Eagledad

10 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Or they were involved during the 1970s "Improved Scouting Program." One Eagle from ISP era did not understand why camping is so important. They do a lot of car camping and MBUs.

 

In my neck of the woods, that is an understatement. I have heard of district commissioners being yelled and cursed at by professionals, and read one DE's abusive texts to the district commissioner. I myself have been ignored and overruled by the DE about an event I was running. I have friends who have had events changed at the last minute by professionals. I had a friend removed from his district and council level duties because he was not a "team player," read he opposed the sale of a camp and was trying to save it. Within the year prior to removal, he was responsible for 2 council level and and 5 district level activities.

So volunteers are used until they burn out, or forced out, in my neck of the woods. 

The Commissioner Corp is only as good as the District Commissioner.  I personally belive that the District Commissioner is the most important scouting in the district. The DC controls or has heavy influence in all the the District Activities.

Barry

2 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

And quite a few had a youth scouting experience which was completely adult driven and run; they are doing what they know. Quality Control in BSA is non-existent and hasn't existed for decades.

Quality control is basically training. Adults hate to be told they are doing it wrong, so theoretically training should start them in the right direction at the begining. But, the BSA is learning from the experience of bringing in female adults. One of the ironic results of the old training courses is that they set the wrong example for new leaders. The reason Woodbsdge was changed was because leaders were trying to mimic the Woodbadge course. One big example was adults eating their meals with the scouts. National realized that it needed a more basic style of training designed with inexperienced adults in mind. That is what the courses are today, believe it or not.

Other than watching and learning in a functional scout run troop, I'm not sure how to get new adult leaders up to speed.

Barry

I've told the story many times here of the SM of a 6 month old troop calling to ask what activities scouts can do on campouts besides advancement. When I suggested a few hours of free time, he couldn't allow it because the scouts would just go out and get into mischief. 

That SM was never in scouts as a youth and I've observed over the years that adult leaders without a youth scouting experience have a different expectation of the scouting experience than those who did have a youth scouting experience. To be fair, they aren't purposely taking the outing out of scouting, they just don't know. They start by doing what is easiest, and that is following instructions for advancement. 

And while I enjoyed working with, and mentoring, many female adult leaders, bringing them into the troop program as leaders changed the program a lot because they didn't bring with them a boy scout youth scouting experience. Of course male adults without the experience are just a problematic, as I pointed out in my example above. But women, at least in our area, make up around 50% of the adult leaders in troops. It's just a guess, but I wouldn't be surprised if 75% of new adult troop leaders today didn't have a youth scouting experience.  So, we shouldn't be surprised of a trend where scouts are restricted from creative freedoms and decisions.

Barry

That is interesting. We once organized a Trooporee with three other troops. I could see that being interpreted as taking funds away from the District Camporee. I don't think the rule existed then, but if it did, we would likely have figured a way around it because our Trooporee was so much better than the Camporee.

Barry

48 minutes ago, SSScout said:

The ultimate Klondike Derby.  In hindsight,  plans could've been better, but A wonderful inspirational story.  Shackleton brought all his crew home. 

What about the dogs.

Barry

I once did a Tim the Tool Man Taylor skit for a pinewood derby announcement. Tim tries to show Al how to make a pinewood derby but uses all the wrong tools (chainsaw) and makes a mess. The skit was just to make a boring announcement fun and was not a how-to of making a pinewood derby. We did that on a Saturday. That was 25 years ago, so I don't remember much of it, but you could do something like that with a clumsy character trying to show how to set up a tent with a straight person fixing the mess.

Barry

Very cool.

Have you done a camping trip with a pack? It's not like camping in a troop. 90% of the campers either have never camped or have very little experience. Most will have to borrow any gear they bring. And meals are easier done for the whole pack because finding gear and cooks for smaller groups is a challenge. I'm a big believer in freed time, but cub age families really need more planned activities, even for free time. Those Tigers are as cute as can be, but they are slippery little devils if they are busy.

As for how to present it; the presentation needs to be fun, funny and entertaining. or you will find yourself spending more time trying to quiet down the scouts.

I will work on some ideas.

Barry

11 hours ago, yknot said:

Not unique? No other youth or young adult organization at the time was selling itself to the American public as a bastion of moral standards and therefore safety. Not 4-H. Not YMCA. Not Little League. Boy scouts marketed its oath and law to boys and parents to convince them they were joining an organization where people adhered to higher ideals and implied their kids would be safe. I don't fault Scouts for having a problem with youth abuse and not being sure what to do about it in individual cases. I do fault them for continuing to cloak themselves in a dishonest false morality and continuing with business as usual when these cases began to pile up. The leaders knew there was a problem then, later, and now. The "red files" as they were first called in the 1920s or so, and then later the IV files, and now the more popularly labeled "perversion" files, are the irrefutable proof. 

First off, in your 1000 or so posts, I can’t recall you saying one positive thing about the BSA. Second, if you don’t preach it, you don’t teach it. The BSA vision is building character. That’s what the organization preaches, and that is what they teach. Not everyone is in it for the vision, but most are. The moral standards of character is still noble.

Barry

7 minutes ago, 69RoadRunner said:

Yeah, BSA says not to caravan and that's good advice. On the highway, it's not that hard to safely stay fairly close if traffic is light. In urban areas with traffic lights, it's a bad idea to try to stay together.

Actually its the urban areas with traffic lights that cause much of the problem because the following drivers will take risks to keep up with the lead driver when lights change between vehicles, or they quickly change lanes when traffic gets heavy. I've witnessed two near collisions in those scenarios. It's better that each driver gets the next stop on their own. That may still be only a few blocks apart, but the following driver isn't being motivated to catch up. As for the van without a 2nd driver, might consider a mature scout who can help navigate and attend with the passengers. I even did an Eagle BOR in that situation on the way to Philmont.

Barry

A few lesson s learned from van trips.

Two drivers per vehicle are a must. Switch out every two or three hours is recommended. 

Gas stops and snack/food stops take three times longer with scouts because they are painfully slow. We found Scouts and adults should wear uniforms so the store and restaurant employees know who all those kids running around wildly belong to. Travel is the only time our scouts are required to wear a uniform. 

Make sure all drivers have the lists of phone numbers and designated stops. We even include copies of health forms for each vehicle.

Don't caravan or follow each other. The BSA suggest it, but travel is safer when the following vehicles aren't trying to keep up in traffic. Even with drivers driving at their personal comfortable speed, we were never more than 10 minutes apart after a 3 hour leg.

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head. Have a great trip.

Barry

On 2/23/2022 at 5:26 PM, 69RoadRunner said:

Yeah, we're doing Philmont this year and renting a van from Denver airport and wow is it expensive. I'm hoping things are better next year when we do a roll your own trip. 

I'm trying to find a few viable trips to present to the troop for 2023. Viable for a group of scouts is the greatest challenge. The scouts have done none of these trips I'm looking at, so they'd all be great experiences. My wise Committee Chair said pick trips I'd love to do since I'm doing all this work and the scouts will love it, too.

We've been rotating between Philmont, Sea Base and Northern Tier. I thought it would be nice to do something on our own. 

Can you tell me about the Tetons part of your trip? That could be part of a Plan B for us.

A few thoughts; I seem to remember crews taking a train to Philmont from Denver. troops and churches might help get a crew to Philmont using their own vehicles. We did several backing trips through summer camp high adventure programs. That was 20 years ago and the economy may have stopped those programs, but they were all over the U.S. and basically just provide a guide and the rest is on your own. 
Barry

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

That was what the Cub Scout handbook was for me ... an outline of things to do that I had not tried before. I vividly remember:

• holding open the page about neckties in front of a mirror until I no longer needed a clip-on.
• learning referee/umpire signals. Although I wasn't athletic, I began to enjoy watching sports more because I could follow the adjudication as well as the action.
• model boats with rubber band motors.
• collections -- our DL had us bring what we were collecting to a Den meeting.

Plus, the book served Bobcat, Wolf, and Bear, if I recall.

Ah the good ol days.

1 hour ago, MattR said:

Start from the bottom but make sure the entire program is so simple that you can teach it to someone over a cup of coffee. Simplicity will make it easier to grow, much like scouting when  it was new.

Make it explicit such that everyone involved knows. Just as importantly, explicitly remove the distractions. There is only one method - scouts learning to play and make their own decisions while abiding by the scout law. Advancement is a distraction if the goal is for scouts to define their fun or challenges. Simplify the uniform to be a tee-shirt and a neckerchief - both of which the scouts design.

A good picture is defined as much by what's not there as what is. Make a good picture.

 

 

Yep, great post. I agree with most of it, not all.

But, you didn't really address the question. Starting a National program from the bottom doesn't work. Been there done that several times. In fact, as a council JLT Chairman, I was part of a national group of other council training representatives communicating with National on their NYLT development. They didn't use one suggestion from our group.

At this point in the chaos of all the other stuff going on in the BSA, overhauling the Cub program is likely a very low priority.  But, that doesn't mean we can't talk about great ideas. 

Barry

On 2/17/2022 at 9:00 AM, Eagle94-A1 said:

From experience and observation, there is a reason why mountain biking has shorter distances. My troop started working on Cycling MB during COVID using the road biking options. Spent a year working up to the 50 mile trip and did it successfully. 3 of the Scouts decided to do the mountain biking program at summer camp a month and a half after doing the 50 mile bike trip.

THEY. WERE. OVERWHELMED. AND. EXHAUSTED. AND.QUIT. AFTER.THE.FIRST.DAY! (MAJOR EMPHASIS)

Again these were three Scouts who had spent a year road cycling with the troop and on their own. They completed the 50 miles in the time frame ( with anywhere from 45 to 80 minutes to spare), and the downhill mountain biking trail completely exhausted them.

My doctor told me that if I want to prevent replacing my knees with artificial knees, I had to give up running, backpacking and mountain biking. Road biking is how I get my exercise now..

Barry

24 minutes ago, qwazse said:

P.S. - that doesn’t mean that Venturing wasn’t a wild ride. It is a thoroughly enjoyable program, but the leadership overhead is far more than most adults can support and youth desire.

This is the problem. Venturing Crews are generally started by adults with the passion for the activities. And more often than not, these are adults burned out with the troop program. But, once the sons and daughters of those passionate adults move on, so do the parents and they leave a void of adult leadership with the same passion. The average life of a Venturing Crew in our district is 3 to 5 years. Troops that create Venturing Crews for their older scout program do a little better, but even they struggle to keep the program active. 

Barry

1 hour ago, BobbyRo said:

As a scout leader you should know by now of The Coalition.Its a group of Scouts that are Leading in the next stages of Safer Scouting for the Youth 

50 minutes ago, BobbyRo said:

I do indeed but I will keep it confidential for the safety of the youth scouts.

So, how should we know?
 

Barry

1 hour ago, MattR said:

Contrast that with a program, linked to on page 1, of encouraging kids to learn how to play. The adults don't burn out because they're not trying to entertain kids while going over a bunch of repetitive activity pins. The kids do what they're naturally good at, they play. They make up games. They solve people problems. They look out for younger kids. The adults learn to back off. It also takes fewer adults.

Imagine those kids transferring to a troop. They would already have the skills to be in a patrol. Given some options they could pick the skills they wanted to learn. The parents would already understand to let the scouts deal with issues.

This describes the program our pack experimented with and it turned out very very successful as you expected. Sadly, the leaders who gained the knowledge from the experiment moved on and were replaced by leaders who didn’t grow from the experience. Not their fault, new leaders are expected to follow BSA published guidelines.

I ran into the same problem with youth leadership development experiments. Without a supported published standard of guidelines or syllabus, different ideas fade with future generations.

Big changes have to come from the top. So, how can we influence the top to make changes?

Barry

17 minutes ago, BobbyRo said:

As a scout leader you should know by now of The Coalition.Its a group of Scouts that are Leading in the next stages of Safer Scouting for the Youth 

How should we know? Is it in training? Is district sending leaders information? Do you have a source?

Barry

I can’t say what is hurting scout membership today because there are to many new variables with adding girls, bankruptcy, and COVID. But, 10 years ago I could show the biggest membership killer in the BSA was the Cubscout program. Less than 30% of Tigers end up joining a troop.

While I believe National has made some bad policy decisions on the troop program over the last 30 years, the program over all doesn’t have big membership drops after a scouts first year. While history does show some troop membership drops, the number is difficult to analysis because much of the drop is mostly reflective of Cub membership trends.

If the Cub program were changed to where 50% of tigers made it to troops, it would be a huge increase for all the BSA programs.

Barry

58 minutes ago, MattR said:

And the irony is this isn't a very elegant way to help

Quit right! I reread my post and saw my words differently. My apologies to all.

I was looking at this as 2 friends at a campfire where the context would have been seen with a smile. But that’s where social media fails.

Again, my apologies.

have a great day.

Barry

11 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Declining membership...  As much as it pains me to say, I don't think what BSA is offering what is wanted today.

Cub School talks...  A DE or other representative comes in and talks to the kids.  They come out excited they are going to shoot BB Guns, Archery, Fishing, Camping.  The pay their money,,,

The first thing we do is tell em they have these 12 words to memorize and this other oath they gotta memorize and recite it all the time.  Also, go take this online class about how the internet works and then these uncomfortable scenarios in this little book.  We promise we will get to camping and BB Guns and stuff soon.  We promise.   Oh yeah, sorry... we can't shoot BB Guns or a Bow and Arrow unless you pay more money to go to a certain camp where its allowed.  If you can't go there, well sorry, I don't know what to tell you.

Then... we have meetings where we do everything other than fishing or camping, or hiking, or all that other stuff they were promised in that school talk.  And in the infinite wisdom of the BSA has decided that the cost of rewarding all that comes out to about $30 a year when you add up the belt loops and other awards.

Then, we tell all the parents that have absolutely no experience working with kids OR any Scouting experience...  What position do you want to sign up for and help out?

That's when you stop seeing them showing up to any event.   I am not saying any of its right, just my observation of the past 5 years.   

The ones that do stay, I get asked A LOT... "What do I get for that"?  Well, you get the knowledge you just learned that will help you be better next time.  You get to know you did the right thing for someone.  Kids are so used to get getting a sticker, candy, pencil, or whatever, every time they they turn around they are unable to comprehend doing something just because they might learn a skill or something to improve their character.

Once again, I don't believe this and I do hate it, but.... In these times, no one cares about Trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, etc.  We live in a very selfish society and I am just not sure it resonates. 

 

You’re doing it wrong. As qwazse is so eloquently saying, passion of scouting comes from doing scouting. Growth of being trustworthy, loyal, helpful comes from the experiences of scouting, not from quoting the Scout Law.

If a scout is asking what does he get for that, he probably shouldn’t be doing that because he is not being rewarded with fun. Scouts will eventually learn to recite the Oath and Law after reciting them a hundreds times at a hundred scout activities. Your challenge is getting them to come to those hundred activities.

Barry

39 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

This is pretty much how we run our program.  No advancement focused outings (though we do things on outings that shockingly can be used), and time for unstructured activities.

At summer camp we have them do the MB classed in the morning, after lunch, go have fun.  Every summer we have to talk some parents down off the ledge that summer camp fun is measured by completed merit badges.  That's not how this works (or shoudn't)

Typically some activity in the morning, like hike a gorge, kayak, wide game, etc.  Afternoon are options to continue, nap., go beat on stuff with sticks.

Non structured play is almost a lost art these days

 

Us to, but we found the 15 an older scouts are getting serious about Eagle and go more for the MBs. Not that they don't have fun, we plan a lot of troop activities within the summer camp program like our own campfire and shooting sports or something. And we usually do something fun on the way home like river rafting, Six Flags or something between camp and home. 90% of our 15 and older scouts keep going to summer camp. 

Barry

1 hour ago, sierracharliescouter said:

In my experience, advancement is only a "black hole" if advancement is a high priority of the troop. Some troop push advancement more than others. Ours does not. I'd like to think we do a pretty good job at being boy-led. That means we sometimes end up with a 3rd year scout who is still tenderfoot. We had one of those a few years ago, yet he still managed to finish Eagle (it was a heart-attack Eagle, but he did finish!). It has to be up to the scout, and to some extent the parents of course, on how important advancement is for them. Or at the least look for a troop that doesn't push advancement if that isn't likely going to work out well for the scout. 

They all mature at different rates and have different priorities and interests. The program is flexible enough to recognize that, when used properly.

Yep, agree. I would say the majority of our Eagles don't get serious about it until at least 15. They are having too much fun. We have a lot of 17 year old ECOHs.

Barry

18 hours ago, MattR said:

Maybe it's time for the BSA to eat crow and admit they don't have it all figured out.

😂

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

If you wish to have this "on your record", then you will need to go thru the paperwork process.

Did you know you each adult has an official awards record as well?  If you are on good terms with your registrar, you should ask for your own record. 

Please be mindful of your registrar's time; I do not recommend you ask for this frivolously.

Things may have changed in the last 20 years with the technology, but inaccurate training records, as well as scout advancement records, was not unusual.

Barry