Eagledad

I guess I approached my responsibilities different, I took the unit the direction I thought it should go. If the unit leaders were on board then all was great. If the didnt, they generally came on board or left. Same goes with District or council, if they helped me reach my goals, I trusted them. If they didnt then we generally carried on without them. It wasnt often we clashed, my program vision was in the boundaries of the BSA vision and my methods werent very far off. And as I learned later, if you have a successful program, provided it isn't dangerous or too far off the reservation, they won't bug you. If I clashed with anyone, it was National and their changes to the program. Specifically the Tiger program and the aged based Patrol method approach. After trying it their way, we just had to finally agree to disagree and our record is much better than theirs. I was also involved with new development of training. National has an interesting style in developing training. But, once I got to look at the program from the opposite side, I started seeing things from a different perspective. Less experienced scouters tend to look at District Committee folks as experienced and somewhat skilled at their responsibility. Turns out that 7 out of 10 arent that experienced and I would say half dont have clue. But these are good hard working people with good hearts that want to help advance the program and holes need to be filled with some kind of peg. So I have a better understanding of the challenges of Council and the DE. I also had a better respect for the challenges of the District leaders and the DE when I started working with horrible unit leaders. Some dont care at all for the scouts, they only took the job to be in charge of something in their life. But district is left with the choice bad leadership or no unit for scouts to join. Its a tough choice. And while we are passionate about our own unit programs and respect other styles less, once you sit in a position where you can see success based on producing excited happy scouts, you start to look at the heart of each program and its leaders instead of the program style. Some scouts just flourish in an Eagle Mill. Is that really so bad? The bible says humility is required for wisdom. I understand that now. Same goes with council. Ive been here long enough to work under a bad council leadership and good council leadership. Its a huge difference. Then there is walking in the shoes of National. We tend to think of National as one entity, but the reality is that National is lots of little entities working independently. Some are good and some arent. I will say that while I do respect the challenges of running a national size program with national size struggles. And while I may or may not agree with the direction they are taking, I do respect that paid professionals have a different motivation than volunteers. Survival is human and I dont think that is wrong from their perspective. But, I just dont feel there is really good vision or organization leadership from the top. So trust, I dont know. Its true what they say about walking a mile in someone elses shoes. After doing it as long as I have, I can honestly say I like this scouting stuff and I respect a lot more folks now than I did when I started. Whether you are paid or not, working in a volunteer organization is hard at all levels. Barry

>>Barry, It's all just a prelude to the world ending in 2012.

Earthquakes, tornados and flooding, Oh My! Exciting night, we had a 4.7 earthquake, a pretty good tornado and lots of flooding from the torrential rain. I didnt feel the earthquake because I was driving home in the rain, but my wife did and she said it felt like a slightly smaller train than the one this weekend. I will have to do some research because I dont have a good feel for the Richter scale numbers. Apparently this 4.7 did enough damage to close a school. I really cant complain about the four inches of rain, Oklahoma is in its worst drought in recorded history. So we take what we can get and are glad for it. I could do without tornados, but that just seem to be part of Oklahoma. Still, I wonder whats next, a volcano eruption in a nearby wheat field? Barry

Wow, central Oklahoma had two pretty big earthquakes this weekend. This is a new experience for us. Rocking and rolling for about 30 seconds with the second one big enough to do a little damage. I didnt feel the second one because we have season tickets for Oklahoma State Football and the stadium was rocking and rolling as well. But I knew it was pretty big because I was talking to my wife on the phone when it hit and she was a little panicky. You dont think 58,000 people yelling, screaming and stomping their feet trying to save a football team from loosing could have caused the earthquake, do you? We did sqeeze out a win but, well I don't know. My wife and I like to travel a little and when folks ask where we are from, when they hear we are from Oklahoma, they typical response, "Oh they place with all the tornados". Are we now going to be from the place with tornados AND earthquakes? Can you folks in California give us some instructions on what to do during these things? Where should we go if we are in our home or in a stadium with 58,000 other people? Should we make a fun noises like when we were kids crossing railroad tracks? Can we get earthquake insurance? Oh by the way, the weatherman this morning says we are under a server thunderstorm and tornado watch today and tonight. Ah! That feels more normal. Have a great Scouting Week. Barry

Here is some real Hope and Change. ""Sixty Senators Decry 'Wildly Imprudent' Bonuses at Fannie, Freddie"" http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/11/04/sixty-senators-decry-wildly-imprudent-bonuses-at-fannie-freddie/

>>I'm curious, JoeBob. What do yeh think of da bailout CEOs gettin' 8-figure bonuses?

>>I think a lot of folks are projecting or being told what the OWS crowd is for or against. Much of that is thier own fault because they havn't done a good job of communicating a specific message.>They are going to have to act like something other than a bunch of derelicts to do it, though.

Your big problem is who the Gate Keeper of the vision is in the troop. There is someone who is going to drive the program. Usually that is the adult with the stronger opinion. I look at as the unit Alpha Adult. You need to identify that person and see what there vision is and how they think the program should get there. Of course training and experience is a big part, but if the SM didnt train the new SM during the last year or two, there may not be a co-understanding of the program. I started training my replacement two years before I left by having him participate in each ASMs job. And I took many walks with him to explain why he was seeing what he saw. If your adults dont really have a good common understanding of the goals and methods to those goals, I think you should volunteer to do some Unit Adult Training of the Aims and Methods and how Your troop is doing that. Our troop does that very class after each SPL election and I asked every parent to attend. Im glad youre thinking this way not to head off future problems. Good luck. Barry

This has been a good discussion. I cringe for you folks that struggle with these problems because Ive been there and done that and its not fun. It is a character developing experience that I feel almost develops too much character. I think this group has it figured out. The best way to prevent large groups from struggling with different philosophies of program is to bring in like minded families. Its interesting to learn that in study of successful Fortune 500 companies, the number one common application for success of the most successful companies was a model of only hiring employees that agreed with the companys vision. In other words they didnt hire just anyone, they only hired those who believed in the same vision. That is what we eventually came to doing by giving all visiting scout families long verbal explanations from the adults and SPL of the program, and a parents guide that explain in detail our troop vision, how we go about implementing that vision and details of the troop program. The parents guide basically includes much of what John-in-KCs list included. Of course there is the risk of not getting as big of New Scout group, but you dont end up with unit splitting from disagreeing philosophies. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Its important that any adult who wants to get involved in the program be assigned tasks and given reasonable expectations of performance for the task. But its important to bring in the right person to do the right job. They rarely speak about it, but the number one frustration of Council and district leaders is volunteers taking on responsibilities that they don't perform. The troop is no different. I'm a pretty good recruiter, but I learned over the years to try and put the right person in for the right job, or you just end up frustrated. I also learned over the years that people don't change,s so don't repeat your mistakes. Fail me once, shame on you. Fail me twice, shame on me. Barry

>>SM training has helped a number of ASM's see the light.

>>I visualize these parents as a great flock of helicopters flying off to bother their new SM.

I'm surprised the obvious hasn't been mentioned, the addition of women leaders. Yes, I also come from the generation of skinny dipping in the creek at summer camp. The adults didn't do it with us, but I can't remember them hanging around at all anyway. I also don't remember showers. I do however remember not being allowed in the house after summer camp with any of my clothes and being escorted by my mom strait from the garage to the shower. Can't remember why. Fast forward 20 something years to my first campout as a Cub Scout leader (Webelos summer camp) attending that same camp I attended as a youth where we skinny dipped to hide the heat of the day. My first shock was womens restrooms. Not to long after that was the shock of WOMEN! Don't get me wrong, I wasn't challenging the idea of women leaders, I just wasn't ready to see it at my old camp. The next day of swimming was a little surprising as well, one of the Webelos Leaders was a younger very attractive brunette. I can say that because she had the full attention from most of the teenage Boy Scout staff who told us that she was a young very attactive brunette. I hadn't noticed myself, but my coleader, who was also a very active scout as a youth, looked at me and said what I was feeling, we arent in Kansas anymore. It was a surreal, the camp director was a women, much of her adult staff were women. They were very good at their job and ran a very good camp, but it just wasnt what we were expecting from a Boy Scout summer camp, even a Webelos Boy Scout summer camp. To top off the week, all the adults were ordered to a meeting one night in the dinning hall. Dinning Hall, that wasnt there 25 years ago, whats that all about? Anyway the camp director wasnt happy and gave us a stern lecture on youth protection rules and the seriousness behind them. Hey, I had only been a scouter for a month, this was the first I had heard of youth protection. Anyway apparently some adult had violated the rules by mixing with the boys in the shower. My co leader and I looked at each other than shrugged. We werent really sure what the problem was because that was pretty normal when we were scouts. Even with the cut brunette with her trail of Boy Scouts following her around, we still didnt clue into the idea of females in camp. Details werent given, but we scouters, parents really, felt the impact of the camp directors stern words. She was very serious and confusion was also in order. Well as it turns out, it was a mother who went into the showers to check on her scouts that cause the scandal. The boys were spending a little more time in the showers laughing, yelling and just having a good ol time, and frankly she just wasnt used to boys wanting to get that clean. But like a normal mom, she noticed the boys clothes on the dirty floor and like most mothers she hung around awhile to pick them up. She was just being a mother doing what most mothers do and that was pick up behind their kids. W Both my co leader and I almost quit scouts after that camp, but the discussion of things being different in the Troop kept us going and as it turns out, both of us were Scoutmasters of successful programs. Now if you watch close enough, there are plenty of books out today that in one way or another speak on the feminization of males in America. Im not getting into if it is good or bad, the discussion even comes up in this forum now and then. But, comparing my experience as a youth in scouts and today, we have certainly feminized the male culture. The scouting program as a whole has been feminized and there is no going back as far as I can see because close to 50% of the scouters are moms. Im one of those males that believe that boys should go through some rights of passage to grow into healthy adult males. Im not talking about secret rituals with drums and war paint, although that would be cool. Im talking about the experience of going to the bathroom in the woods. Men and boys sharing the showers without the idea that it is risky or wrong and 200 men and boys sleeping together overnight in a gymnasium on their way to Philmont. Even boys skinny dipping in the stream to cool off from the 105 degree hot summer day. However, guys, those days are just about gone. If you dont thinks so, just ask your wife. Barry

>>So...since my son spend the majority of all his waking hours ar school...I wonder if he is going to turn into an educator? Or maybe he will turn into a coach?

>>Eagledad - if your going to pick on his lack of facts, but just pure emotion you forgot one..

Always and interesting discussion: >>(a) "gay people do not choose to be gay.">© to my great consternation, science does not help us. There is no definitive scientific answer to the causes of male and female homosexuality.

We solved the problem of knots by assigning one of the Committee Members to track and prepare paperwork for all the scouters. We do that not so much to make sure everyone gets knots, but to make sure the adult records are kept up to date on the council record. You would be surprised how many scouters five or ten years down the road are asked to track the past record for various reasons, Council recognition being one. Knots are pretty clear, but District Awards have their own issues. Its not unusual for the same units to be awarded the same district recognitions every year simply because the other units don't even apply. Folks ask here all the time how they can recognise the hard work of a volunteer in their unit. Unit and district recognition awards are very good and easy ways of doing that. I personally don't wear knots, but I was very humbuled to recieve awards to be recognized by the pack and troop that I recieved on their behalf. I don't wear them on my shirt, but I cherish my Adult Religious Award presented by the Pack and my Scoutmaster Award of Merit presented by the PLC. I have many others like everyone else who puts in their time, but those are special. Barry

Boy, I wish my experiences were as clear cut. But the vast vast majority of calls that Council get and that you folks will likely encounter are situation where there is a fuzzy line between abuse or just two different opinions on the situation. And, the discussion here has been about adult abusers, but in this day and age, I would guess a 3rd of the calls Council receives are reports on scouts. I have been involved and observed a few Youth Protections issues and there is a lot at stake if they are not handled correctly. What if the police were called first and it turned out only a misunderstanding? That adult, scout or parent could risk getting a reputation that will follow them for a long time. It can be very stressful holding the responsibility of ruining a persons life, so everything must be done appropriately to make sure the act is put in the appropriate category of response. And, as I have found, each situation is different. There are times that calling the SE first is the right course of action so as not to over react, but to get another opinion from a source of experience. I have heard a scouter say more than once boy, Im glad I called you first. Also, council in general is not going to always act first even when you report abuse. Right or wrong, my experience is that with lesser abuse situations, they typically will just monitor the unit to see how it gets handled. So dont assume that once you call the SE, the ball is out of your court. Likely if you assume that, nothing will get done and you may still have a danger in your unit. Be proactive and bring ONLY the very few folks who must be involved to develop a course of action. But its also important to understand that 98% of these things can be handled appropriatly in the unit. I know we are reading a lot of I would do this and I will do that if this happens to us on the forum here, but my observation is that unit leaders typically do just the opposite and procrastinate, even to the point of nothing getting done or just letting it go away. Its normal, we arent trained for these kinds of things and so we dont want to get involved. But in most situations, time makes things worse and could give opportunity for the threat to repeat itself. Be proactive to Protect your scouts. Barry

Loving your neighbor does not mean accepting their sins. Living the scout law is a guide to how we treat everyone respectfully, it is not a contract to ignore bad behavior. Barry

SMs have the power to bring these things to the District committe. Actually the Key 3 handled these things. In this situation, the board member was a very respected SM (200 scouts), District Committee member and a very big district fund raiser. But he caused problems in the council by throwing his weight around. I think he saw the writing on the walls with my letter because I was told he didn't resist when the committee asked him to quit the project review board, which was unusual for him. I don't think he liked the reputation he was making in the council. For my part, I didn't know who the board member was when I sent the letter. We were both friends on the district committee but if he had not quit, I would have pressed much harder for some kind of change. I was not the only SM writing letters. Barry

>>How can they choose if they are discriminated against and can't do boy or girl things, but just co-ed things??

>Along with teaching my boys that anyone over the age of 18 is addressed as Mr. or Ms., I also taught them that when they have the need to contradict an adult, they preface the comment with, "With all due respect...."

Well here you go: http://www.9news.com/news/article/226301/188/Boy-wanting-to-join-Girl-Scouts-told-no >>Recently, Archuleta wanted to sign Bobby up for Girl Scouts. His older sister did it, and Bobby really wanted to join. Archuleta told 9NEWS when she brought Bobby to register, a troop leader told her Bobby couldn't join. "I said, 'Well, what's the big deal?' She said 'It doesn't matter how he looks, he has boy parts, he can't be in Girl Scouts. Girl Scouts don't allow that [and] I don't want to be in trouble by parents or my supervisor,'" Archuleta told 9NEWS.

I guess I have worked with enough of these scouts and their families to not see a problem in your situation. If the mother needs your help with her son, she will approach you. If the other parents have some concern, they will approach you. More than once I have approached the parents of scouts who act a little different to walk away from the discussion feeling like the fool because they didnt think it was any of my business. When a critical situation arises and you need the help of the family, that will then be the time to approach them. But as far as I can see, the scenario you described doesnt warrant it yet. I used to have the exact same situation you described with new Tigers and I handled them about the same as you did with your scout. Boys of that age are still toddlers and they just dont have the maturity yet to stay seated for 15 minutes strait. Anyway, a few years later I was talking to the wife of a scoutmaster friend and she told me her husband got involved in scouting because he liked how interacted with those Tiger cubs at the pack meetings. I didnt ask how that could have motivated him to become a scouter because I dont take complements well, but as others have said, I think your role model of how you interact with these scouts is the best way to show scouting at its best. My advice is simply keep up the great work with this scouting stuff and dont seek out more than is really needed in these situations. Barry

Well done Buffalo Skipper. Our troop also worked to teach light weight back packing to all the scouts. You seem to have taken it to an even high level, but I can say that technology has improved a lot even in the last 10 years. Our troop is a backpacking troop and except for the tents, the scouts use the same light weight backpacking equipment on our mounthly campouts as they do on their high adventure trips. One of the struggles for a new scouts is the investment in the equipment. Many families cant come up with the money for good backpacking equipment. So we spent a lot of time researching and watching for sales. Non cotton moisture repelling clothing is pretty common now even at Walmart. But 20 years ago that was expensive and hard to find. So when Campmor and REI had big sales we jumped on them. And we even found discounts stores now and then. Our crews looked pretty rag tagged on treks. But the big challenge was the sleeping bags and backpacks. Its nice to hear that a 20 degree bag can be had for $70 today, even if it isnt the best quality. That same back was $120. But the big thing was backpacks. Since we were a backpacking troop, our new scouts had to learn quickly how to use them. That sounds easy, but in reality learning to properly pack a pack takes practice. Plus the added problem of growth spirts most scout go through between age 12 and 14 also limits the investment of packs. So we develop the routine of suggesting new scouts get either the Jansport or Kelty entry level packs that cost us around $70. We found that packed properly, a scout could carry up 4500 ci of gear at pretty heavy weights. Those packs were external frame packs with lots of pockets, hooks and loops, which made it easier for a entry level person to pack their gear all over it. We had many of those packs make it through Philmont. About the time the scout added 30lbs and 6 inches in height, they had the experience to jump over to internal frame packs which require good packing skills. And, it was typical for a used starter pack to be on display at a Troop meeting with a for sale sign. I watched my first son's Jansport go on three Philmont treks on three different scouts. What Buffalo Skipper knows is that his scouts are at a different level of Backpacking than most of the Troops and crews they meet. Our crews are always amazed with crews taking off the first morning for the Philmont trails in their brand new look a like gear and 50lb plus packs. They just shake their heads and WHY? There is a lot of personal skills that will develop from camping out of a pack. Boys have to learn how to plan a head, organize and work as a team to get their personal pack light as possible. Its hard to be a slob and pack for a 7 day packpacking trip in the wilderness. Just understanding and knowing how to dress requires a scout to make smart decisions. Scouting for me as an adult is all about developing character and I found that living out of a backpack is a very positive and intense character developing approach. I love this scouting stuff. Barry