Eamonn

Some years back I served as a Cubmaster. I was very fortunate in having some really outstanding Den Leaders and a wonderful Den Leader Coach. The Pack was set up in keeping with the wise words found in the Cub Scout Leader Book. We went through four Pack Committee Chairs. till one came along who understood what the job really was. When I left the Assistant Cubmaster took over. The Pack had 66 Cub Scouts. You might say it was doing everything right. The Den Leaders volunteered to help at District and Council events. The number of Cubs who attended resident camps, sold popcorn and families that supported FOS was high. In fact very high. At the time I was Cubmaster, Commissioner Service was delivered by a very nice old lady, who had been a Den Mother when my Mother-in-law was also a Den Mother. She never really had a lot to do but we invited her to the Pack meetings and Committee meetings as well as the big pack functions. I moved on to become Council Training Chair. OJ remained in the pack and Her That Must Be Obeyed remained on the Pack Committee serving as Treasurer. Nothing really changed, in fact the pack grew. When the time came for the son of the new Cubmaster to cross over, they restarted the Troop that had not been operating for about ten years. The then Assistant Cubmaster took over. The pack remained strong, but the Committee Meetings became fewer and fewer, the Commissioner wasn't invited. When the time came for this Cub master's sons to cross he joined them in the Troop. The new Cubmaster had 4 sons in the Troop, her husband was a Den Leader and her best friend became ACM. The pack numbers remained high, the involvement in District and Council activities was great. But Committee meeting faded away till they were no more. If someone needed a check they would call ahead and stop at our house and pick one up. A new District Commissioner came along, he didn't like the Commissioner or her husband who was also a Commissioner, The District Commissioner blamed them for not attending meetings so he fired both of them!! (Yes I know!) The pack remained strong, in fact I was overjoyed when five leaders from "My old Pack" attended Wood Badge. Soon after, the husband of the CM moved out of his home, the CM started dating and didn't have time for her best friend and they quit. The Pack started to fall apart. With no Committee and no Commissioner things didn't look good. A parent with no knowledge of Scouting was found to become Cubmaster. He cried for help. The District Commissioner visited him dropped off a few books and informed him that everything was going to be OK!! Last year the Pack was down to five Cub Scouts and this year it didn't recharter. We have lost: Approx 60+ Cub Scouts. People who volunteered to help out at District events. Thousands of Dollars in popcorn sales and FOS donations. Along with a lot of community support. Sixty Scouts in a District of about 1,200 is a big hit! While all this was going on efforts were put into starting Crews in High Schools with DE's as the Advisor's. Units with HUD as the CO paid Americore "Volunteers" -All of which have now gone bye-bye. The Commissioner Service Team which once had 30 Commissioners is down to less than ten and they spend more time doing FOS presentations than delivering Commissioner Service. We are seeing more and more of the weak units closing and the strong units becoming weak. The Council Commissioner is a super nice guy but when I ask what plans he has to recruit more Commissioners I get that Deer caught in the headlights look. The DE is about as useful as pockets in your underwear. This is his first real job and he'd much sooner be playing Boy Scout. The District Chair was as a rule serves for a 3 year term gave up after one and was replaced by the District Commissioner who drops off books and thinks everything is going to be alright!! The rechartering pack for the Ship which was due in on January 31 was left in my doorway on January 31!! This year the number of units will go from last years 40 units down to 34 units. But when next year comes along and the number goes up to 35 everything will be on track for the District to make Quality. That is of course if a way can be found to make up all the income lost from the families that once supported the program. Strong Councils need strong Districts and the District needs to do everything it can to support the Units which make up the District. Sure the program lies with the Unit Leaders, but some help and advise on how the program should be managed and strong Commissioner Service will not go amiss. Each and every District has a couple of units that are dieing a slow painful death. Maybe? These can't be saved? But turning our back on the units is one sure way of us losing everything. Ea.

Not that it's a big deal but we have always used the term "Total Available Youth". The information can be a nice tool. Many Councils will break it down by School District. This of course means that Recruitment efforts can be placed where the effort might do the most good or might have the biggest return. Sadly the number can't tell us how many of these youth were in Scouting and have quit. The number can also be a little misleading to someone who doesn't know the area. Rural areas where kids are spread out might have a low number of TAY served due to the distances some families would have to travel to a meeting. I used to track the numbers. At one time I noticed that our percentage of TAY served had gone down while our membership had increased, the explanation I got was that there had been a unexplained bubble in the birth rate!!So while our membership had gone up it hadn't gone up enough to compensate for the increase in births. We were heading in the right direction but going too slow!! One sad thing about the decline we are now seeing in membership is that we can't blame a falling birth rate. The TAY is in fact very high. I don't think the number does much to help with recruiting. As Lisabob posts when we see that we only reach less than 25% (In most Councils with Cub Scouts, about 21% in Boy Scouts and less than 1% Venturing) and turn the numbers around -Look at the number we don't serve!! I think we have to admit that there is room for improvement. Ea.

Our Council recharters Packs in Feb and Troops and Crews in January. I always viewed the numbers that came in from the rechartering as being the real numbers. The Scouter's in our area really take A Scout is thrifty to heart! No way they are going to spend $10.00 without a fight. The numbers used for Quality are supposed to end January 31 of the year, but as a rule there is about a week or ten day extension. I have never really understood why we need to keep counting our members. Sure a "Snapshot" View of where we are at is not a bad thing. But... I have attended enough Area Committee meetings to know that the Region has a count of every registered member as soon as the registrar hits the send button on the computer and Scoutnet kicks out a report. DE's and the pros have a rush to try and get membership numbers up by June in time for Winners Circle. Districts and Councils earn Quality on the year end numbers. We end up with so many snapshots, we could fill an album!! Much of the "Creative Out of the Box" thinking has come back to bite us in the tail. Sadly many of the "Thinkers" have been hailed as White Knights and have thanks to this "Thinking" been promoted and are now holding high office. My cheating was in part me feeding my ego, but it was also trying to ensure that the DE we had at the time was free from the badgering of her bosses. The reports she gave me about the Friday Staff Meetings sounded more like a meeting of the Spanish Inquisition than an organization that claims to hold the Scout Oath and Law near and dear. The pressure DE's are under to ensure that goals are met can be very intense. This pressure does I think (I don't know!) account for the high turn over of DE's, which doesn't help the volunteers. It seems we have just trained one and the next minute he or she is gone. I don't think I'm alone in thinking that we seem to put more effort into recruiting than we do retention. Ea.

Looking back over the years!! When I think about discipline, the truth is that I rarely have ever had to really discipline a Scout or a group of Scouts. There was a nasty shop lifting spree in Ireland at one summer camp! Which wasn't nice. But other than that discipline really has never been an issue. Sure there have been Scouts who have got upset and got into the odd fight, mainly pushing more than punching and when that has happened I have talked with the Lads involved and we have worked toward finding a less violent way of setting their differences. A lot of times I have kinda seen what was brewing and found a way to prevent it. Of course there is no way I can be around all the time. The two Lads that spring to mind when I think about "Fighters" are Andy and Doug McPhee two brothers who would fight each other at the drop of a hat. I talked with their parents about them and it seemed that was the way they were at home. Most times it seems that when things seem to be getting out of hand a simple "Hey Guys!" is enough to defuse or settle things down. The Scouts tell me I have a "Look" and they know when I'm less than happy. As a rule if someone is doing something or not doing something? I tend to call them over to one side for a quick word. I like to think that I like and care about the Scouts, they seem to sense this and I sense that they like and care about me! At times I will make requests for them to do something or not do something and they seem happy to go along with my requests. At times I have been very honest with a Scout and informed him that he is being a pest and I'd really like him to stop. But the truth is that discipline has never really been a big problem. Ea.

Jeff Biddle was a long time Scouter from Juniata Valley Council. A super nice fellow Jeff was /is? a great story teller. Strange thing was I was never sure how much if any? of what he was telling was ever true? Many a night my sides hurt from laughing as Jeff told his tales. Last I heard Jeff had taken up farming and was unable to devote the time to Scouting. Anyway! A Biddle Story. It seems along with the week long Council camp, Jeff's Troop spend a week at some remote, very hard to get to wilderness camp, which according to Jeff was less than primitive. One day, one of the PL's came to Jeff and very proudly announced that he had perfected the art of pooping in a zip-lock bag. Jeff agreed that this indeed was a great thing, bu asked the Lad how he got rid of it? The Lad looked at Jeff as if he was a real idiot and informed Jeff that he burned it! Jeff gave the Lad a puzzled look and said "Not on your patrol cooking fire I hope" The Lad smiled and said "Don't be silly! not on our fire! On one of the other patrol's!" Kinda gives a new meaning to the "Who hath smelt wood-smoke at twilight? Who hath heard the birch-log burning? Who is quick to read the noises of the night?" (That used to be on the WB certificates). It's from The Feet of the Young Men by Rudyard Kipling NOW the Four-way Lodge is opened, now the Hunting Winds are loose Now the Smokes of Spring go up to clear the brain; Now the Young Mens hearts are troubled for the whisper of the Trues, Now the Red Gods make their medicine again! Who hath seen the beaver busied? Who hath watched the blacktail mating? Who hath lain alone to hear the wild-goose cry? Who hath worked the chosen water where the ouananiche is waiting, Or the sea-trouts jumping-crazy for the fly? He must gogogo away from here! On the other side the world hes overdue. Send your road is clear before you when the old Springfret comes oer you, And the Red Gods call for you! Now the Four-way Lodge is openednow the Smokes of Council rise Pleasant smokes, ere yet twixt trail and trail they choose Now the girths and ropes are tested: now they pack their last supplies: Now our Young Men go to dance before the Trues! Who shall meet them at those altarswho shall light them to that shrine? Velvet-footed, who shall guide them to their goal? Unto each the voice and vision: unto each his spoor and sign Lonely mountain in the Northland, misty sweat-bath neath the Line And to each a man that knows his naked soul! White or yellow, black or copper, he is waiting, as a lover, Smoke of funnel, dust of hooves, or beat of train Where the high grass hides the horseman or the glaring flats discover Where the steamer hails the landing, or the surf-boat brings the rover Where the rails run out in sand-drift . . . Quick! ah, heave the camp-kit over, For the Red Gods make their medicine again! And we gogogo away from here! On the other side the world were overdue! Send the road is clear before you when the old Springfret comes oer you, And the Red Gods call for you! Old Rudyard may have had his faults, but for his time he had a knack of stirring excitement in the hearts of English schoolboys. - Well one anyway! Ea.

" why National would want to involve the council." ? I don't think the Council in most cases does inform the National Office. But if for some reason a request for information did come from the National Office, a Council should have the information. In my opinion and it's just my opinion! The removal of a Scout from a Troop is a very big deal.I would hope that it would be the very last resort, when everything else has failed. The decision is not one that should be taken lightly. The decision might have far reaching outcomes. Many Lads would take it in their stride and move on, but there are Lads who would take it very much to heart and be very upset. The same could be said of some families. While most of us in Scouting know about CO's and the workings of the BSA, a lot of parents see their son as being a member of the BSA and when things happen their first port of call will be the Council Service Center. Dealing with a upset parent who is unloading one side of what has happened when you don't know the other side of the story is hard and very often things can be said that are just wrong. If however the Council has been informed and what happened is documented the Council can manage the situation better. Informing the Council also makes them aware that this Lad might have a problem which other units might need to be aware of. While the Troop Committee can remove the Scout from the unit, he could move to the Troop down the road. Ed The situation you describe with the tent and the action you would take is right on the money. "Adult leaders of Scouting units are responsible for monitoring the behavior of youth members and interceding when necessary. Parents of youth members who misbehave should be informed and asked for assistance in dealing with it." The $64,000 is what happens next and who handles it. Of course because you are aware of the policy of the BSA "The unit committee should review repetitive or serious incidents of misbehavior in consultation with the parents of the child to determine a course of corrective action including possible revocation of the youth's membership in the unit" You would be happy to allow the unit committee to determine the action that should be taken. I feel sure the Committee would contact you and ask you questions to help them determine that course. Ea.

LongHaul "If problem behavior persists, units may revoke a Scout's membership in that unit. When a unit revokes a Scout's membership, it should promptly notify the council of the action. " http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss01.html Under: Unit Responsibilities Ea.

From the Guide to Safe Scouting. Youth Member Behavior Guidelines: The Boy Scouts of America is a values-based youth development organization that helps young people learn positive attributes of character, citizenship, and personal fitness. The BSA has the expectation that all participants in the Scouting program will relate to each other in accord with the principles embodied in the Scout Oath and Law. One of the developmental tasks of childhood is to learn appropriate behavior. Children are not born with an innate sense of propriety and they need guidance and direction. The example set by positive adult role models is a powerful tool for shaping behavior and a tool that is stressed in Scouting. Misbehavior by a single youth member in a Scouting unit may constitute a threat to the safety of the individual who misbehaves as well as to the safety of other unit members. Such misbehavior constitutes an unreasonable burden on a Scout unit and cannot be ignored. Member Responsibilities: (Bold Print!) All members of the Boy Scouts of America are expected to conduct themselves in accordance with the principles set forth in the Scout Oath and Law. Physical violence, hazing, bullying, theft, verbal insults, and drugs and alcohol have no place in the Scouting program and may result in the revocation of a Scout's membership in the unit. (Not bold print.)If confronted by threats of violence or other forms of bullying from other youth members, Scouts should seek help from their unit leaders or parents. Unit Responsibilities (Bold Print) Adult leaders of Scouting units are responsible for monitoring the behavior of youth members and interceding when necessary. Parents of youth members who misbehave should be informed and asked for assistance in dealing with it. The BSA does not permit the use of corporal punishment by unit leaders when disciplining youth members. The unit committee should review repetitive or serious incidents of misbehavior in consultation with the parents of the child to determine a course of corrective action including possible revocation of the youth's membership in the unit. If problem behavior persists, units may revoke a Scout's membership in that unit. When a unit revokes a Scout's membership, it should promptly notify the council of the action. The unit should inform the Scout executive about all incidents that result in a physical injury or involve allegations of sexual misconduct by a youth member with another youth member. (Primary reference: Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America) The way I read this: "The unit committee should review repetitive or serious incidents of misbehavior in consultation with the parents of the child to determine a course of corrective action including possible revocation of the youth's membership in the unit." Means that the unit committee is the group that determines the course of corrective action including possible revocation of the youth's membership in the unit." Adult leaders of Scouting units are responsible for monitoring the behavior of youth members and interceding when necessary. This is different than determining the course of corrective action. This is the policy of the BSA and as it is the policy no unit by-laws or unit rules can go against it. Scoutmasters do not discipline Scouts. Scout Executives have to be informed when a unit committee revokes the membership of a Scout in the unit. We as leaders are the people who set the example. A Scout is to be trusted. Surely Scout Spirit would demand that we follow the policy of the BSA? This is the Boy Scouts of America, not some dictatorship with Scoutmasters as the Dictators! The role of the Scoutmaster is to deliver the program. The Troop Committee can as a course of corrective action, ask the SM to hold a SM conference with the Scout and work things out that way. Allowing the Scoutmaster to be Judge, Jury and Executioner is not how we do things. All Scout Leaders need to be aware of this and understand it. Of course mistakes do happen and when a mistake like the one Philmont0406 has brought up does happen some way has to be found to correct the mistake. I'm not saying the SM needs to be hung, drawn and quartered but steps need to be taken to ensure that it never happens again. I have to admit to being a little saddened to hear that some long time Scouters feel that they have the right to be Judge, Jury and Executioners. Ea.

Contacting Lads who were interested and relighting the flame can be done. Bottom line is that if someone doesn't ask they might never return. EagleInKY was fortunate that he already had a relationship with the Lads and their parents. Anything you do is better than not doing anything. Back when I was District Commissioner, after the rechartering was done we would phone each and every Scout who had been crossed off the charter. At first the plan was us trying to find out why they quit? Later it became to invite them back to the troop they had left or to another Troop. Phone calls are not the best way of going about this. Maybe if you frame the call to the parent asking permission to come and visit in order to talk to the son? Might get you in the door? Going armed with a few carrots -Upcoming activities that you think might peak their interest might help. Telling Mom that it's a shame that they spend all that money on uniforms and camping equipment! Might make you seem more human to her!! Taking Dad for an adult beverage has worked for me!! Not only did I get the Lad back, Dad joined the committee!! A lot will depend on the age of the Lads -If they are a little older? Sea Scouting might be the direction I'd point them toward -But I guess I'm biased! Ea.

Beavah Yes! But how do measure support? Right now it seems the company that employs me has gone over board sending out evaluation questionnaires. These are expensive and it seems that because we send out so many they have become "Junk Mail" Of course some Department Heads seem to live and die by these evaluations. I kinda lucked out. I took time off when Her Who Must Be Obeyed was really ill and did a lot of work from home. The company is owned by two brothers. Two really nice guys. They created a position of Corporate Dietitian for me which means I no longer come under "Food Services". Food Service has come a long way, but never seems to do well on evaluation type questionnaires. Of course the form makes no mention of the services we offer, so we don't pay much attention to them -In fact for resident's diets we lay the blame on food service! Not fair? Maybe, but I'm off the hook!! Guess I'm guilty again!! Ea.

OGE, Don't feel to bad or sad. I'm already in hot water for having planned something else for that weekend. Some people are very unhappy with me!! When I said I didn't know the date, I was informed it was the same date as last year!! Early spring is just a very busy time. I wish we could move it to late fall or early winter. Ea.

BSA President Rick Cronk has announced that Chief Scout Executive (CSE) Roy Williams will retire September 1st. Cronk has appointed a CSE Selection Committee to have a new CSE in place by June 1st. This committee consists of John Gottschalk, James Turley, Rex Tillerson, Aubrey Harwell, Wayne Perry, Tico Perez and Roy Roberts. Cronk will serve as chairman. I don't know enough about Roy Williams or what he has done to really have an opinion about him. A few minutes ago I was reading that Wal-mart is spiffing up the Wal-mart stores. Their sales are still growing but they want to reach a wider market. I thought to myself that maybe we are in need of a little spiffing up! The person who takes the helm and tries to lead us into the 21st Century will have a lot on his or her? Plate. On one hand we have the youth who see things, learn things and do things in a different way.On the other you have old codgers like me, who at times fail to understand the youth. The very people we are to be serving. The organization needs the youth. Without them there is no need for an organization!! But the organization still needs volunteers like me to deliver the program. Sweeping changes might be needed to keep the youth, but sweeping changes might scare off the volunteers? Kind of a catch 22! Scouting has to improve the image it has to attract more youth and my days of being cool have gone cold. I wish Mr Williams a happy retirement, I hope the replacement is a person of vision who can lead us -All of us into the 21st Century -Even if we have some catching up to do! If we keep doing what we are doing we will get what we got and what we got doesn't look very healthy. I'm looking forward to the replacement sending all the Scouts a pod-cast message outlining his plan of action -No hang on I was dreaming!! Ea.

Back when I used to track membership. (Till the end of 2005) I was proud that the Disrict was serving: 26.4% of TAY in Cub Scouts 21.2% in Boy Scouts 0.83% in Venturing. I was feeling good until I met with our Area President who pointed out that even in Cub Scouting there were 73% of the youth that we weren't reaching. Ea.

"Train them, Trust them, Let them lead" A couple of things come to mind. If this is new to the Scouts, it isn't going to happen over night. Try starting with something small. Planning a Campfire? Something where they get used to the idea of the process. Work very closely with the SPL -Before any meetings. Ask leading questions. Make the meetings a learning experience. At a recent Quarterdeck Meeting we had a Scuttlebutt Leadership challenge. The Boatswain knew the skills needed, but the challenge was for him to lead it with his hands in his pockets. He at times wants to get the job done by doing everything and not lead. The hard one for adults to accept is that what the Scouts come up with is just that. Trying to tweak it or make it perfect is undoing the good that has been done. There should be time for a reflection after the event. A reflection will allow them to see what improvements can be made. It needs to be planned and is not an opportunity for the adults to mouth off telling the Scouts "I told you guys..." Try and get the SPL to delegate different tasks to each of the PLC. Then check with him that he is checking with them, ensuring that they are doing what they have said they will do. Until they get used to the idea, it might mean that if they are not doing the assigned tasks and aren't taking the SPL seriously, that a call from you might be the kick in the pants that is needed. The call should be a friendly nudge reminding the person that he needs to call the SPL. None of this stuff happens over night. While once it becomes the norm it becomes a lot easier and more accepted, but just when you think they have it mastered the people change, new Scouts bring new challenges and you end up with white hair or no hair!! Good luck. It really is worth the effort. Ea.

I don't know of a perfect way of measuring success or performance in Scouting? I don't agree that "Total membership and how many attended the last successfully District/Council camping event would be a better gage." My feeling is that the program is up to the unit and the role of the District /Council is to support the unit. A unit with a great program might not want to attend District or Council events. We know that the standards for Advancement vary so much from unit to unit that advancement would not work as measurement. I know raising money is a pain, but it does show how much support there is for the program and it's hard to abuse the numbers. I'm talking about real income not pledges. I have to admit to being a little taken back when it seems so many seem willing to suggest the decline in the Venturing membership is due to the numbers being fixed to start with! Kinda like saying that the diet didn't work because the scale was wrong? While I'll admit that I now see what I did was wrong and I'm in no way trying to share the blame but I know a good many Council Presidents who have egos every bit as big as mine. I'd really like to see TAY taken into account when we look at membership. Last year I attended an Area Meeting where a Council President was not very happy the Council had just been informed that they were getting Provisional Charter, due to poor membership. He claimed that the Council was a very rural Council and the Cub Scouts just weren't there. A look at the TAY showed that the Council wasn't reaching 10% of the boys Cub Scout age. Maybe looking at everything every year is just to often? Maybe having each Council write a long term plan which would be reviewed every three years would work better? Like it or not the membership is declining and costs are going up. Less membership means less money and the end result will be a cut in services and more sales of Council owned properties. I don't have the answers. I do feel that we need to stop playing silly games! I wish our friends in the LFL programs nothing but the best. But I have to admit to caring as much about LFL membership numbers as I do about the number of Lamas there are in the USA. We need to be willing to do a full audit to find out what the real membership is. If this means taking the hit? So be it. Once we know where we are we can start working on moving forward. In my opinion we need to take a long hard look at how we market our programs and who we aim the marketing at. Commissioner Service needs to be looked at. I know for the most part in our Council it just isn't doing what it is supposed to be doing. All the volunteers need to understand what the role of the professional staff is. A copy of his or her job description in the rechartering packet each year would solve that. DE's critical achievements should come from the District Committee, working within the guidelines of the job description and be approved by the Council Executive Board. All Scout Executives should work on a three year contract. If after year three he or she isn't delivering the goods they need to go. The goods will be found in the 3 year plan that the Board wrote. Executive Boards need to have 20% of their members who are from different program areas. Just as we bring in auditors to go over financial accounts, we need a body of trustworthy people to do periodic membership accounting. Minimum numbers for starting new units should be increased. The $20.00 fee a CO pays to recharter should be raised to at least $100.00. This might help ensure that only CO who want Scout Units are CO's! After all what's $2.00 a week? Ea.

"the Scout who must start to toe the line or suffer the consequences of his actions. After all, we are preparing young men to make moral & ethical decisions, aren't we?" Yes Sir. While there are some things that are just not acceptable. We however are never going to prepare anyone for anything if we throw them out! The Scoutmaster is to deliver the program. Matters of discipline depending on the situation should be managed by the Troop Committee. Ea.

I know some forum members have used Wilderness Voyageurs for white water rafting. Based in Ohiopyle State Park,PA. They over the years have been very user friendly toward Scouts and Scouting. On May 19th 2007 they are hosting a Japanese Knotweed Removal Day. Each scout unit will be assigned a specific area on the river where they will remove the plant by cutting and pulling it from the river bank. State Park personnel and volunteers from local conservation groups will be on hand at each riverside location to help direct your efforts. Scouts will float the Middle Yough, class I & II in rafts and duckies to access the riverside plant. Each Scout You will receive 8 hours of Good Turn for America credit and as a reward and a thank you; Wilderness Voyageurs is offering a Lower Yough whitewater rafting trip on May 20th, 2007 for $32.00 a person (savings of $25.00). SPACE IS LIMITED MUST RESERVE IN ADVANCE . I hear that they will provide lunch on the Saturday and will accommodate campers -But you would need to check. Check out: http://www.wilderness-voyageurs.com/youthpackages.htm For details. (For the record I don't have any association with Wilderness Voyageurs, I just thought this might be a nice activity for units that are not too far away.) Ea.

Having not long ago taken the LNT Instructors Course, I feel like some sort of a poop expert. In fact some people might say I'm full of it!! You might do well to visit the LNT site http://www.lnt.org/programs/lnt7/dispose.html They have a page devoted to Dispose of Waste Properly. Now knowing that you have to work with SR540Beaver, please know you have my sympathies and I suggest a good pair of waders. ( Sorry Beave -It was too easy!!) Ea.

Of course I don't know this Scoutmaster. He could be a really nice fellow. But someone needs to explain to him how things should be done and what the rules are. A Scoutmaster can not throw a Scout out. No ifs ands or buts. This is not the way things are done. As for Rank Reduction. Rank advancement in the BSA is a matter of meeting or passing laid down requirements, once met or passed they can't become unmet. Many of the sweet charming little blue eyed 12 year olds by the time they reach 15 are green eyed monsters. Still our role as Scouters is to serve these Lads and work with them. If a Scout has to be removed from the unit this should be done by the Committee, with the approval of the CO and the Scout Executive should be notified. I'm 100% in agreement with RangerT. I think the 1911 quote is based on Scouting for Boys, 1908 fortnight series: " A SCOUT'S HONOUR IS TO BE TRUSTED. If a scout says "On my honour it is so," that means that it is so, just as if he had taken a most solemn oath. Similarly, if a scout officer says to a scout, "I trust you on your honour to do this," the scout is bound to carry out the order to the very best of his ability, and to let nothing interfere with his doing so. If a scout were to break his honour by telling a lie, or by not carrying out an order exactly when trusted on his honour to do so, he would cease to be a scout, and must hand over his scout badge, and never be allowed to wear it again--he loses his life. I see "the scout is bound to carry out the order to the very best of his ability" As being a big difference. By about 1911 the British Boy Scouts Association had changed it slightly: If a Scout says, "on my honour it is so," that means that it is so, just as if he had taken a most solemn oath. Similarly, if a Scout Officer says to a Scout, "I trust you on your honour to do this," the Scout is bound to carry out the order to the very best of his ability, and to let nothing interfere with his doing so. If a Scout were to break his honour by telling a lie, or by not carrying out an order exactly when trusted on his honour to do so, he may be directed to hand over his Scout Badge, and never wear it again. He may also be directed to cease to be a Scout. This is addressing the removal of a Scout not a Rank reduction. Ea

Wow!! I thought for a minute my house had been bugged!! We have had some nasty weather and "Slow, slow, slow" Sounds like the sermon I have been preaching to OJ!! Ea.

Sorry to dig this one up again. This event is still on the calendar. The date was changed (Put back 2 weeks) because it clashed with a Quest weekend. A month ago I send an E-mail to the person I thought was in charge, asking what had been done? He replied that there had been a meeting of 3 or 4 people back in December and the DE was organizing things. Three weeks ago I send an E-mail asking: Where the participants would sleep (Do we need to bring tents?) and how would they be fed? I never did get a reply!! I looked in at the Scout Service Center and by chance the DE was there. I asked why he hadn't replied to my E-mail? He said he was waiting to hear from the committee. My problem now is that the Ship is really busy in April and May. We have the Regatta in May which we train for, we have boats that need to be got ready for the water and a fund raising event. Add to all this the fact that this event really has nothing to offer us and I really don't want to go!! The event is the weekend after an OA weekend, so I'm almost certain that someone will rally the older Boy Scouts and get enough of them to turn out to make up the numbers. I kinda feel that I'm expected to attend. But I think if I do that I'm going to be more of a pain than an asset!! So I'm not going. I'm sure this will yet again be seen as my not supporting the District / Council. But I'm still not going. Ea.

I'm very unhappy to see the decline in our membership. I do however feel that maybe some of the pros are getting a bad rap!! Some of the fixes that have been used have come from volunteers. While I'm not proud to admit it, I'm guilty of a little fixing myself. Back when I was a member of our District key 3, reaching Quality District was very important and I put a lot of time and effort into trying to make sure we reached the goal. Back then a district had to meet a financial goal and a membership goal. The membership goal was to be plus one unit and either show a percentage growth (I can't remember if it was 5%?) Or be plus one in each section. We always seemed to have a hard time recruiting Boy Scouts. One year we had met all the goals but were 3 Boy Scouts short. The deadline was sometime in the first week in January. So I met with a friendly Cubmaster, who had a Den of Webelos crossing over in February, he took the Boy Scout apps to the parents and we moved four of them into Boy Scouts. The District was a Quality District. Another year we needed a unit, so I talked with a friendly Boy Scout Troop, who had mentioned that they had an interest in Venturing, within 3 days all the paper work was done. Sadly the Crew only lasted a year and was gone. While at the time I tried to ease my conscience by telling myself that everything was "Legal". The applications and the paper work were real and all in order. I know deep down I was allowing my ego to get the better of me. Sometimes it's not the pros who are up half the night making devious plans. It is the volunteers. Ea.

Me thinks the time to take this SM behind the wood shed is now!! Ea.

RangerT I posted 11 points which points are at fault? I think I understand a fair bit about how the book says Venturing could or should work. One reason I opted to be in Sea Scouting was because I didn't have to work at trying to understand the program. I'll admit to not being an out of the box type thinker!! A pal of mine used to lead an Explorer Post. He works for NASA. His great love is radio. The post was a Radio post, when Venturing came along it became a Crew. In fact very little changed. We have at the hospital where Her Who Must Be Obeyed works an Exploring Post which has been there for about 25 years. It is happy to be a Post and Exploring would seem to be the right place for it. In our District we have the best Venturing Crew in the Council. The Advisor is an ex-scouter, he works as a teacher full time and at the local Caverns part time. The Crew meets as a School Club during school time. It is youth led the minutes of their meetings are posted on their web site. They do a lot of outdoor activities: bike hikes, camping, caving , rappelling. They ring the bell for the Salvation Army over the holiday. I'm not sure what or if they have a uniform. I have yet to see a green shirt and I've never heard about any advancements. Crew 111 seems to me to be a good Crew. Still Crew 111 came to be because Troop 111 folded and much of what they do is very much the same as Troop 111 used to do. The Advisor was a ASM in Troop 111. They are now coed, the school only lets them meet once a month where the Troop used to meet weekly. As far as I know they in the 3 years they have been around have never held a Super Activity or long term call it what you want! I'd use Camp. This could be because the youth don't want one? When I look at them I can't help but notice that their foundation is from the Boy Scout program. Still it makes no matter as the youth don't give a care about the foundation they seem happy doing what they are doing. I think the Crew is doing a good job meeting the needs of the youth. They run the Crew with elected officers. The youth plan and organize the activities. But all of this was happening when Troop 111 was one of the better Troops in the District. Why it folded? Is for another thread. I'm not sure if what they do should be called High Adventure? I'm unsure if they fit nicely into any of the Specialty Areas? Gary their Advisor didn't rush into starting the Crew, in fact it took me almost 3 years to talk him into it. When he did, he didn't leave his comfort zone, he didn't try to reinvent the wheel. He took what he was good at and tweaked it to work for the youth in the school where he works. Sadly he retires this year and I don't know what will become of the Crew. It has more than 40 members. Who knows maybe they will want to see about Sea Scouting? Ea.

I don't see this thread being about rules. I see it being about telling the truth. I cringe when I hear a parent tell a very young child "Be good or the policeman will arrest you". Scoutmasters tell Scouts they have to travel in uniform in order to be insured. This is not telling the truth. The BSA working with people and organizations have come up with guidelines and rules that will keep the kids we serve safe. But when we build a pioneering tower higher than the BSA safe height, I'm guilty of breaking the rule and maybe not keeping or working within the Scout Oath and Law. I am still covered by the BSA insurance. If a Scout was hurt I would be covered. Depending on a few things the local Scout Exec. might deem that because I am unwilling to play by the rules I'm too much of a liability and revoke my BSA membership. In over 20 years with our Council I have never seen this happen. I'm not saying we should ignore the rules. I'm saying we need to tell the truth. Trainers and old timers like me need to at times say that we just don't know the answer to each and every question. Not come up with make believe answers. There is no boogie man and he isn't going to get you! Ea.