Eagledad

Happy Scouting All >>A few sessions with one or more older scouts who take several minutes to emphasize the importance of miding ones own belongings and request the scout do better in the future will do more than years of an adult doing the same.

What a great subject. I like the Northern Tier idea but what makes that difficult, not impossible, is the max limit of eight man crews. However, one of our Philmont crews, which can be much larger, invited another local troop and they had a blast. Between that and taking two dads who had never camped with thier sons before, this crew had a wonderful experience. Our Troop has planned and organized a few Troop-o-ees. Same as a camporee except it is one troop inviting a few other troops to compete for a fun filled weekend. We did a night time Trooporee theme, also a lot of fun. I found this experience advanced the maturity of our boy run program more than any other troop activity. We invited Troops from Texas, Kansas and other Oklahoma Councils. The other troops had so much fun that they went and planned their own Trooporees, of which we were invited. This is a really good subject, I hope folks learn more from it. Barry

Hi All You will have a great time, I really enjoy the Northern Tier. I'm not sure I can point out advantages or disadvantages, but instead differences. With an outfitter, you won't get a guide, unless you pay a lot. If you have never been before, you may want one just to get a feel for how to portage and navigate. If someone in your Troop has this experience already, I don't think you need to worry about a guide. Mosquitoes are a good question, but you will always have them to some degree. So I think the better focus are the mayflies. Ideally the fishing is a lot better before they hatch, which I think is mid July. Someone will have to verify that. But fishing went almost to nothing after they hatched. Other suggestions are get the lightest canoes possible. The Kevlars are around 38lbs and well worth it. I think the BSA camp also provides them now. Take good tested rain gear, not ponchos. It can make the difference between a great trip and a bad one. Consolidate tents as much as possible. Many of the campsites are very small, at least on the Canadian side. Before you go on your trip, practice canoeing, loading and unloading the canoes, entering and exiting the canoes and picking them up and carrying them. It is likely that your crew will portage three or four times on your first day. That will be a very long day if your crew is learning the techniques for the first time. Just picking up a canoe takes practice. So plan two or three trips to a local lake and have and experienced person teach everyone the proper techniques and protocols in the Northern Tier. Protocol is important because you are likely to meet other crews on your first day as other crews are entering and exiting the lakes. So if you dont know what you are doing, it will be a very testing day on patience. On our last trip, our crew ran into a Troop of Girls Scouts wearing only bikinis on the first portage. Our crew had plenty of practice, yet for some reason that portage still didnt go very well for either crews. Those scouts still talk (brag) about that portage. Barry

>>Without a doubt, SPL is the hardest role. Is ASPL as hard as SPL.

Great Monday All >>I also like to let the Scout holding the particular position to tailor the position responsibility to his strong suits.

Great Friday All Boy, there are some really good replies. I agree EagleInKy, this is a symptom of other problems problems. I found two life skills the scouts seem to have a really hard time mastering, communication and delegating. I once had a mom so frustrated by the boys method of communicating that she wanted to take it completely over. I asked her at what point in her sons life she felt it was OK for him to learn communcition. She siad when she was good and ready. She left the troop committee three months later. Do to the internet and cell phones, I find our youth today have terrible communication skills. We actually had a communication course in our JLT just to teach how to talk to folks on the other end of a phone. Our guys are required to call MB Counselers and we could see they needed a starting place. Boy run is frustrating and requires a lot of patience. But it does work. Great subject. Barry

Very cool! I love this scouting stuff.

Good Point. My best friend was the SM in our troop before me. One campout my son forgot the stove in his patrol. I thought we adults felt the weekend was a real success for them because they ended up cooking over the fire all weekend and had a blast. The other patrols actually envied them. Sunday night our families met at the church Youth Christmas Play. When my friend's wife sat down next to us, she greeted us by saying "So your son pulled a really jackass move this weekend". That really hurt our family and I always remembered that. I tried and hope that I didn't say anything like that to my family. But it is hard to talk about some scouts behavoirs in positive terms. Barry

Good Point. My best friends was the SM in our troop before me. One campout my son forgot the stove in his patrol. I thought we adults felt the weekend was a real success for them because they ended up cooking over the fire all weekend and had a blast. The other patrols actually envied them. Sunday night our families met at the church Youth Christmas Play. When my friends wife

Great Subject KS Our family really enjoys dinnertime because we get to sit and talk about everything. It's not unusual for us to sit at the table for over an hour. That being said, with four of our family registered to the troop, scouting was not allowed at the table. Barry

Hello All We were doing this when I was SM with the new parents. We observed that most of the problems and complaints that came from the new scouts was mostly due to the parents misunderstandings with the program. So we asked the parents, or at least a parent of each new scout to participate in the three training sessions followed with at least two months of observering the program with the New Scout ASM. The ASM would take the parents to different parts of the program like the PLC meeting, patrol corners, planning meetings, SM conferences, BORs and what ever was going on during the meetings that would help the parents understand the program. The SM would sit down with the parents for a few minutes while the scouts were playing games to answer any questions the parent had. This seemed to help us a lot in solving misunderstandings the parents had about the program. I can also say that the questions help me as a SM get better at explaining the values of the Methods toward the Aims, and what exactly we mean by the Aims. Works very well. Barry

>>It will be interesting to see if Bush really does all that much on those issues or if (as I predict) he will focus on issues near and dear to the old-line Republicans, like taxes.

>>Those 10 boys can work themselves to death in an effort to better the program, but the other 20 are going to stand as an impediment to progress at every turn.

>>You cant be the best show in town without commitment. Youll never become the best show in town without demanding commitment. And thats just something we dont do.

>>The difference in our posts is that Barry thinks he has changed from the scouting program and I am saying that what he did was change closer to the scouting program and that is why it is working better.

Good Oklahoma Morning All >>What disturbs me is that, in the situation you refer to, what the unit was doing originially wasn't anything like the BSA program and they thought it was. So they changed it to work better.

I've seen Councils that gave out special Council shoulder patches for Troops that did extra requirements added to the Quality Unit award. Barry

Very good points and ones that I have thought on as well. It was the Girls Scouts that showed me a lot of this. Like I said, they are very successful at this age. First the burnout part which is the most important part to me. The Tiger program struggles because the boys don't fit in the maturity of the rest of the pack. The Tiger program needs to be at a much simpler activities. I've seen some very successful Tiger programs where they only met once or twice a month. The plannning was done by families where each family took on one month. In fact no family planned more than two meeting in the tiger year in our Pack. In the Girl Scout model there is no Pack meetings so that takes pressure off the Cub Master. The Girls Scouts don't have the burnout problem we have because they switch programs every three years like the BSA use to do until the 80's. The program change encourages leadership changes, kind of like what we see between the Pack and the Troop. I don't know your reason for not going before first grade, but the reason I suggest that is because the maturity is the same for both age groups and there are some families that want a program for the family at that age. In my dream world, Tigers would just go away. It hasn't worked easily into the program because of the difference in maturity. The only reason Tigers was created was to compete against Campfire Kids who started recruiting boys in the first grade to get boys before cubs. But their program is doing worse than the BSA. I have a friend who got some numbers that was a real surprise to me. He said Nationaly only one scout out of eleven makes it from Tigers to Webelos II. I've been told the highest loss of Cubs scouts accures at the Tiger age. I don't know if that is true Nationally. It is true in my area. Good response NJ. How do you feel about Tigers? Barry

Hi All Hypothetical Pipe Dreams, Cool. I have two. First, I would take Tigers out of the Cub program and create a new two-year program for kindergarten and first grade aged scouts. The crossover rate of Webelos to Troops is less than 50% of and the Tigers program has the lowest crossover rate of any Cub age. Many Cub leaders say that the Tiger program is the most demanding part of the pack program because the maturity of Tiger age boys is so different from the rest of the Pack ages. Tiger age scout are at the age where they cant read, write and havent developed the discipline to sit still for more than 10 minutes. And through the years I found the major cause of the Webelos crossover problem is burned out leaders. Experts say that you get less than three years from your better adults in volunteer organizations. The Cub program is five years long with the Webelos program the last two years. I meet a lot of parents that want some kind of scout program for their kindergarten age sons. The BSA is always looking for ways to recuit numbers and a precub program for kindergarten and First Grade boys would fit better for there maturity. The Girls Scouts do this with great success. My second change would be retiring the Venture Patrols. I believe them to be the most destructive part of the Troop program because they create a clear division between younger and senior scouts. Not only just in age, but because their very name implies adults and scouts to go into the older scout program with the idea of getting away from the from the rest of troop. These patrols force more adult hands on intervention at all levels of the troop, and they retard scout leadership development and overall scout growth. The troops I see that do best with Venture Patrols are the very large troops, 100 scouts or more, because those troops require a lot of adult intervention anyway to control the scouts. I would like to see the BSA get back to Leadership patrols for senior scout leaders and create a new type of temporary patrol called Adventure Crews. Troop Adventure Crews would not be aged based, but instead limited only by the physical and mental requirements needed for that adventure. This would allow any scout to organize a crew for anything from a day at six flags all the way to treks at Philmont or Northern Tier. The crew leaders would have to plan, find adults, and train for the adventure if required. The advantage of the Adventure Crews are they take away limits and restrictions on the Troop outdoor program and give scouts the ability to plan any adventure they can dream. The crews would expand the opportunities of leadership development, planning skills development and expand scout growth. While I dont like them, you could even have Adventure crews in a troop with aged based patrols. Troops I know with a similar program have very low turnover at all ages, very high leadership skills and high advancement because now advancement gets back to scouts ranking themselves by skills that they learn, not by the stature of the rank. There is no advantage to adults having to push scouts to advance with in a time limit because the program naturally encourages scouts to learn more skills and advance. It gets back to more boys controlling their personal agendas in the troop. It makes the troop a lot of fun and enhances the methods. Barry

Hi All >>How do you make the notes important? How do you muster some ambition in the scribe to take his job seriously and make a difference in the troop?

Hi All >>We do weekly PLCs, too. They're standups, right after the meeting's over with and the service Patrol's cleaning up. SPL reviews the meeting and goes over the TMP for next week.

Hi FScout >>Either they need more meeting time, or adult intervention, and adults taking over doesn't teach leadership. Your approach sounds like something we might try.

Hi All I think ideas for program improvements is a good topic that can have positive effects in other units. Sorry that Im starting it under a new subject title, but as we say in Oklahoma, That other water was looking pretty sour, so Im fishing a new pond. I hope to keep this thread in a positive tone. One program change we made that really boosted our boy run program was going from monthly PLC meetings to weekly. After three years of monthly meetings, the youth leaders just werent growing as much as we thought were capable. The SPLs never seem to gain complete control of the meeting, both in format and controlling the group and they didnt seem to build much more confidence from one meeting to the next. Our monthly meetings always went about two hours long with the last 45 minutes not being very productive. I guess males just arent designed to stay focused that long. We struggled with turnout because the meetings were on weekends during other activities. We wanted our scouts to learn how to run meetings better, to control the group better and to have better control of their week to week responsibilities. You think about it, four weeks is a long time for a SPL to wait for report. He can do it by phone, but it just wasnt working very well. And everyone (youth and adults) felt it just wasnt fun. Im a big believer in that if it is not fun, change it. So we started asking what we (adults and scouts) hated about the PLC meeting. To long To boring Hard to find a good time on weekends Gets in the way of weekend activities Not enough of them to get the required work done Hard to track business from month to month So we came up with an idea of a 30 minute PLC meeting each week before the troop meeting. This fits better for most scouts schedules and it wasnt boring any more because it is a full 30 minutes that goes by fast. Also the agenda is easier because now most of the items were discussed on a weekly basis, not monthly. The weekly format gives the SM more time to monitor and work with the scouts, which means more practice of leadership skills. The SPL loved it because now he could keep up with the officers duties on a weekly basis. After a year of getting use to the format, we found the members of the PLC doubled their rate of developing leadership skills. Our SPLs were so good at running meeting that I would put them up against any meeting run at your Town Council, church or business. The Patrol Leaders were a lot better because they started duplicating the PLC meeting into the Patrol Corners. The SPL could keep up with the Patrols performance a lot easier now and work better with them. Group behavior quadrupled as they became a really close team. The SPL got so good at leading the meeting that most meetings are only 20 minutes long now. The program matured faster from this one change than anything change I look back on. Honestly I cringe for troops that still have one meeting a month. I just dont see how a troop can be very boy run with one PLC meeting a month. I remember one of my SPLs who was on his high school student council tell me how they couldnt get anything done. He said that he tried to help the student council president with a suggestions on running a meeting, but the adult advisor told him that they were fine as it was. He told me that was the first time he realized that not all adults have the leadership skills that you get in Boy Scouts. I didnt say anything, but I was thinking he still had more surprises down the road. Comments? Oh, have I mentioned how love this scouting stuff. Barry

Thanks Bob, but here is why I stand by what I said for this troop. First, Leaving the room doesn't mean you don't monitor them. It's as I like to say, standing in the shadows. The main thing here is to get out of the scouts field of view so the act from their nature or training, not from intimidation of what they think the adult wants. Second, If you are tempted by candy, stay out of the candy store. Right now I feel the adults are in training themselves. Leaving the room forces them to let the scouts perform without the temptation of interupting. It's easy to watch a program perform well without jumping in, but it takes a lot of practice to develop the disapline to let things fall apart and wait until after the activity or meeting to do your adult scouting thing. The adults need to get away from the scouts. As I said, the adults need to grow as much as the scouts. One example is the PLC meeting that we talked about a few weeks ago. Leave all the adults except that scoutmaster in the hall. And as far as I'm concerned, the SM should be out in the hall as well listening allowing the scouts to do there thing. Resist walking in until the SPL comes for him. Don't worry, you won't have to wait very long. New leaders lack the skills to control the crowed, he will come and get the scoutmaster. What I did for our SPL was attend his first full meeting to give some confidence and to monitor. After that, I left 10 minutes earlier to give him more time by himself. That is when he will learn the most. By the last two months, the SPL didn't SEE me unless I was called in to give a report or a SM Minute. Barry

Hi All Assuming for the moment that the adults are trying to teach the SPL how to do his job, I would say that this sounds to me like the scouts are lacking in expectations and/or accountibility. Most newer adults go through this because they are learning as well. The adults are giving advice, however they may not be givng the scout the gaols or expectations. Maybe because they don't know, or they havn't yet learned how to give scouts a vision. For example, I want my SPL to follow an agenda for the meeting so he can learn how to complete everything on task and in a budgeted amount of time. Joe, you have 1 hour to get a Minutes of the last meeting from the Scribe. Officer reports for Quartermaster, and Patrol leaders reports. Then older business, new busines and finally a Scoutmaster minute. In just a few minutes teach the SPL the agenda and what goes in each subject. Then let him go. Use the SPL handbook here while teaching the scout so he can go back to the book and his notes. The other part is accountibility. It sounds like the adults are letting the scouts screw up, but not letting them suffer the consequenses. Nothing motivates learning more than the pressure of owning up to bad performance. Joe, how did the program go tonight? Why do you think it went that way? What can we do different next time to do it better? It kind of sounds like the adults are trying, they just haven't figured out what to teach the scout (expectation). They need to get out of the room while the scouts peform so the youth leaders feel the pressure of bad performance and as a result a motivation to ask for guidence. It may be that adults first need to learn how to ask the questions to get the scouts started talking. If they are waiting for the scouts, there are little tricks to getting them to ask for help. But they can't jsut go out and save the day everytime things look bad or else the scouts just figure it doesn't matter what they do, or don't do, the adults will get the job done. Remember, a troop is the real world scaled down to a boys size. If you don't do a job you've been hired to do in the real world, who is going to save you day? One last thing, adults have to learn as much, if not more than the scouts to motivate growth in the troop. Hope this is kind of what ya'll were looking for. I love this scouting stuff. Barry