Eamonn

I enjoy hiking and backpacking. Over the years I have spent a small fortune on equipment that rarely gets used. Still, while I know my glory days are gone!! (I hiked the Pennine Way all 270 miles back when I was a Venture Scout in the UK.) When OJ was a little fellow I had hoped that the day would come when the two of us would go off hiking together. Boy was I wrong!! He hates to hike. - He doesn't even like taking the dog for a walk. He sees hiking as a waste of time. He finds nothing enjoyable about it. I kinda think if someone had tried to make him like it or force it on him, he would have said "Thanks! But NO THANKS" Some groups do seem to attract Scouts who like to hike and enjoy the challenge, while other groups just don't. I think we have room for both groups and trying to push an activity that they just don't like is a bit silly. Eamonn.

I have to admit that when we started the Ship, the goal was to become a Ship that was very much like you might expect to see on the cover of the Sea Scout Manual. While maybe this was my dream? I have come to see that it isn't what the Scouts really want. We can continue doing what we have been doing with the hope that maybe one day we will make the grade. Or we can focus on the Vision and Mission of the BSA and hopefully attract more older youth into a slightly modified program, which might one day be in line with the Ships who have years of experience. Eamonn.

I think Beavah has covered all the high points. It is also a good idea when there is an incident to have some kind of written record of it. If you do decide to write something down, you do need to be careful how you word it. Of course you want to tell the truth, but it is to cover your tail not come back and bite you on the tail. Be sure to inform your Council Service Center if you receive anything that looks like it might be a legal document and refer all calls to the SE. While not always! A lot of times talk about legal action is just that talk!! When the people doing the talking find out that they have to deal with the BSA and not little old you!! They get a feeling for how expensive following it might be and tend to lose interest or they decide to not go after the individual and go after the BSA. We had a case a few years back where a complete idiot broke all the rules and acted very badly. (He took a small group of Boy Scouts away for the weekend, by himself and while they were away did some kind of initiation ceremony, which involved the Scouts being tied together and him carving the letter T on their foreheads. As you can imagine the press had a field day with all of this. The guy ended up serving time -18 months for assault. Some of the parents sued the Council. The BSA ended up settling with the parents in an out of court settlement. Even though the idiot involved was clearly in the wrong he didn't lose a cent.) Eamonn

While the idea that all of us Scouter's are nice people who always get along with each other is nice. Sad to say it isn't always the case. I know that there are some people who can't stand me and some people who really don't have to try, but will somehow manage to get on my last nerve. If I were in your shoes, I think I'd take the time to sit down and make a list of my options. My own little brain storming session with myself. Think long and hard about what they are. Your list might be very different than mine. But as I see it you can: Quit. Do nothing. Try having a real heart to heart chat with him and telling him exactly how you feel and what you want to see changed. Talk with someone who might be able to help or fix the situation. The list could go on. To be very honest, I think from what you have posted that the two of you are like oil and water and no matter what will always end up getting up each other's noses. So with that in mind; - What is best for the Scouts that you both are supposed to be serving? I'm a little bit puzzled why the Pack Management Committee is playing a role in the running of a Den? Maybe if you look up the job descriptions of who does what as they are listed in the Cub Scout Leader Handbook and share this information everyone will come away with a better idea about what role they are supposed to play really is. When I look at the options, I think if it were me (And I know it isn't.) I'd go for meeting with the CM, far away from any Scouts (They have selective hearing and tend to hear everything that they shouldn't.) Maybe over an adult beverage? Then I tell him exactly how I feel and why what he is doing is upsetting me and harming the Scouts. I'd be very careful not to make any threats or promises that I wasn't willing too follow through with. (No -"If you don't I'll have to quit.") I'd make sure that everything I said was in line with what the Cub Scout Leader Book has to say and I'd make it clear that I wanted what is best for the Scouts in the Den. This might all be a waste of time!! He might not listen or hear a word that you say. If that happens you then have to reevaluate the situation and think about what your options are? Maybe you would be better off serving in another Pack? The worst thing for everyone is allowing this situation to continue. Deal with it as quickly and as quietly as possible and get back to providing a program for the Scouts. Eamonn.

Membership in the Ship took a real hit over the summer. We lost a number of members because they are off to college. They remain on the charter but really if the truth were to be told, they are done and will never be really active again as youth members. Due to working at Summer Camps and me being away training for a new position, we didn't do very much over the summer. most of the less active Scouts have let it be known that they don't think they will be coming back. I really don't blame them and am willing to admit to thinking that I let them down. Not just because I wasn't around, but also because I didn't do a better job of bringing more adults on board to help cover my not being around. I can fix what needs fixed, but of course I can't undo what has been done. I'm not beating myself up over this, as I do feel that at the end of the day I did do my best. We are left with a handful of Scouts, who really are active and really enjoy doing things as a group. Last week a group of us went kayaking. We had a great time. It was a hot day but the breeze on the river was nice, we'd had a lot of rain and the river was high and running fast. When we were done we of course had to stop for ice cream! I gave two Scouts a ride home. Our Boatswain and Boatswain's Mate. Two really super kids. They spent the summer down south working at Camp Blue Heron in Georgia. Both had a really good time and the people in Coastal Empire Council did a wonderful job of looking after "My" Scouts (Thanks!) I really was looking forward to hearing all about what they had done and the adventures they had along with the misadventures! They of course couldn't wait to tell me. Neither of these Scouts had ever served on a summer camp staff before. I heard about the board games that they played and how the games went on till the early hours. How TJ, lost his glasses and how Sarah had to go to the dentist, but most of what I heard were just stories about other Camp Staff members who of course I'd never met. How they teased each other, the pranks they played on each other. How So and So wore the same shirt everyday for a week. Sarah said it was strange how very quickly the staff came together and how no one ever seemed to get really upset or mad. She went on to say that they in many ways became like one big family. I dropped the pair of them off and drove home. Thinking about what they had said. We as a Ship have seemed to spend a lot of time trying to be a Ship. Using other Ships as our yardstick. All of these Ships have been around for a very long time and all have Skipper's that have been involved in the Sea Scouting program for a very long time. They are better equipped than we are and just know more about the program than I do. Somehow or somewhere along the line we seemed to have become so busy trying to catch up with these other Ships and the standards that they have, that we never really came together as a tight-knit group. The Scouts we have do like the Sea Scouting program and are getting there. -Wherever there might be? Still I'm thinking that maybe we are trying to run before we can walk? Just as Boy Scouting isn't really about turning Boys into first class campers, Sea Scouting isn't really about turning the youth we serve into first class sailors or seamen. (Outdoors is just a method we use.) For my part I really need to go back to basics and take a long hard look at the methods of Venturing. If we can work on being more like a "Camp Staff Family" I think everything else will start falling into place. Eamonn.

Robert Mazzuca did serve as SE for Greater Pittsburgh Council. A big sprawling metro council. Ed is still active in that Council. We (Me!!) are the poor relations next door in the next council. While Pittsburgh has had a rough ride with the loss of so many steel jobs and loss of population, it remains very blue collar and very pro Scouting. You have to watch your step as you walk around Heritage Scout Reservation, tripping over plaques that state who donated what or funding for what is a real hazard. While many of the donations have come from big corporations which have their HQ in Pittsburgh, many are from Unions who also support Scouting and the Council. While I have never been a part of the Council, I have heard that Mazzuca did a lot to bring more money into the Council. Again from what I have heard, I don't really see him making any sweeping changes. But then again I'm not sure he could make them if he wanted too? The challenges that the BSA in my opinion (For what it's worth) faces are membership and credibility. Sadly we seemed to lose a lot of credibility when some people tried to fix membership. When I read the BSA Strategic Plan for 20062010, I didn't see any real change of direction, in fact a lot of it seemed to be the same old same old re-worded and at times I felt it was placing way to much empathize on what had happened in the past instead of a real plan for the future. But maybe I'm guilty of being overly critical? The plan does call for adding 1 million new volunteers. It also calls for a new market study focusing on Hispanic/Latino Americans, African Americans,and Asian Americans that will help us understand the perceptions of the BSA in these communities. In addition, it will gain a better understanding of their needs related to programs for youth and explore authentic messaging that resonates in each community. This information coupled with other program-specific research will serve as our guide in strengthening Scouting. Over the next five years, we will also Develop through research and best methods new concepts and playbooks for effective execution of roundup plans in every district. Help volunteers establish a mandate and mind-set that untrained leadership meeting with young people is unacceptable. Examine core elements of national Quality awards and establish measurements that unit leaders embrace. Involve far more volunteer resources in marketing and selling the benefits of Cub Scouting to families through multiple venues. Provide a specific mission for the Order of the Arrow to help deliver a more outdoors message along with their increased support of troop and council camping programs. Improve the effectiveness of all adult leader training. Deliver a comprehensive set of marketing tools aimed at parents that communicate the benefits and values of Scouting. As it is now September 2007, so far I have seen very little evidence of the plan being put into practice. Of course I might well be suffering from the Mushroom Syndrome. As we know change does take time in this organization. We do seem OK with living with our past successes and maybe a little afraid that if we do change that we will somehow upset the traditions and practices that have worked and served us in the past. I'm happy that the new Chief Scout Executive has some experience working in a area that has had it's share of problems. Fixing the problem of the continuing decline in Cub Scout membership is not going to be an easy fix, but I'm sure is high on the list of things that need immediate attention. Trying to make Scouting more attractive to non-white groups, in areas that have little or no experience of the BSA or Scouting could mean making a lot of changes to the program as we (Me) might know it, does run the risk of making the volunteers we have at present unhappy. Much of the problem does lie with the make up of the National Executive Board and the groups that they represent, while they all share much the same vision and mission of the BSA, some of these groups are undergoing big changes within their own organization, while other groups have not changed and more than lightly will not change in a very long time. I'm unsure what troutmaster means by: "our thoughts on the program going forward, both good and not so good."? Most adults are aware of what is going on (the program?) in the units, Districts and Councils they serve. Most youth members see "Scouts" as what is happening (the program?) in the unit that they are in. The average parent might know where the Council Service Center is, maybe the name of the SE, but the program is what the unit serves. If it is good and holds the interest of their kid, they are happy and will support it, if it fails to live up to the expectations of their child, he or she will lose interest and leave. The program is as good or as bad as we the volunteers allow it to be. As a volunteer I would like to see the training of the professionals who serve us improved. Especially in the areas of marketing. Making local efforts tie in with National and Regional efforts. Fund Raising. Each and every Council should have a professional who is knowledgeable about grant writing and working with foundations who are willing to support the efforts of the Council. One of my pet peeves is the numbers game we play with LFL. I'll admit that I have never taken the time to learn very much about it, but if it's supposed to be separate let it be separate!! Let it stand on it's own and not use funds and resources that have been donated by people who think they are supporting the traditional programs. Maybe in other Councils it really does do some good? Sadly in the Council I'm in, I don't see what real good it does and is a drain on the finances of the Council. Of course being as the membership of the Council is made up with half the membership being enrolled in LFL, I really don't see us ever admitting that this is an in school program, where nearly all of the youth have no idea that they belong to the BSA. Still an organization with a budget of over $1.3 million a year serving 10,000 youth looks far better on paper than one that serves less than 5,000. Strange how when I look at the LFL site I see no mention of the BSA, but the BSA seems very proud of the 1,750,767 youth participants in "Learning for Life is a corporation affiliated with the Boy Scouts of America that offers career and character education programs" OK!! So much for my pet peeve. Ea. (This message has been edited by Eamonn)

scoutldr Suffering from the Mushroom syndrome isn't all bad. At least you get a good nights sleep. At the other end of the spectrum we seem at times to have the movers and grovers who seem to know the latest news about anything and everything. Some of these seem to suffer from "Rub Your Nose In It Syndrome". They come off as being and acting way too smug for my liking. Worse still are the RYNITS members who while knowing all this stuff either don't understand it or decide to go out and preach what they think it means. As a rule they do have a grain of truth in what they preach, the rest is just their take on what they want it to mean. The areas that seem to attract a lot of RYNITS are: Youth Protection . Cub Scout Camping. Uniform and of course advancement. Members of the RYNIT Club also seem to "Know" a lot about what is going on with just about everyone in the Council. In the past few years according to them. Her Who Must Be Obeyed has had a tummy tuck (Not True) I was buying a local golf course. (Not True) I had a big fight with the old SE and thats when he decided to move. (Not true.) I resigned from the Area Committee, because I had a falling out with the Area President. (Half true -I did resign but because I wanted to not leave HWMBO to attend meetings that always seemed 150 mile drive.) At times these people who strive to be in the know can be a real pain in the neck. Ea.

It kinda works too the tune of "They were only playing leapfrog" (Tune: 'John Brown's Body') One staff officer jumped right over another staff officer's back. And another staff officer jumped right over that other staff officer's back, A third staff officer jumped right over two other staff officers' backs, And a fourth staff officer jumped right over all the other staff officers' backs. They were only playing leapfrog, They were only playing leapfrog, They were only playing leapfrog, When one staff officer jumped right over another staff officer's back. Looking again!! Maybe it goes better with: "If The Sergeant Steals Your Rum" (Tune: 'Never Mind') If the sergeant steals your rum, never mind, If the sergeant steals your rum, never mind; Though he's just a blinking sot, Let him have the bloody lot, If the sergeant steals your rum, never mind. (From Oh What a Lovely War) Ea. (This message has been edited by Eamonn)

When I first read what Lisa posted my gut reaction was that here is a kid who really could get a lot out of Scouting and needs Scouting. As you may know one of my great loves is dogs. I'm mad about dogs. (More about that in another thread!!) My brother -n-law has a nice looking dog. I'm not sure where he got it? I do know that the dog has bite me once and OJ twice!! We both now try and do everything possible not to visit my brother-in-law. A pal of mine was given a big Rottweiler (Come to think of it they are all big!!) She seemed like a very nice dog. Bad thing was that she tore the house apart, she ate his couch, chewed anything and everything. In the end she had to go. He was "Kind enough" to ask me if I wanted her? I didn't like the idea of what would happen to her if I said no. But I knew deep in my heart that her being around would not be good for Rory and Joe. I knew that I wasn't a good enough dog trainer to get her to change her ways and I really didn't have the time. OK, I do realize that dogs and boys are different. Maybe if this Lad had a parent who was willing and able to help out and work with the Lad? Things might be different. Most of us are not trained or well enough equipped to take on a challenge like this. I sure as heck don't believe that Scouts and Scouting is only for "Good little Boys"! I don't know if a real heart to heart with his Mum, would result in any long term differences? I don't know if there is a unit close to hand that might be more able to manage the situation? I'd surely love for him to be able to continue, but I'm unsure if that's possible? Maybe a pow-wow with all the leaders might help? If it's just a couple of people having a moan and a groan? You can get past that!! My brother-in-law has kept the dog that bites!! I think he like the idea that it keeps me away!! Eamonn. (Joe and Rory now have a sister -Not a Rottweiler!!)

"Of course we might end up with kids trying to justify the MP3 player on a camp out as one of their 10 essentials..." It seemed to me that the BSA as an organization was late seeing how big an impact computers and computer type technology was going to have on Scouting. Scoutnet was a joke when it first came along, only it wasn't funny. Like it or not kids and many adults, even old codgers!! Are "Into" all of this type of stuff. Training podcasts? We have them for leaders. I'll bet training podcasts for Scouts and Cub Scouts will be here soon. I really don't want too start another ten page thread about Cell Phones!! But I'll bet along with the new jeans, book-bags and haircuts cell phones and i-pods were high on the list of things that kids just had to have to go back to school. OJ wanted a new laptop (Number 3!!) I thought I'd get off cheap with something around $500.00 -Boy was I wrong!! I got hit for a new Apple Notebook, the extended warranty was almost $300.00!! Young adults and young people love all this high tech stuff. If we don't move with them we will get left behind. Ea.

Like others I'm not an attorney. I don't play one on TV and I slept at home last night , not at a Best Western. I tend to agree that if this stays at the Troop level, talk of Charges and words like that are a bit over the top. Still maybe, just maybe there might be a case if the CO is named as a party. (She could file against the CO for allowing it to happen!) Where I work we have a lot of volunteers and all of them are given Sexual harassment training and agree to comply with the rules. To cover my tail, I would contact the CO. Mainly to ensure that they are aware of what's happening. I'd file a report of the so called incident in writing, with the CO and the Council. (Keeping a copy on file for myself.) Then I'd do nothing!! Just wait and see what comes next!! If I were the Committee Chair. I would have to think long and hard as to if I would want the Lady on the charter? (Providing of course the accusations are groundless) Or if there is any truth in them? I might want to look at my options? Some sort of training? Not rechartering the harassers? Not rechartering anyone involved? All of these are options that could be brought before the CO. Many Councils do have lawyers on the Executive Board, who are willing to give advise for nothing. You might want to talk to your Council President. I'll admit it does seem to be very much a storm in a teacup. But if the press got hold of a story like this? You can imagine the embarrassments it might cause. Ea.

May or much of the food here in SW PA,seems to be a delicacy in other parts of PA and the USA!! Many of the families in the area have Polish or Italian roots. So we have the Pierogies and Kielbasa, along with the cabbage and noddles. Kinda strange that we don't have any Polish restaurants in the area. The Strip District in Pittsburgh is a Mecca for great food. Really good bread and imported cheese (Sad to say no good English cheeses!) And home to Parmanti Brothers which might be best described as a "Dagwood Type" Sandwich (Named after the Earl of Sandwich) My Mother-in-law cooks what she calls "Depression Food" She makes a really good Ham Pot Pie, using a ham bone, potatoes and the "Pot" is some kind of a dough all this is simmered on top of the stove and really does stick to your ribs. Not far from where I live, I'm told that the Big Mac was invented. -Not sure if I'd call it a delicacy. One of our best selling soups when we had the restaurants was Turtle Soup. Back home it's more like a Consomm, with tiny bits of Turtle in (Mock Turtle soup uses the meat from the head of a calf.) Here it was more like a hearty vegetable soup. Eamonn.

I'm sure many of you have read "How do you eat an elephant?" The correct answer is of course one small bite at a time!! "How do you get it done faster?" Of course you offer other people to join you. Some will come with all the tools they need, others will need help. Some will take a bite and just love it, while others will not like it at all. Some will not be willing to even try it. Some may have a leftover elephant in the fridge that they are working on, some might have more than one!! Some people will dig right in. Some will want to know what parts they have to eat and what parts can be left on the side of the very big plate. Some will stick around till the elephant is eaten, others will eat till they are full and then be on their way. Eating elephants and volunteering have a lot in common. Could someone please pass the salt? Eamonn.

insanescouter Have to admit to never having spent a lot of time on youtube. I did follow the link you provided and ended up going to bed late!! There is a lot of good stuff there on Scouting. Some of it I might use in the Ship when we do leadership training's. Thanks. Eamonn.

Mrw1 In a lot of ways your husband seems very like HWMBO (Her Who Must Be Obeyed) Of course I know her as my loving wife and after 25 years of being married we have got used to each other and each others strong and weak points. She really doesn't like the idea of groups of kids, who might not always be under control. While it might not seem very Scout-like I really can see her telling some parents what she thinks in no uncertain terms. Over the years her role has been supporting me. She has had to deal with Scouts and their parents on the phone, taking messages and sorting out the messes I might have be guilty of. She has helped sort out ginormas deliveries of popcorn, when the popcorn for the district used to come to our place. She was left running and looking after our business when I'd take off to go away Scouting. At one time we hadn't had a family vacation as a family for a number of years (I'd been busy with "The Scouts") I thought I'd fix that!! So I took her to Philmont -I attended a conference on Commissioner Service, while she caught up with her reading. I don't know how families where both husband and wife are deeply involved manage it? Looking back at the "Old Eamonn" I now see that at times I was being very selfish. While of course I like to think I was doing something good and worth while; still I know at times my being out and about was as much about me spending times with my pals as it was anything else and I gave little or no thought to her and her feelings. I still have a hard time saying no and admit to missing not being at every event and spending hours and hours just hanging out with "The gang". I miss not being at the center of things. Sadly it took her becoming ill to deliver a wake up call. The Scout oath and Law has been my guide for a very long time, but I now see that for this to really have meaning for me it has to start at home. It's fine and dandy to know the 12 points of the Law, but if I'm not living them and trying to live by them at home? I'm not really a good Scout. Eamonn.

John, Yes it has to do with the idea of mandating people to do things that maybe others feel they ought to do or have to do. At one time somewhere on the BSA site there was a list of cute little slogans that could be downloaded and used at training's. One read "If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!" While of course the BSA and Scouting isn't perfect and at times does get things wrong. At times there are things I'd like to see changed,still for the most part as an organization the rules of membership do have the interest and well being of the boys at heart. If Scouting was truly supposed to be a Parent and Son activity the rules of membership would state that. Tiger Cubs does require the involvement of an adult partner. I was sometime back told that this was because someone with a bunch of letters after their name had said that little boys needed this sort of support because of their lack of maturity. I never checked this out, so I'm not sure if it's a fact or not? Maybe I'm just irked that some well meaning people feel that they can change the rules because they feel that they can? In another thread it seemed to me that someone thought I was lost in the past and living in bygone days. This is not the case!! I properly am more aware of more families who have just reasons for not stepping up to the plate than a good many of the Scouter's I have met. I really think that the people who do give up their time and money to support young people do go above and beyond. I only have to look back at my Father-In -Law, he worked in the steel industry. He worked shifts and only got two weeks vacation a year. One of which was spent taking the Troop he was SM of too summer camp. He did so because he wanted too and felt he was doing his bit. He was a super guy, but sadly there were others who didn't see the hardship that being a SM took on his family, they did see that he wasn't a regular at Roundtable meetings and never took Wood Badge. At times many of us (Me!!) do make the mistake of judging others and their commitment to Scouting or their children, using their own (My own) commitment as the yard stick. For a lot of Scouts being a Scout is just another activity. I'm OK with that. I still feel that being a member can do a lot for the Lad (Or Lass). My big fear is that we are in danger of becoming a white, middle class organization with no room for people who don't fit in. I know that I sure as heck don't have the right to judge others and I certainly don't have the right to penalize children of parents who for what ever reason (Good or bad) might not be able or just plain not want to get involved in Scouting. When it came to supporting the Troop OJ was in, I wasn't much of an asset. Just because I was involved within the organization didn't really make things any better or easier for the people who were involved. Yes I was only ever a call or an email away and I like to think if I'd been asked to help, I would have done what I could. Still this is very different than someone demanding that I would have to perform X number of hours or assist in X number of activities and having to provide someone who had the power?? With a reason, which he or she would judge to be a good or not good reason. I have a really hard time with this. Eamonn.

I was active in OJ's "Scouting Career" Up until he moved from the pack into the troop. At his request I didn't "Cross-over" with him. He joined the Troop and I became active in other areas of Scouting. As his parent I did attend the troop activities I was invited to attend. I toddled off to COH's and Parent's Night at camp. I supported most of the Troop fund raising events, by selling stuff and buying stuff, most of which I could have lived happily without. I was never asked to do much else. So I didn't. I never joined the Troop Committee, never took the Scouts to camp. I was never asked to drive a car full of Scouts anyplace! I kinda think I wasn't asked because "They" knew I was busy. But the fact is I did very little for the Troop. I supported OJ,by making sure he was to be where he was supposed to be when he was to be there. The Bank Of Dad was always open to pay for whatever he needed. I was there for OJ when it seemed that his enthusiasm was at a low ebb. At one time I was Council Training Chair. So directly or indirectly I played a role in the training of some of the troop leaders. As District Chairman I helped the District meet the requirements for Quality District, we increased the amount of FOS money coming in by over 400% - Hopefully this in some way helped improve the programs for all the Scouts. I played a role in starting the pack that went on to feed the troop. I suppose if I'd been asked to do something specific, I would have volunteered. But I also suppose if the Troop had mandated me to do something I more than lightly would have have told them to go and pound salt and depending on how old OJ was at that time we would have found another Troop. Many will say that because I was active in the BSA I was doing my bit. But what about parents of Scouts who are doing their bit elsewhere? Some serve on boards of hospitals, the public library, the YMCA some are very active in their church. They support their Son's, but there just isn't enough hours in the week to take on being active in yet another activity. Maybe I'm guilty of not being the best supporter of Troop 160? But the choice was mine and I'm happy with it. Eamonn.

"For example, if you had a family come to your pack and state, We would like to have our son join your pack but first let me state that we, as his parents, will not, under any circumstances, volunteer any time or support whatsoever to your pack. - I think you would be totally within your right to refuse membership to this Scout/family." No. I disagree. Family involvement is not a condition of membership into the BSA. Yes Family Involvement is a method of Cub Scouting. "Family involvement is an essential part of Cub Scouting. When we speak of parents or families, we are not referring to any particular family structure. Some boys live with two parents, some live with one parent, some have foster parents, and some live with other relatives or guardians. Whoever a boy calls his family is his family in Cub Scouting" (Copied from : http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/about/pandm.html ) Under "Your Role as a Parent" the BSA Site states: "Some specific things you can do to help your son in Cub Scouting are Work with your son on projects Help your Cub Scout along the advancement trail Participate in monthly pack meetings Attend parent-leader conferences Go on family campouts with your son Provide support for your son's den and pack. It goes on to say: It's important to remember that the adult leaders of your son's den and pack are volunteers who give their own time to provide a quality program for your son. While they have been carefully selected and extensively trained for their roles, there are always times when they could use help from parents in the pack. Pack events such as the pinewood derby, blue and gold banquet, or field days take a lot of effortmore than the monthly meetings. The pack's leaders would likely welcome any help you can give. Likewise, den leaders will be grateful to parents who can lend a hand with field trips and outings. By pitching in as needed, you can show your son the importance of helping others. So be on the lookout for opportunities for you to help the den, the pack, and its leaders. I would hope that if we (volunteer leaders) are going to reach out to do what we can for any kid, the Lad who has parents who state "let me state that we, as his parents, will not, under any circumstances, volunteer any time or support whatsoever to your pack." Is the Lad who more than lightly will benefit most from our programs and my hope is that we would welcome him with open arms. When all is said and done it is the Boy who is becoming a member not his family. Parents who want to get involved will. Kids of parents who are not willing to help their children need us far more than we might know. To turn a Lad away because of his parents? No way. Eamonn.

Jerry Clark, who has been involved with the Action Center D Rappelling Tower at the National Jamboree for sometime has started a Yahoo Group page for anyone who is interested, not just in rappelling, but also in staffing the 2010 event. The group can be found at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nationalbsajamboree2010/ Ea.

"Thanks for the trip down memory lane Eamonn. I have dear memories like that from childhood as well. But den mothers having meetings in the afternoon at their home and all the neighborhood boys wearing their uniform to school doesn't happen anymore. 21st century pack leadership is not the same. That's why National updates the program." Being as this is a site about Scouting. I'm sure Cubmaster Mike was being kind when he posted the above. Yes Mike my Mother-in-law was a Den Mother and was active as you so describe. My son has just turned 19 and I'm not talking about the Dark ages!! Without wishing or wanting to put anyone down. I have found that in most cases people don't volunteer because: 1/ We don't ask. 2/ We don't go about asking the right people. 3/ We don't ask the right way. Having an active Pack Management Committee, filled with people who the Nominating Committee has selected and asked correctly, will solve all the problems that most packs and units have. The key lies in taking the time to really think about what positions need filled. Asking for a volunteer and not utilizing them or giving them busy work is never a good thing. Identifying the best person available for the position and having a planned "Ask" done correctly, with a clearly defined job description will and does work. What doesn't work is the poor CM standing up at a Pack Meeting telling everyone that they need to help. Mass mailings are a waste of money. But the worst thing we can do in my view is to try and force anyone into doing something that they don't want to do. If I have provide an enjoyable trip down memory lane? I'm really happy. But I'd be a lot happier if we could bring more young Lads into Scouting and keep them in. This of course is dependent on having volunteers who want to do the job they volunteer to take on. Happy volunteers make for happy Scouts and happy Scouts remain in Scouting, because the happy volunteers are happy providing a good program. Eamonn.

I'm a little unsure what the real question is? Are you asking "How would I deal with this"? Or are you saying that something has happened that seems to have been maybe not managed as well as it might have been? Ea

I kinda think I made where I stand on this clear in the other thread. If anyone is saying that in order for a Lad to belong to Cub Scout Pack "666" (or whatever) his parents have to (NOT CHOOSE TOO!!) become involved in Pack activities. They are in fact in violation of the Membership Rules laid down by the BSA. Having thought about this!! I'm not sure why? Or what you need them to do? Back in the day !! (Sorry!!) When I was a Cubmaster. Pack 155 had about 70 active Cub Scouts. The Dens did their thing!! Weekly meetings, the odd little trip to someplace local - The post office, the local newspaper. The District had a District Pinewood Derby for the Tigers and the Cub Scouts who were lucky enough to win the top 3 places. The Lads parents or whoever looked after them took them to the event. There was Day Camp, again most parents were working so they dropped the little fellows off and then picked them up at the end of the day. Some parents did volunteer to help. (The Day Camp Director had very sexy knees.) Council had a resident camp. The Pack provided one adult for every five boys. Parents did volunteer, but normally the Dens worked out who was going. Then there was the Pack activities: Parent and Son Camp - The Cub Scouts camped as part of the Pack under the leadership of the Den Leaders (This was pre BALOO) The pack Committee took care of the "Work" The Fishing Derby. Organized by the Pack Committee. Blue and Gold Banquet again the Pack Committee with input from the leaders. The Baseball game -Pack Committee. Different parades -Den Leaders Special Pack Meetings (Halloween, Christmas) The Cubmaster with help from the Den Leader Coach and Den Leaders. Pack Pinewood Derby -The Pack Committee. I'm guessing we had about 45 families. We had a Pack Committee of 16 (Den Leaders were not part of the Committee) Of course if the person in charge of an event needed help they asked a Parent if they could help. But I really wouldn't know what to do with 90 Mums and Dads who were press ganged into service!! Ea.

I at times think we use the word program too much or don't really understand it. If we are going to stand a chance of keeping a youth member in the "Program" we need to find out what his /her interests are and include them in what we are doing. One size doesn't fit all. All of the adults, not just the guys over 50!! Need to try and remember what it was like being a kid. Remember the things that were fun and include them in the program. - A good water fight, getting really dirty and muddy, being out late at night with a strong flashlight. I agree with red feather that we need to set our expectations high. The program should challenge the young people we serve. We do a dis-service to the youth when everything is the same old, same old or we allow things that are not someone's best to become the norm. While I'm happy and do believe that a lot of what makes kids happy today hasn't changed much over the years (Watch younger kids in a play ground, the swings and slides are the same as when I was a kid, take older kids rappelling and see the smile on their face when the get to the ground and look up where they have been) I do also believe that we need to accept that todays kids are just that. If we are going to have rules about things not covered in any Scouting materials these rules need to come from the youth. Back when I was a Scout it was older people worried about how long our hair was. Nine volt transistor radios, hands in our pockets and chewing gum!! Today it seems that we old people are worried about: Baggy pants, cell phones, i-pods and hand held computer games. I have never ever yet a kid who joined Scouts because he or she felt that their character was in need of an overhaul. They joined because they wanted to have fun and be with their friends. Talking with Scouts who are now adults who were in the Troop many years back; many have said how much they enjoyed the times spend at camp at the end of the day just sitting around the embers of the fire, just talking. The old saying that we have two ears and one mouth is especially true for adults in Scouting, when we learn to listen and hear what the youth we are serving are saying we can do a better job. I believe the Scouting program is all about relationships. I wish I could say that over the years all the Scouts I have had in different units did like me. Sadly that isn't true. I know I'm guilty of liking some more than others. Still I have done my best to respect every Scout who I have been entrusted with. Different Scouts have of course had different levels of commitment and different reasons for their level of commitment. Some of the Scouts who were most active in the Troop were there because life at home wasn't very good and the Troop was a safe haven. Others were so busy doing so many other things that they just didn't have as much time. At one time I made the mistake of trying to judge their commitment by using mine as the yard stick. A good program offers the youth members Fun, Challenges, Adventure and Friendship. I have tried to know the program and the rules even when at times I have maybe not kept them!! I try and really know as much as I can about each and every Scout and his or her family. I make a point of visiting the homes of all of the youth I serve. When there is a problem we try and fix the problem and not worry too much about who is to blame. Before meetings (PLC and now Quarterdeck Meetings) I write on the palm of my hand the words "Shut Up!!" I also try and be aware of how I'm feeling. Eamonn

I'm sorry I just can't go along with the idea of mandating parents to be volunteers, no matter what the family income is. I know that I sure as heck do not have any business trying to pass my views or my judgments on how or where other people choose to spend or not spend their time. It's maybe a little too easy to look at those who live on "Top of the Hill" and think how they have it made and should and maybe ought be able to take on more. I however might not have all the facts and they might not want to provide them to me. That "Nice wealthy family" who live where the grass is greener could have all sorts of things going on. A very good friend of mine who is very wealthy is going through sheer hell with her aged parents. Her parents are known as good people who over the years have done a lot for others in the community. The entire family is uncomfortable letting outsiders know what is happening. Other people I know have chosen what organizations they are comfortable working with and supporting and don't have time for the yet another commitment. An other friend of mine has a wife who is an alcoholic. I sure don't want her being shanghaied into helping do anything with young people and he is uncomfortable leaving her alone with his kids. Both his boys are in Cub Scouting. The list of reasons why we ought not force people into a corner could go on and on. It seems to me that the system we have in place has worked for the last 100 years and has we have managed OK. My parents were never involved in the units I was in as a youth and I think if their participation had been mandatory, I would never have been allowed to join. I like to think that over the past 30 years as an adult volunteer, I have done my bit for Scouting (While having a very good time) both with the time I have put in and the money I have donated. Of course had "mandatory family support" been in force I would not have joined and what I have done would never have been done. Adding more and more hurdles that get in the way of allowing a Lad to participate in the program is just plain silly. Add new requirements that don't really exist goes against the rules and bylaws of the BSA. Who ever is doing it needs to stop. It's just plain wrong. Eamonn.

Hi Welcome to the forum. I wish you nothing but the best of luck. One of the best books I remember reading on Scouting was a book that followed one Troop (It was an English Troop) It followed the Troop and the leaders from the early days of Scouting up to the time the book was published. Sadly I can't remember the name of the book, I borrowed it from the Fulham Public Library. It was maybe a little "Norman Rockwell-ish??" Tellin the story of the very dedicated leader who starts the Troop, builds the first Scout Hut, which of course burns down!! He of course rebuilds it, only to see all the young men he has trained go off to war ... They of course return and rebuild the Troop. I kinda think a book that covers the history of the BSA would lack the personal touch and might be better left to the people who have the material close at hand. Not to say that there aren't some people who do a great job on their own. Just my thoughts. Ea.