Maybe it's not in total agreement with what you will find in BSA publications an at the end of the day, they are what we need to go by . Try thinking of a District like a Boy Scout Troop. In a Troop we have. Charter Organization Rep. Think of you DE as the COR. Think of the Troop Committee Chair as the District Chair and the District Commissioner as the Scoutmaster. (The commissioner bit doesn't really work in this but we're not going to let that get in the way!!) The DE just like the COR is the link between the Council and the District. The District Chairman is the person who goes about finding the right people to do what needs done. Most often, he will select some one who can put a team together to get work together to complete the tasks at hand. When I was District Chair. I selected a program chair. She with a little help from the other members of the Key 3 went about manning the program areas: District Training Chair. District Advancement Chair District Activities and Camping Chair(s) I found people to fill the Membership and Finance Chairperson spots. Each of these Chairs was charged with selecting a team who would get the job done. My big job as District Chairman was making sure these people received the training they need to get the job done. Of course I don't have a big red "S" on my undershirt and I'm not by any means Superman or Super-Scout!! When these people needed something I wasn't able to give them I moved them to the people who ought to have had the know how. The Council Chairs. It isn't realistic to think that anyone can be an expert in every field. Not a volunteer or a professional. The best DE our District ever had was a female who was in her 40's when she started working for the BSA. Her only real exposure to Scouting that he son had been through the programs and is an Eagle Scout. The District Commissioner is a little like the SM, in that he selects people to take care of different units, depending on where their interest or expertise lies. So Bearfootscout, in answer to your questions "Are there trainers that I can call to help when my district training staff is under staffed. " This comes under the Council Vice-President for Program, who will have selected someone to be Council Training Chairman. He or She may not come dashing in on a big white horse, but he ought to be able to help with fixing the real problem, which is why the District is under staffed. " Is there an activities committee person I can call. Is there a Camporee expert I can get advice on how to make our district Camporees be great." This would fall under the Council Activities chair and Committee. Just as very few COR's are very active in the program area, the same goes for a DE. While there are some very knowledgeable DE's out there I think you will find that in most Councils that there is a few volunteers who are experts in certain areas. Most Councils will have a Professional sit in as an Advisor at most program group in fact all meetings. Eamonn.

Bearfootscout You bring up some very good points. I hope you don't mind if I spin off. Eamonn.

Any and all expenses become part of the budget. The Quarterdeck can authorize how money is spent and can opt to subsidize events or fees. We do try to ensure that we keep sufficient funds in the account for emergencies and the day to day running of the Ship. So far the Scouts don't seem to want to participate in fund raising events, either because they are too busy or because they are in activities that do a lot of fund raising. So the truth is that we just don't have the money in the Ship's account to pay for this sort of thing. I'm not sure if it would be fair to take money out of the account to offset the cost of a camp, unless everyone was going? Eamonn.

Boy am I good!! When we first looked at pricing the summer adventure,I said it would cost $285.00. The parents and Scouts seemed happy with this. In part because our Council had raised their camp fee to $225.00. The feeling was that the extra $60.00 was worth it. Being the old worry goat that I am, I asked everyone to add another $15.00. No one moaned, groaned or said a word. When we did the final accounting, everyone got their $15.00 back. - Well almost. I gave them the option of either paying 3 months dues or having the $15.00 put toward next years Summer Adventure. Of course if anyone had requested the return of the $15.00 they would have got it -No one did. But when I presented the costing for Florida Sea Base, with a price tag of $1,000. That didn't sit very well. The Quarterdeck is now thinking about making Sea Base a two year plan. Part of our problem is that we have a very expensive program and the Scouts don't seem to want or be able to do fund raising. For 2007 I have now presented an idea of going to Pamlico Sea Base, in North Carolina's Outer Banks. They offer a Sailing School program for $300.00. So I think we can do it for about $385.00 depending on how many want to attend and the price of gas. Eamonn.

Last year the Quarterdeck met and did lay down some very simple goals. Mainly dealing with specific things like membership, finances. As we were a start up unit, for the first few months I did most of the planning and the early ideas of what we were going to do came from me. Gradually that has and is changing. Scouts and small groups of Scouts are stepping up to the plate and taking charge of different events and the day to day running of the Ship. While getting the job done and a successful outcome are important. Just as important is that each Scout in some way moves toward a better understanding of what the Scout Oath and Law is all about and really means. Kids are never going to understand what it means to be trusted unless we place them is an area where they have to be trusted. It's easy to be cheerful when everything is going great, but it becomes a lot harder when you have been busy all day and you are the cook that night. I could go over the entire list, but I'm sure you get my meaning. My goal for the Ship is that we move toward offering a program that provides, fun, adventure, challenges, but also helps move the young people in the Ship to take responsibility for the Ship. My goal for each Scout is that they become independent, happy, caring, nice people. It's easy to guide a group like a Quarterdeck or Patrol Leaders Council into doing what needs to be done. I'll admit that for a while I was micro-managing. But dealing with individuals and helping them see that by living up to the Scout Oath and Law, that things go better and that they are a lot happier!! At present our Boatswain, who is a super nice Lad seems to want to procrastinate and not follow up on things. When asked why something hasn't been done? He either tells me that he was planning to get to it or was too tired. Trying to help him see that he is letting the people that elected him down and that he isn't living up to the Oath that he took, is more important than moaning and groaning because something hasn't been done. Still, it seems that lot of times I focus on the job/ task/goal?? and fail to remember why we are here in the first place. Eamonn.

"The Boy Scouts have been headquartered on nearly a half acre near Logan Circle at 22d and Winter Streets since 1928, when City Council voted in favor of letting the Philadelphia Boy Scouts use the property rent-free "in perpetuity." Did the Scout Oath change? Isn't the Scout Oath the same as it was in 1928? While I don't have a problem with the BSA paying it's own way. It does seem that the city council has a hard time keeping it's promises. Maybe if the Boy Scouts knew that "in perpetuity." was a meaningless term, they could have moved a long time ago? Maybe they wouldn't have spent as much money as they have maintaining and improving the building? I'm not a lawyer, but it would seem to me that the City Council does owe the Boy Scouts. I of course have not read the agreement. But maybe the term breech of contract seems fitting? Eamonn.

What am I missing? Little Lad crosses over in Feb. For Tenderfoot he camps one night. For Second Class: "Since joining, have participated in five separate troop/patrol activities (other than troop/patrol meetings), two of which included camping overnight. Most troops in our area spend two nights camping when they hold a camp-out. Our little Lad now has 5 nights. He now goes to summer camp six more nights. One year down and he has 11 nights done. He is twelve years old. He has a lot of years to get the next 9 nights in!! Do we need to be creative? His second year at Summer camp will bring his total up to 15. A Scout who earns the camping merit badge should be a good camper. Learning the skills (any skill) takes a little time. While we should never do anything to hold a Scout back, we need to remember that it's not a race and done right we just might hold his interest till he is 18! Eamonn. (What does TOBAL stand for?)

Hi sirens6 Welcome to the forum. There is a lot of things that I don't understand about your posting!! I don't understand why the funds aren't there? Most Troops have the information out about camp ahead of time and the parents are aware of the cost. Still you are all to be congratulated with coming up with a workable Plan B. While I'm not trying to be critical or a pain! I'm not in favor of this "Earn The Most Merit Badge Award" The award is the merit badge and being recognized. Merit Badges are earned by the individual Scout, they should be guided by his interests not a race to see who can get the most on a sash. However to quote Robert W. Service in The Cremation of Sam McGee "A pals last need is a thing to heed, so I swore I would not fail" and "Now a promise made is a debt unpaid, and the trail has its own stern code. If someone has made a promise to the Scouts? Not keeping it would be wrong. A lot of times it's not what you do but the way that you do it!! Maybe on the last night at camp the SM could let everyone know what a great job everyone did and have a special treat that night- Pizza comes to mind. But a Dutch Oven treat that will only ever be used on the last night of camp could become a Troop tradition. Someone could run something like a participation award certificate off on their PC. Frames are cheap. Never underestimate the value of a framed certificate. I hand out a lot. The other week I was in one of the Sea Scouts rooms and all of them were there on the wall, I'm not going to say who was next to them or what she was or wasn't wearing!! A special woggle or neckerchief slide would work. Anyone who has attended the 21st Century Wood Badge course should be able to help you make a few. Rather than doing something for each individual maybe something for the Patrol. We used a different color necker for our patrol of the month, but you could do something for the patrol. I've never done it but have heard of Troops that have old boots spray painted gold as awards. I don't go in for cheap pocket knives but the last time I was in our local hardware store they had a lot of inexpensive knives -I don't know about the quality? Eamonn.

There is a lot more to this "Youth Led" stuff than meets the eye. I'm fine with the program end of all this. Sea Scouting is much the same as Dirt Scouting only the titles are different. The ideas come from the Scouts, they are represented at the Quarterdeck Meeting(PLC) and we find a way of making things happen. With them doing as much of the work as they can. Making things happen does depend on me training the youth leaders in how to lead and the skills that go along with that. The obstacle that normally gets in the way of this working is interfering adults. At times I'm the interfering adult. But I work on not interfering. So that part of the package is fine. I tend to at times forget the really important stuff and do need to keep the methods of Scouting in clear view. Again, with Sea Scouting the names change and Patrols become Crews (no -not Venturing Crews.)But just about everything else remains the same. I don't know or really care who came up with the methods! I do know that given a chance they work for me. The Aims of Scouting do at times get pushed aside or to the back of the deck. I tend to think if everything else is taking care of it self then the aims will fall into place. This isn't always true. I know I need to start looking at these a little more. However back to this Youth Led stuff. When we cover the ideals of Sea Scouting we do use the Scout Oath and Scout Law. I bet my last dollar that most of us in the forum can't even guess how many times we have stood up and recited the Oath and the twelve points of the Law? As leaders we are also working on helping the youth we lead make ethical choices. It is so darn easy to say that a Scout is:Trustworthy,Loyal,Helpful,Friendly,Courteous, Kind,Obedient,Cheerful,Thrifty,Brave,Clean and Reverent. We can sit back and say because he has on his honor said that" I will do my best To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight. That it's going to happen. I think for this to work and if we are going to give more than lip-service to "Youth Led" We the adults have to actively seek out opportunities when a Scout can be: Trustworthy,Loyal,Helpful,Friendly,Courteous, Kind,Obedient,Cheerful,Thrifty,Brave,Clean and Reverent and live up to the oath. Finding these opportunities is just as important if not more important than a lot of the things that we seem to get so very wrapped up in doing and worrying about. My big problem is that while I'm not the brightest light on the Christmas tree. I do understand that when we give anyone an opportunity, they can either fail or live up to what is expected (pass?). When they pass, everything is fine, but when they don't? I find myself getting upset and wanting to blame someone. I sometimes forget that we are in the business of training. I can at times fail to remember that I'm as bad as they can be. When they do fail, rather than seeing it as an opportunity for learning, I miss the boat by moaning and groaning at times even making threats! Very often I hear myself saying "This is your program, your Ship" But when someone doesn't do their best or fails to live up to the Scout Law, I end up taking it personally. Worse still if it's a Scout who normally does live up to all the fine words and who has a history of making ethical choices. I really am trying to work on it, but at times that part of the Scouting package is the hardest for me to understand. Eamonn.

Supporting Scouts with ADHD can be found at" http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/supplemental/pdf/ADHDTips.ppt If the link doesn't work go to http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/supplemental/index.html The Supplemental training modules are a really good addition to the BSA web site. Eamonn

I have to admit to being a little taken back about how little the Scouts I know seem to know about Global anything. Few if any ever read a newspaper. Few even seem able to point out where the States in the USA are. Driving a van load of Scouts a few weeks back I overheard one Lad say the best thing to do with Iraq was to nuke them all. Sure they support the Troops. They understand that these Troops are the fathers and mothers of kids just like them. But they don't seem to have any idea about the why they are there. Last time I was in London, I was driven to the airport by a Pakistani mini-cab driver. His view and take on what was happening was a lot different to what we read in the press. Sadly the sound bite has replaced real news reporting. Even more sad is that the Scouts don't even bother with this. Eamonn.

Hi PeteM, Welcome to the forum. I think that SemperParatus has said just about everything I would have said. I was trying to find something on the BSA web site the other day and came across a very good presentation about dealing with Scouts with ADD. You more than lightly know a lot about it. I didn't. Sure I have worked with a fair number of Scouts who have ADD. At this time we have a 16 year old who at times can be the most annoying Lad. Rightly on wrongly when he starts to get bad, I tell him "Hey Andy your becoming a pest." This seems to work. The bigger job is not my dealing with him, but trying to make the other Scouts understand that what he has is a problem that he needs help with. With each and every Scout ADD or not is accountable for their actions. They (The other Scouts) need to know that Andy isn't trying to be a pest, but at times he just can't help it. While I think the Committee Person may have made a few mistakes, for the most part what he or she did was in keeping with the guidelines of the BSA. As I see it you have two Lads who have done something that isn't right. Trying to say one is less wrong or more justified than the other is not dealing with the problem. It is up to the Committee to deal with both Lad's. As active Leaders we at times find it hard to allow the Committee to do what they are there to do. Your role in the Troop is to provide a program for the Scouts, one of whom is fortunate enough to be your son. Scoutmasters son's are not little Angels!! But they need to be dealt with just like every other Scout. I thank God that no one was injured. From what you posted both Lad's were in the wrong. Bullying is not acceptable. Pulling a weapon is not acceptable. However it seems that the Committee is dealing with it. You might want to share with your Committee: ChildLine: www.childline.org.uk/bullying.asp NSPCC: www.there4me.com Bullying Online: www.bullying.co.uk http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/onelife/personal/index.shtml?bullying#topics Parentline Plus: www.parentlineplus.org.uk Eamonn

Hey Beave, I don't care if the Scouts do say that your a bit drippy With a bubbly personality like yours, your sure to go far. And I don't mean the further the better!! Back to the Thread. Of course it is up to the MBC. I'm not sure what preparation and what planning the Scout would have to do? So if I were the Scout I'd check with the Counselor first. Eamonn.

The Sea Scout site has a system where all postings are E-mailed out to everyone who subscribes to a given area. A little while back I received an E-mail about a boat that was up for donation. This happens fairly frequently. Strange thing was that the person posting was in California and the boat was in Pennsylvania. I tried doing a Mapquest on where the boat was but the location had been spelled wrongly. I E-mailed the Skipper in California and he said that he had miss-spelled the town, but the boat was gone a Ship from New York had taken it. I thought no more about it. Till I received an E-mail from the Skipper in New York. He said that the boat was a little bigger than they could keep at the sailing club and asked if we would be interested? The Skipper in New York turned out to be CNYScouter !! The person donating the boat had been talking in a forum that deals with that particular boat. It's a small world!! Eamonn.

I'm sure many people are happy with the way they manage things. I'm just as sure that some people are unhappy with the way it is supposed to be done. Hopefully at the end of the day we do what is in the best interest of the Scout. Merit Badges and that darn list were the biggest problem that I had to face as District Chairman. We try in Scouting to give the Scouts we serve opportunities to do real world activities scaled down to boy size. Having a Scout work with non-unit MB Counselors, can go a long way to teaching a Scout life skills that go far beyond the MB requirements. Working with people he doesn't know is something that just about all of us have had to do at one time. Phoning and making the appointment is another skill. While we of course don't want to scare the Scout, having him move out of his comfort zone isn't always a bad thing. Adult Association is a method of Scouting done right the Scout learns to work with other adults and develops the skills needed to navigate the adult world. I'm unsure if this can be done correctly if everything is done in house? That darn list was a real pain. Our list hadn't been updated for eons!! I tried contacting the first two names on the list and found that the people named were dead and buried. Some people had quit, some had moved. It was a totally useless list. Trying to fix it just wasn't going to work. We found a fellow who had the Troop Master District Merit Badge Counselor program on his computer. We gave everyone six months notice and the did away with the entire list. Anyone who wanted to be a MBC had to apply. While the material says that a person can counsel as many MB's as they are qualified to counsel, the District Advancement Committee (And later the Council Advancement Committee, with the OK from the SE set a limit of 5 per person.) About once a month the Dean Of Merit Badges goes into the Service Center and checks to see that only only people who have been approved by the Advancement Committee are signing off. He kicks back any that are not. Once the word got out that he was doing this, people seemed to get the message. Keeping the list up to date isn't that hard MBC's like all positions in Scouting are good for a year. He contacts everyone on the list either by e-mail or post card, along with notices in the newsletter. Anyone who doesn't re-register is removed and has to re-apply. The Advancement Committee does go over each and every MBC application. We now have a first rate list. Sure we have some units that have everyone in the unit sign up, but at the end of the day is this really in the best interest of the Scout or just easy? Eamonn.

Back when I first attended our Summer Camp the food was fair to good. The cooks were two Ladies, who were cooked in School meal service the rest of the year. They really worked hard making everything from scratch. This was a long time ago. Of course now school meals are offered year round so people like that are just not available. We then went to a Scouter who became the camp cook. Sadly he was (is) about the most disagreeable person I ever met in my life. Over time the camp kitchen became his kitchen. He became well known for being very cranky and very rude. The kitchen was never clean. The camp is used on weekends for Cub Scout parent and son weekends and there was always an on going conflict about who used what and who left what not done. He refused to participate in any sort of inventory or cost control. The food budget was through the roof. We had a very hard time finding youths who wanted to work in the kitchen. These kids worked their tails off. In hot humid and at times very unpleasant conditions. It also seemed that the Lad's who worked in the kitchen were looked upon as the lowest of the low. Bringing in a Food Service company, while it has been a rocky road, has meant that they take care of the staffing. They work within the set budget and the Council doesn't have to work with vendors and paying lots of different bills and invoices. Councils do need to tell the company what they want. The Council needs to sit down and participate in planning the menu and hold weekly meetings with the Food Service management team. Not the cook!! Last year when the food at camp was really bad, it seemed that everyone was complaining, but the reservation director never took the complaints to the company. Most campers are willing to accept that camp food is not as good as the food that Mom cooks and even with the best menu planning not everyone is going to be happy. Many camps have kitchens that are very badly equipped. Our Council did break down and buy a couple of commercial convection ovens, but the other equipment is all stuff that was donated. I swear the mixer came from a World War I battleship, the slicer is rusted and is next to impossible to clean. I know if were in Allegheny County the health inspectors would close the kitchen down. Of course justifying the expense of food service equipment that is only used for seven weeks of camp and two weeks of staff camp is hard. Camp budgets never seem to have a built in depreciation of equipment built in. We wait till the band aids and duct tape no longer work and scramble to find the funds to replace what needs replaced. We seem to be contend to spend money fixing things rather than making them a budget item and replacing them. Food to feed a growing Lad for a week at camp will cost about $60.00 (food cost) Labor will cost about $50.00 an hour. Our normal week at camp has about 200 campers. So the labor cost for food service runs about $15.00 per camper per week. $75.00 is a big chunk of what we charge for summer camp. That doesn't cover the cost of utilities. I don't know what is happening in other Councils? But it seems to me that when our Council Camping Committee meets to set the price of camp, many of the committee members attend with the idea of coming away with passing as small an increase as they can. They do this without any real idea of what the real costs are. I'm all for keeping costs down and as affordable as we can. But if we are going to ensure that camp is still there for future campers we need to really take a long hard look at what we are really spending and where we are spending it. I get a little upset when I see all the equipment that we have come out for seven weeks and then get packed away again till next summer!! I understand that we can't offer a fully staffed camp for more weeks (In fact we could reduce the weeks to six as week seven is very poorly attended) But units could still go to the camp and pay to use the equipment. Cub Scouts could go up for the day or the weekend as packs and maybe the kitchen could be manned by volunteers who could run it as a snack bar selling hot dogs and burgers. Units who didn't want to cook (Those who are using camp as a base for the off site activities) could book meals ahead. We have all this stuff, which is wearing out, not from use but from old age and being stored. It was bought for the youth to use. When I suggested this I was informed that if we were to do this it would take campers away from summer camp. Eamonn.

Most of the complaints I hear about camp are about the food. This is our third year of contracting out the food service. Year one was fair, last year it was really bad. Small portions and just not very good. This year we have a new company and they seem to be doing a good job. While I'm happy to obey and follow BSA and local rules. I have a hard time when Camps seem to forget that the Scouts and myself are shelling out hard earned money to be there. I'm aware that I'm a guest and will conduct myself and expect the Scouts I'm with to conduct themselves as guests, but we are paying guests. We are paying to have a good time. We are realistic enough to know that not all of our expectations will be met, but we hope that every effort will be made to help meet them. If something isn't working or going as it should, we want it fixed. Not be told to put it in the weeks end camp evaluation sheet. While I understand that Camp Staffs are made up of the people we serve, I would hope that they know and understand that they are there to serve and meet the needs of the campers. The campers are not there for their amusement or ridicule. There will be times when we may not want to participate in all the camp activities. I would hope that the Camp staff understand this and respect it. Eamonn.

Hey Beav, I don't have the GSUSA. I have no idea what is happening with their membership. I do know that Venturing membership here in the NE-Region is down by about 15%. So if the girls are coming over to the BSA,the boys must be leaving at the same time in greater numbers. I'm sure a lot of the growth that we are seeing is due to the fact that we are new and different, so there is maybe a novelty factor. I don't know anything about the GSUSA -Heck I have a hard time keeping up with what's going on in the BSA!! However it seems to me that the parents of girls seem to have a lot more input with the activities that their daughters follow than the parents of boys seem to have. In our area GSUSA units seem to be here for a little while and then seem to disappear overnight. We (the BSA) might want to take a long hard look at the way we "sell" Venturing and Sea Scouting to girls. While all the material seems to be based on grabbing the interest of the youth, because they are of an age when they can decide what they want to do. (Which of course they are!) It seems to me we need to get the message out to the parents. The parents of the female Sea Scouts seem to want to know every last detail about what we are doing, where we are going and all that good stuff and are far more protective than the parents of the male Sea Scouts. Of course this could be due to the fact that many of the boys have been in Boy Scouting and the parents know that we are not going to do anything that would hurt or harm their kid. We of course have one mother of a male Scout, who sits at home and worries herself silly, thinking up different ideas of how I'm going to not bring her son home!! As we were kayaking in the middle of no where a blimp flew over. The Lad looked up and said "Oh No!! It's my Mom checking up on me!" Eamonn.

Looks like the Sea Scouts want to go to Sea Base next year. The Sea Base web site shows lots of open dates. Has anyone used local charters in place of what Sea Base offers? We don't want to leave the USA! We are looking into coral reef sailing. Price is a big thing!! Eamonn.

OK, here I go sticking my neck out. I kinda think one of the reasons why Sea Scouting is so attractive to young people is that they can understand it! They get to use all the skills that they learn. There are some really outstanding Venturing Crews that do a wonderful job and provide a fantastic program. But a young person trying to read the Venturing Handbook ends up unsure about what is going on/ As to the dress white uniform. Page 107 of the Sea Scout Manual states: The national official Sea Scout uniform, youth dress white, conforms to the U.S. Navy enlisted specifications and consists of a white traditional jumper with flap on the back, white trousers, Navy-style white enlisted cover (hat)(no insignia on cover and identical cover for male and female)... white uniforms are known in the Navy as undress whites. The Sea Scout Manual refers to the white uniform as dress white uniform -Which is what it is in Sea Scouting. The khaki uniform is the Adult Work Uniform (page 111) We had our golf outing fund raising event today. The Sea Scouts wore their working uniforms during the day and changed into dress white uniforms for dinner. Everyone mentioned how good they looked. A mother of twin girls didn't know that girls could be Sea Scouts- Our Scouts were telling her about our program. She said that her girls weren't getting much from the Girl Scouting program -We have two more girls going sailing with us on August 5!! Beaver, I'd love to do what you suggest, but right now I need all the help I can get. The program is so very expensive that until we can get one Ship well equipped we would end up hurting each other if we had two. I'm sure when others see how easy this is??? That we will see a few more Ships in our Council. The sad thing is that most of the adults that are in the program have got used to doing everything close to home. This while possible, is really hard when you are in a land locked state. The nearest floatilla is in the next state!! They see spending a week at Summer Camp as a big trip -I can drive to the camp is less than 25 minutes!! Later in August we have booked the NE-Region Training Ship for a weekend -It's in Baltimore a 400 mile round trip! Part of the attraction for our Sea Scouts is that they get to go to new places away from home. I'm becoming very well well acquainted with the rest stops on Interstate 95 and all the fast food joints (Sea Scouts seem to prefer Wendy's!!) Eamonn.

My big problem with Scouts and backpacking isn't the packs it's the Mom's!! Mom's seem to think that they know best and what her little fellow can't live without for a trip. Introducing young Scouts to the joys of back packing needs to be planned very carefully. It seems to me that a lot of Scouters worry about the weight of the pack and forget about how far it has to be carried. The distance or how far we can hike becomes the challenge. This is fine for older Scouts and Venturers, but will turn a young Lad off backpacking for life if the hike is too much for him. We have a pair of brothers in the Ship. They are less than a year apart and both are skinny little fellows. One is 15 the other 16. One wears 28 inch waist pants the other a 30 inch. They both have very small frames. I'm guessing that neither one of them is much more than seven stone (98 pounds) We were talking about working on the Ranger Award and both said that they just weren't interested. As a rule this pair is up for anything. It seems that for their first hike they did a 15 miler!! This was a few years back, so they were even smaller then. They both hated it and the older one didn't make it. The SM called the Lad's Dad and had him pick him up. We as adults also need to remember that we control how we spend our hard earned cash. We can, because we know that we will use the equipment afford to spend the money on the right equipment. Parents as a rule don't buy the stuff that is needed. They will stop in at Wal-mart and buy by price. So of course I'm OK with my $200.00 backpack, filled with the latest tech-no fleeces and fibers, wearing my super-duper hiking boots. Mean while the little fellow has a ill fitting never will fit $29.95 backpack, filled with denim jeans and is wearing a pair of boots from payless shoe store. I strongly urge all SM's when it comes to introducing Scouts to backpacking KISMIF. "Do you guys run a "shakedown" say of half the distance before hand? " That depends on what the distance is!! There is no shame in starting off with smaller hikes (I don't like the cheating idea!!) Even if by doing these we teach the Lad, "Hey if you pack it you have to carry it." Most young Scouts don't like hiking just for the sake of hiking, they like the idea that once they get where they are going that there is something to do. Or things to do along the way. We have a nice five mile hike, which has a great rock formation about half way and ends up near to a lake (In a State Park) There are shelters that can be rented, but we normally take tents in the summer. It's a nice little hike, great for new hikers. We have Scouts who have done it several times, not so much for the challenge but just because it's fun. Eamonn.