Eamonn

Very often, when people start asking for copies of rules, by-laws and charts it is because they are unhappy with the organization that holds the charter. I of course don't know if that is the case here? Most of the times having all this information doesn't help and isn't of much use. As a new Committee Chair, you will have a very loud voice in trying to change things and make them better. Start by getting a copy of the charter. The name and contact information of the COR is listed. Give him a call and invite him to the next committee meeting. While you have him on the phone you can find out how interested he really is in being the COR. Let him know that you as the CC really want to improve the relationship that the pack has with the CO. How you feel that the pack needs to play a more visible and active role and how you are depending on him to be the link-man to make this happen. If he tells you that he is too busy or isn't really interested. You should find a way of telling him that this just isn't acceptable, that the Pack needs a working COR. After the call if he isn't interested, would be the time to call the Unit Commissioner (call him anyway!!) Explain what is going on. All the time explaining that your goal is to improve the relationship with the CO. If he is a good commissioner, he will make an appointment to see the Executive Officer or he will inform the District Commissioner and the DE and one of these fine people will visit the Executive Officer. If the COR has to be replaced they can bring it up at that meeting, they might invite you? All the time your goal has to be trying to make things better. If you go armed and ready with a list of what the CO isn't doing for you, things are not going to go well. If you go with a list of good turns that the Pack would like to do for the CO things will go better and you can kinda slip in a couple of things that the Pack needs. Get organized!! Hold the Pack Management Committee meetings the same time each month, invite the COR to each and every meeting. Provide him with a list to give to the Executive Officer or the Church Council. List how many boys are in the pack, how many went to camp, outing that the pack went on, how many boys advanced, if you can find out how many ex-cub scouts have gone on to earn Eagle or reached some other goal. You want the CO to feel that their pack is something which they can be proud of. To make this happen you will need the help and support of the Cubmaster and the Den Leaders. You might have to work at overcoming any negative feelings they might hold. If none of this works and it might not work!! You can then explore finding a new CO. In most cases the people who serve at the District and Council level will want to do everything that they can to keep a unit where it is. Even at the expense of losing a few volunteers. Eamonn.

Back when I was a Scout in England it seemed that the qualifications to be Chief Scout in the UK, were that you had to have a title. (Lord someone was a big help!) And you had to look good in a kilt. Sadly even though I have great looking knees, the Queen seems to have by-passed me when it comes to mentioning my name on the honors list. When the post became vacant a couple of years back, they choose a guy who had been a host of a Saturday morning TV show aimed at teenagers and had earned a name for himself for being an "Action man." Since becoming Chief Scout, he has introduced celebrity soccer games played at Gilwell Park. Youngsters know who he is and have some idea what he stands for. I wonder how many of our BSA Scouts could name any one from the National key 3? I can't help thinking that here in the USA, we seem more concerned about pulling in corporate dollars than having people in office that anyone really knows. If that is a good or bad thing? I really don't know!! Eamonn.

I'm a little unsure which chart you are looking for? The link OGE has provided does a good job of showing how a pack should be /might be set up. If you want to find out more about the District, Council, Area, Regional and National organization attending the Trainings and reading the materials on the web sites and in your local Service Center will help. One sure way to find out who is who and who does what? is to attend your District Monthly Roundtable meeting. There you should get to meet the people in the District that are the people who are in the know and who are known for making things happen. You might want to get the name and number of your District Training Chairman. If you call your Council Service Center they should be able to provide it. Eamonn.

We kinda, sorta tried this at the 2005 National Jamboree. I meet a few fellow forum members. Sadly not very many. While a lot can be said for poor planning, bad communication, I know for my part I seen my role at the Jambo as serving the Scouts I had with me. The guys /girls that were on staff were busy doing their jobs. So it never really got off the ground. I have never really looked at where the greatest number of forum members hail from? But I somehow think even if they were all close I would if I had an extra weekend, spend the time with the Scouts in the Ship rather than attend a reunion. I'm not sure if I will be at the 2010 Jamboree? At this time I think its un-lightly. However I think this would be the time and place to try and meet other forum members. If someone wanted to come up with a time and a location. Eamonn.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

Thank You. Eamonn

I never seen the movie. I don't know about blue pills? But I have heard a lot !! Think it's best I stop there. Eamonn.

I like kids, I enjoy the time I get to spend with them and I learn a lot from them. Of course each and every Scout is an individual. Each has strengths and weaknesses. For the sake of this thread, I'm going to divide them into two groups. Group A. I'm going to call the Good Kids. I was going to call them The Preacher's Kids but I had second thoughts. There is nothing wrong with being a good kid. I think many of us over the years have had a few. You know the Scout who is never late, always spic and span and has brains to burn. The other group B. I'm going to all the not so good kids. I was going to call them little devils, but again I had second thoughts. These are the Scouts who even when they do arrive in full uniform look like they have been through a hedge, shirt tail is hanging out and traces of whatever they ate last can still be found around their mouth. They never really do anything that bad, but when they do are not clever enough not to get caught. Still they accept being caught as a "Fair cop". Am I just a real odd-ball? Of the two groups I really like working with Group B. The not so good kids more than Group A. The Good kids. Eamonn.

I have no problem reading what is on the page. As I posted meeting a requirement where is a skill has to be shown is easy -You can do it or you can't. However when it comes to Scout Spirit -Living by the Scout Oath and Law; who sets the standard? Is there a standard? I think this is where the "Do my best" comes into play. Lord knows we all fail to live by the oath and law. Some of us have a harder time than others living the oath and law. But the oath doesn't say I will it states I will do my best. Surely at the end of the day only the person who has ownership of his best knows if he really has given it? Eamonn.

Kudu, While I'm not keen on the Worksheet Idea, I do like the thinking behind it. I like to think that I as a leader go out of my way to find interesting and fun ways to pass on skills to the Scouts I serve. Of course it doesn't always work!! But I like to think at least I tried!! Having a Scout learn a skill to meet a requirement at the end of the day comes down to can he meet what is required or can't he? Has he the time required or not? In most cases a simple yes or no is all that is required. As a Scouter I find it really hard (Please I'm now talking about my personal feelings -nothing else. So there is no right or wrong!!) to evaluate what "Do My best" really means. We have one Lad in the Ship who if he were to stop clowning around could do just about anything he wanted. I know that at times he wants to stop clowning around but just doesn't seem able. Yet all the clowning around prevents him from doing what he is able to do. When I talk with him about this he tells me that he just can't help clowning around. As it happens he is a nice kid and while at times his clowning can be a nuisance, it is never harmful. He will in time have to learn that he needs to control it. From my point of view, I see his potential, I also see his actions (the clowning) but I have no real idea if he really is doing his best to control his actions. His "Best" is his. The only person who will ever know if he really is giving his best is him. Eamonn.

I agree 100% with those who have posted about making knots a tool that Scouts will use and will have some value or meaning to them. At the back of our meeting room I have a plank of wood about eight foot long with holes drilled in it through the holes we added good quality line, above the hole is the name of a knot or hitch. (There are two ropes for joining knots) and a broom stick hangs under for the hitches and a cleat for the cleat hitch.) We added a cheap stop watch from wal-mart. The challenge is to be able to tie the 20 knots correctly in under 3 minutes. We started this as a Ship activity and it went so-so. But just having it there for them to use when the want too, seems to work a lot better. Very often after a meeting a few of them will get into it and I'm late getting home because we have got into a knot session. Having it set up means we never have to look for rope or line. Having the knots named means that they don't just tie the knots they know they can tie. If a Scout claims to have tied all the knots faster than the last Scout and we have time the two of them can race against each other. I have to admit to being a little surprised about how interested the Scouts are in this and how well the guys who can tie tie the knots teach the other Scouts. Eamonn.

Hp, ho, ho -Merry Christmas to all!! If you are still looking for a last minute gift? Neiman Marcus in their Christmas book has the Virgin Galactic Charter To Space. Priced at $1,764,000.00, you might have to go and win a couple of million on what seems to be a glut of new TV quiz shows, before you stuff it in my stocking. Have a wonderful and safe holiday. Eamonn. http://www.neimanmarcus.com/store/sitelets/christmasbook/fantasy.jhtml?cid=OCBF7_NMO2199&gid=&/catalog

"What is more important: the rules or the boy?" From what I've read in this thread that doesn't seem to be the real question!! Like our good friend Beavah, I have attended a good many international Scouting events. In fact I served for almost ten years or so as Scout Leader (SM) in the UK. I do not consider myself to be an expert on international Scouting. I like to think that each and every Scout organization /association wants and is dedicated to helping all young people fulfill their potential and become confident, responsible citizens. How they go about doing this is different from country to country. This doesn't make one better than the other or one right and the others wrong -It's just the way they do things. As a Scouter in England I delivered the program following their rules (Policy, organization of the scout association) They do a lot of things very differently than the BSA. Some it seemed to me better than the BSA and some worse. Why each country does things differently? Could be discussed in another thread. I will admit when I first came over to the USA as a very young English Scout Leader to work as an International Camp Counselor, I didn't know the workings of the BSA and found a lot of what the BSA did as being very odd. I think at the time I was also guilty of a certain amount of "Home Country Pride". I knew that I was only going to be here for about 3 months, I never took the time to find out how the BSA worked and then at that time it really didn't matter as I had no plans of ever returning. (Little did I know that seven years later things would change.) When I did move over here and did get involved with being a member of the BSA; my overall intend was much the same as it was when I was a member of the Scout Association. But the rules were different. Both the Scout Association and the BSA are in the "Business" of serving young people, but they each have their own way of doing so. Both programs are designed to meet the needs of the youth they serve. When followed I fail to see how the programs can hurt or harm a youth member. Youth members get harmed or hurt when leaders choose to not follow the program and start making up their own rules. So, maybe the question should be not:"What is more important: the rules or the boy?" But " What is more important the program or the rules that an adult leader makes up and imposes on the youth members ?" A little Lad joining a BSA Boy Scout Troop is taught the Scout Oath and Law. TRUSTWORTHY A Scout tells the truth. He keeps his promises. Honesty is part of his code of conduct. People can depend on him. I think the BSA is depending on the adults to deliver the program as it is laid out in BSA publications and material. LOYAL A Scout is true to his family, Scout leaders, friends, school, and nation. When we take it upon ourselves to not be true to the program, we are in fact being disloyal. HELPFUL A Scout is concerned about other people. He does things willingly for others without pay or reward. Not following the program shows lack of concern for the Scout and is not helpful. KIND A Scout understands there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. He does not hurt or kill harmless things without reason. A good many of these Program Adaptations end up hurting the Scouts and are not kind. OBEDIENT A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobey them. Some will say that these Program Adaptations fall under the heading of some sort of Civil disobedience? This is not trying to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobey them. CHEERFUL A Scout looks for the bright side of things. He cheerfully does tasks that come his way. He tries to make others happy. Surely we have an obligation to cheerfully take on the task of delivering the program? THRIFTY A Scout works to pay his way and to help others. He saves for unforeseen needs. He protects and conserves natural resources. He carefully uses time and property. Doing things the wrong way is not using time or resources wisely. BRAVE A Scout can face danger even if he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at or threaten him. Standing up for the values of the program can at times take guts. CLEAN A Scout keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He goes around with those who believe in living by these same ideals. He helps keep his home and community clean. When we set the ideals of Scouting to one side, what sort of example are we setting? REVERENT A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others. Even if I believe the people who are guilty of these Program Adaptations and I personally think that they are in the wrong. I still can respect their view and would hope that they would return the favor!! I see the program as being there to serve the youth members and help meet their needs. Sadly at times I see these adaptations, no mater what the intention was or is, as some sort of adult arrogant ego trip or at times a real lack of understanding the program. Eamonn (This message has been edited by Eamonn)

"That means a crew must do Eagle prep, Ranger prep and special interest prep." What is this prep? Eamonn

A very popular yell at Campfires in the UK is: "Oggy, oggy, oggy." Reply: "Ohi, Ohi,ohi" A lot more oggy's and Ohi's go on!! What most Scouts don't know is that this was in fact a call to Lunch. The Cornish Pastie (an Oggy) is the original packed lunch for the Cornish tin miners. A meat savoury through most of it, it was sweet at one end and the crimped pastry formed a handle that could be used by the men with dirty hands. I thought that Americans changed our Oggy to a hoagie!! A well made oggy is a thing of sheer bliss!! Eamonn.

"The boys are more than welcome to start a yahoo group of their own. Not a problem, easy to do and any boy in the troop wishing to do that is okay with all the leadership of the troop." Sounds great. But what happens when the leadership finds out a Scout has a site on which he has listed all the things he find fault with and is complaining? What happens when a group of Scouts all post how unhappy they are? Eamonn.

" If you are a registered scout when you want to join, you are required to stay with your troop and Eagle out." I fail to see the choice? However, before we take on any crew members from other troops they make the choice to follow that rule. It is enforced by the boy himself. So what you are in fact saying is that all Venturers who want to work toward Eagle have to do so with a Troop -The only way to meet the First class requirement is with a Troop. Again I don't see the choice. "While technically you are correct " There is nothing technical about it!! It is the way the program is written. I'm sorry Beavah, your harping on about the arrangements that the BSA has with the LDS, is getting really old. Of course he can enforce the rule, just as some units enforce wearing camo pants, retesting at BOR AND 101 other things that really shouldn't be enforced. But this is not how things should be done or how the program is supposed to be delivered. Denying a member of the BSA the right to work toward earning his Eagle in a Crew or Ship, if he has met the other requirements is just plain wrong. There could be a myriad of reasons why the Lad might not want to stay with a Troop. Allowing Crew Advisor's to make up their own rules is not the way things are done. All of our Chartering Organizations are represented by the members of the Relationship's Committee who sit on the National Council, if a group of CO's feel that changes are needed to the program, they have a voice there. Eamonn.

Back in the day. Before the new course, the final approval for Tickets came from the Scoutmaster or Cubmaster. Now the final word comes from the TG. It is however up to the Course Director to develop his staff. Once again back in the day. Staff members wrote tickets -I never thought they were very important but they did offer the CD an insight to how each staff member seen things. I'm a little unsure if a Ticket item that seemed to have little to do with the position that the ticket writer served in, would ever pass. Participants are to write their Tickets about their primary registered position. Having TG's who understand the entire process is vital. Having tickets that really do work toward the participants Vision and Mission and are not just a list of random ideas and goals, is in many ways up to the TG. Some of us did see the web site in question. We don't know what thinking went behind it? If it was some kind of a "Dry Run"? Along the lines of : "I'm going to learn how to make a web site that will improve the communication within the unit I serve" That might be OK. In that case, the content of the site really doesn't matter - As far as the ticket goes. Eamonn.

jblake47 I hate to be disagreeable. But ..... " We simply solved the problem with our first rule. If you are a registered scout when you want to join, you are required to stay with your troop and Eagle out." You don't have the authority to enforce this rule. The choice is up to the youth. He can continue to work toward Eagle Scout while not being a member of a Boy Scout Troop. So long as while he was a Boy Scout he reached First Class. If he has never been a Scout, he would never have reached First Class and can not work toward Eagle Scout Rank, without joining a Troop and earning First Class there. Craig Your Son has a lot of choices. *He can remain in the Troop and complete his Eagle there. *He can join the Venturing Crew or Sea Scout Ship and opt to complete his Eagle Scout requirements there, while still remaining a member of the Troop. *He can leave the Troop and just be a Venturer or Sea Scout and finish the requirements there. *He can remain in the Troop and join the Venture Crew or Sea Scout Ship and complete his Eagle with the Troop. The final choice is his. We have Sea Scouts who remain in the Troop and work on Boy Scout advancements with the Troop. We have a Lad that is working toward Eagle with the Ship and we have some that are just happy to work toward Sea Scouting and Venturing Awards with the Ship. I would have to look it up. But I think once he has made his choice he needs to remain in one program for things like POR And conferences -But once met all the requirements can be transfered over. To be very honest I find we have so much going on in the Ship that adding Eagle Scout requirements and MB's only makes my life more difficult!! But the program isn't about me. My role is to serve the youth. Eamonn. Welcome to the forum.

"Hmmm, we don't allow the boys to post to the Yahoo Group site. Only the leaders" While that works!! What sort of example do we set when we (adults) sound off in a forum like this one? Is it better to Trust the Scout and risk that he /she might not get it right and learn from the mistake? I do think this Lad did learn. Eamonn.

A long time ago!! Well it seems a long time ago, in these forums I asked if when we post our rants/pet peeves/ stuff we are upset about are we guilty of not being loyal to the BSA? A week or so back, one of our Sea Scouts was having a bad day and decided to "Sound Off" on the Ship's Yahoo Group page. He wrote: "Taking responsibility is not that easy. but like me i have a life other then Sea Scouts and boy scouts. i am not trying to be rude but having a meeting every monday is kinda stupid and it is also stupid to have the meetings downstairs. What if i would bring a friend that could not walk down the stairs then what ?????? give me an answer for that!!!!!! And allen would or could even come to the meetings if we did not have one every stupid monday of every week!!!!!!! and i think that TJ would be a good boatswin but i think that sarah would do a much better job but that is just my opinion in the matter..." He ranted on for a while. I did put it all down to him just having a bad day and when I called him he said that he had indeed been fighting with his Mom. The Lad is of course welcome to his opinions and can through the QD see about changing the things that he doesn't like. I was a little upset that his negativity (As I seen it.) is now out there for everyone to see. We have seen the Web site which someone has started to voice his pet peeves. Again being as it is where it is, it's out there for anyone to look at. At times I think many of us - Yes I do include my-self forget that once we post something or place something on the WWW we have little or no control over who might see it. In another Scouting forum, someone with the best will in the world mentioned that they would accept a partial for a Climbing MB from one of our Sea Scouts, but not from OJ. Which is very true OJ isn't that good and the other Lad has done this at Camp Staff for a number of years. OJ found out about it from another youth member and thought he was being put down. (I explained that this wasn't the case and everything is fine) But I was lucky I knew all the details. Most people who visit non-official web sites I hope do understand that the people who write them or post in them are just expressing an opinion. Sadly one or two that have a lot of good stuff don't know when to stop and do venture into adding their take and opinions. Eamonn.

No I have no idea. Never heard of any of them, till I crossed the big pond. Bad thing is I really don't care for them. As a rule when we buy them,I take the filling out and remake them using good Italian hard crusty bread. Eamonn

Most DC's in our area seem to not be the older Scouts (15+) Many have parents who serve in Dens. They attend because they have little say in what they do or where they go!! Eamonn

The following is a copy of the E-mail from TJ our Boatswain: "Well seeing as we are in the hogie buisiness now, are we going to make them, or order them? In an effort to redeem myself?? I replied that it was up to them to choose. I need to have a word with him about his spelling!! Eamonn.

I went to the office because: * They asked me to! * The hours thing. * The Ladies in the office don't take requests from kids. I do feel that I did overstep my mark!! Even if my reasons or I see my reasoning as being for the good of the Ship. Sadly I don't think I have done such a great job of explaining to them the cost of running the Ship and how badly we need funds -I'll have to work on that. Of course the sad thing is that I can't undo what has been done. With hindsight maybe I should have seen if the dates could have been penciled in and I should have contacted the QD members. Still they now have to decide if we are going to make the hoagies? Or just have them delivered? Eamonn.

One of our Ship's Mates (ASM) is also our COR. I do like him,enjoy his company and do think that his heart is in the right place. His big failing in my view is that even with me pestering the beejeebers out of him, he never follows through with things that he is supposed to do. If I were to ask him to drive to Timbuktu tomorrow and he was free, he would do so with no problem. But ask him to do anything next week and he is either unsure or forgets. He also seems to never let up reminding me that he has two son's in the Ship and everything costs him three times as much. The two boys are as different as chalk and cheese. They are only 11 months apart. The older one suffers badly from ADD, has a learning disability and lacks social skills. I like kids a lot, but even I find I can only take him in small doses!! He is 16 now and Dad tells me that they have a daily fight trying to get him to take his meds. The younger one is a real class clown, with brains to burn. The Lad it seems can turn his hand to anything, is very athletic and even though he clowns around is clever enough to know when to quit. At the Election of Officers, the younger one was voted in as Storekeeper and the older one as Yeoman!! I knew having a Yeoman with a learning disability was going to be a challenge, but I reminded myself that is why I get paid the big bucks. At the October Quarterdeck Meeting a decision to hold a fund raising spaghetti dinner was reached. The Yeoman was to see if the Elk's would be available on the Saturday in January. Not really a big deal as all he had to do was ask his Dad who is the treasurer for the Elk's to bring it up at the next Elks committee meeting. Sadly due to poor planning the date of the November QD meeting fell on the same day as the first day of hunting season, so only two Scouts attended the meeting which wasn't really a meeting. As we meet on Mondays, we will not be meeting till January 7. The dinner was to be held on January 20. We have a real busy month in January with trips to Maryland and New Jersey. We held our QD meeting this past Monday after our regular Ship meeting. Nothing had been done about asking the Elks, in fact nothing had been done. Our Ship's Mate said he would ask. I was counting on the fact that he would forget and a couple of weeks would pass before we got an answer. So the Scouts changed the dinner to a hoagie sale. They gave me a list of 3 dates. I contacted the Borough as we have to have a permit to sell on the street. It costs $1.00 and is more about making sure that only one group sells than anything else. I go to give them my dollar, the Lady tells me that the local Volunteer Firemen have the first and third Saturday of each month (2 different firemen) She goes on to tell me that these date go really fast and if I want any others I need to get them in PDQ. So I without the approval of the QD go ahead and book 3 more dates!! I feel bad about taking this on myself, but the Ship does need the money and some of the Scouts could use some help paying for our summer activities. As soon as I got home I did e-mail all the members of the QD to let them know that -Yes indeed I had sinned!! I hated to go ahead without the green light from them. I'm sure if things don't go well that they will say it is all my fault. I did have the Ship's calendar with me so I made sure that no dates clashed. So what would you have done? Eamonn.