Eagledad

Hey, hey, hey, don't let the ramblings of hypocritical discontents taint reality. Anyone can become a hater if they get obsessed with their anger. Despite the many false accusations that have been said on this forum the past few years about scouters, the program and especially it's members are very welcoming all over the country. I have never seen anything close in reality to anger and hate I've seen here. Barry

Culturally and ethnically diverse youth had a lot more opportunities today with the BSA than in the 1950s. Followers of activism were warned and have historical evidence that forcing moral diversity on values baised programs would be liken to throwing out the baby with the bath water. But Activist have their own scortched earth agenda and the followers are sheep who are led by emotion. Trail Life is a logical conclusion for creating a program where none other exist. I don't know much about the program, but the few folks I know considering it will except all culturally and ethnically diverse boys. But they will still be choosy about the adult roll models who lead these young men. Barry

I was pretty sure you were quoting the article, but without quotation marks, it was safer to quote your post. Thanks for the clarification. Barry

Well, ok, I'm enjoying the context of the discussion very much. It's rare to get in deep philosophical and intelectual discussions on this forum because emotions tend to take over. Brewmeister's post is profound to me because it says the issue isn't about tradition and trying to get back to the old ways, it's about understanding why some of the old ways worked. At the root, boys of today are the same of boys of yesterday and we need to understand what makes them tick to understand why the program is more prissy (sissy) or not. I do appreciate Kudus part of the discussion, but sometimes quotes without reasoning just aren't enough. Because of the challenges of WWII, my dad was not only an Eagle, but also a teenage Scoutmaster of his troop back in the early 40's. Through him I can learn what actual scouting was like at least that far back. When I ask him about hiking 14 miles for 1st class, well he laughed. Mind you my dad's troop rarely used vehicles to go camping because of the cost of fuel, they met at the church and hike out of town to their camp site. So it's not like they didn't hike. They were literly a back packing troop. I have a lot of respect for Kudu's vision of scouting and mean no disrepect, but how far back do we have to go to not be prissy or sissy? How far do our sons have to hike alone in the woods over night to prove themselves? As Brewmeister says "We go camping because it is the most useful way of achieving the aims of Scouting". Everything else is just clutter that slows down or even stops that process. I really think that is what Kudu is also trying to say. I would love to ask more questions, but my pragmatic nature sometimes pushes discussions off the edge. So I will just watch and enjoy. Barry

Then we agree, but let's not discuss it here and highjack the thread.

Well guys whatever the program calls itself, if these folks can do a better job for the boys at achieving the same goals, you have to agree it's the right program for them. As for the laser tag restriction, I think that should be discussed in the "is scouting too sissy" discussion.

Your answer Moose may be that it's less about religion and more about freedom and independence to run youth camping scout program. I've talk to a few leaders, who I respect a lot for their boy run program, that are looking at this program with curiosity because they are tired of the burdemsome paperwork and silly restrictions like lazer tag and wagons that take away from building citizens of character and leaders of integrity. Some folks just want to do good scouting and feel that National is gradually pulling them away from it. Barry

LOL, are your familiar with Martin Luther? I believe for a person to grow holy with God, they have to believe ALL of the Bible applies to them. Once we start picking only those things we like, not only do we stray away from God, we encourage others to stray away from God.

I'll give you that the Scoutmaster is in charge of the advancement program within the troop but since the requirements for earning the Eagle rank/award should be the same for all troops - the Scoutmaster should not be setting the bar. I was a Scoutmaster to around 15-20 boys who earned the Eagle rank and I can honestly say that some stuck around to earn silver palms and remained active in troop (youth) leadership and some never returned after they earned the rank except for their ECOH. One of the best Scouts I've ever had the privilege to work with never got past 2nd Class and was a great PL and SPL. The Eagle rank doesn't make the Scout but it is a nice recognition for the Scouts who have completed the requirements. The Scout Spirit requirement is a bar.

I agree with you literally Beav. What I'm saying is a religious person who doesn't believe the religious book is the official guide of their faith is not a follower of the faith. Under that context, a believer doesn't have to be a biblical literalist to be a fundamentalist. It doesn't change the taste of the BBQ for the Christian. Barry

Likely not, that was around the year 2000 and the SE has been gone about 10 years. I didn't think to ask for a copy, I guess because I was still working with the scout. By the way, the last time I heard about the scout, he was an engineer on a nuclear submarine. Barry

We had a saying in our troop, "The Troop should be the kind of place where a boy says, I like myself when I'm here". One year during an annual council conference for district leaders, the SE started the conference by reading a letter from a mother of a scout with severe social disablities. The SE didn't give the name of the troop, but he did say the mothers name, so I knew he was our scout. The letter said something to the effect that her son had no friends outside of scouting. He was picked on all the time at school, and sadly some of the teachers were part of the problem. I did not know it until the letter that her family had to threaten litigation to force some protective actions by the school. The mother continued that the one refuge her son could count on each week was the troop meeting. She said scouting was the one place where her son was treated as an equal and was respected for his contributions to his Patrol. He was a Patrol Leader at the time, which was no big deal to us in the troop, but a huge huge deal to anyone who knew him outside the troop. I admit I felt very proud of our troop at that moment. I knew her son very well and while his personal issues were challenging, we never felt they were at the level his mother described outside the program. Both parents were very active and I finally understood why. After I settled down from patting myself on the back, I saw the bigger picture. It wasn't our troop that was special, it was the Scouting program. I have since tried to explain to adults in training and in forums that when a troop truly encourages living by the Scout Law and Oath, everyone is an equal among their peers. I look back at the challenging scouts while I was SM and it seems we had way more than our fair share. I'm not bragging, awkward and disabled boys are a real challenge and they pull on all our emotions. All of them, and sometimes too much. But there is something to a program where the over all vision hinges on outward actions using the basic traits of selflessness. I remember once reading that Badon Powel's vision for scouting was world peace. After that letter, I finally got it. Barry

Of course you are right. One of the reasons our nation as a whole and certainly many Christians struggle today with morality is because there isn't a central set of core guidelines to hold a person accountible with their moral choices. Didn't use to be that way. Up until around WWII, the average American child learned to read from the Bible. Families didn't have the disposable income they have today, so it was common to use what was laying around the house, which usually included a bible. Even without sunday school, sermons, or parental guidence, past generations inadvertently developed a common set of moral values simply from learning to read. But as American incomes grew, families could afford reading resources outside their homes and slowly the pop culture developed and grew to where youth today basically do what feel's right in the moment. They don't have a common set of guiding principles to hold each other accountable. A poster here once said that it was the moderate Christians who are encouraging our culture. But when he was asked to define a moderate Christian, he didn't answer. Of course not, either a person is a fundimentalist in their faith, or they not following their faith. And the moderates weren't encouraging the change, they were letting it change as a result of their ignorance of common moral guidelines. If a person doesn't know the rules of driving, they will not drive within the boundaries of the rules, even when that is their goal. Like the ignorant driver, a so called moderate basically make's it up as they go along. And since we as a culture nolonger follow a core set of moral principles, we can't hold a others accountible to bad choices. Barry

Oh, you meant qualtity control in a positive context, I understand and agree. Personally I've never seen a scout go shopping for a SM with different standards, it was always the parents. Still, there is a fine line between quality controller and gate keeper.

I'm not sure what you mean by quality control, but who's to say as Scoutmasters that your vision of the ideal Eagle is better or worse than mine? I'm just saying that our culture develops (brainwashes?) who we are. I know my father has a different idea of what an Eagle should be than I do. I imagine my sons have a little different vision that me and I was their SM. So yes, we should take some responsibility (and some embarrassement) for the kinds of Eagles we produce. We can certainly do better, but first we have to agree to what is better. Barry

What the society expects from the Eagle is representative of the time. When I was a scout in the 60s and 70s, OA Arrowmen held the highest honor in our troop. First of all only two scouts a year could be voted by their fellow scouts to be candidates for Ordeal. So only the best of scouts were selected. Ordeals back then sorted out the boy from the outdoorsmen and it would not surprise anyone if the scouts failed. Arrowmen were respected as special forces of scouts. They were the best of the best. Now look at the organization. Not that the Eagle wasn't held in high esteem as well, but even back then the Honor was a personal quest of climbing through requirements. I do agree with MattR that it's the SM who sets the bar on the Eagle in each unit, but I disagree that better training would produce better Eagles. The Eagle respresents a vision of the perfect scout. For some Scoutmasters the perfect Eagle is a woodsman who can survive in the wilderness for months. For others the Eagle is man of character that doesn't let temptation get the best of him. And then for others, the Eagle is the Gold Ring that represents accomplished academia. What is the true Eagle? You can't train visions in or out of someone, you can only train them to follow the directions of advancement. But for the most part, our culture instills what most of us consider are traits of a good citizen. And my experience is that most Scoutmasters are satisfied if their Eagles just represent a being good citizen of our time. Barry

Spelling...

Moose, it's not fair when you make up your own rules. There aren't three people watching. Barry

My Eagle older son (30 years old) is a 10th grade teacher in a high risk school. He was telling me the other day that after working with four principles and watching four different styles of leadership with varying degrees of success, he is starting understand the life long value of his troop experience. Barry

This is how our scouts were taught, except we didn't add tea, just drank the hot water. I remember our scouts were surprised that the Philmont staff didn't teach this technique. The sytem also teaches you not to burn your food because even tea can't cover that taste up. Barry

Deleted for not being Scout like. Barry

Wow cubdadinnj, you seem have hit all the topics. We will have to agree to disagree on some of them, but I think you are right-on here. The brilliance of the Scout Promise and Law IS that they are supportive of any individuals values because they are outward actions of respect to all others. How many times have I cringed when someone sais that not being inclusive of gays was against the scout law and oath. I would in no way allow a KKK recruiter in my house, but that doesn't prevent me from living up to the full extent of the Oath and Law. The Scout program today can work in any CO because of the brilliance of the Law and Oath as you say, provided the grown ups allow, support, and encourage those virtues. Good post.

Not exactly the same, but you reminded me of something similar. The scoutmaster of one of the best troops in our district once told me that the best scout he ever had never advanced past second class. This scout was a better a camper, leader, and all around scout than any other scout or adult this highly respected SM had ever known. The scout just didn't care about advancement. A few years later I had a scout just like him. He is truely a natural leader and was an outstanding all around scout, but he had zero desire for any of the processes of advancement in the program. How could the best SPL ever not want to advance. He in my persepective was the epitome of the Eagle and I felt he needed the Eagle to represent the kind of person he is, even today. So I applied constant pressure for him to advance, and I hurt everytime when I think about how I drove him off. That SM was trying to teach me something, why didn't I listen? I changed my philosphy about adults setting goals for scouts after that. You know what the say about "assume". I bare many scares of its humily. Barry

To be fair, the functions of the church model the moral direction its members should follow, whether the church leaders know it or not. On this issue, there is a fine line between hypocrisy and progressive surrender.

I've heard of a handful of units dropping across the country, but nothing earth shattering. I know a few local COs are doing more than shrugging it off, but I don't know that they are kicking the scouts out. However, my concern has always been with the new scout parents. I'm afraid new parents will think it easier to just the skip political controversy than finding themselves picking sides. But, I've been wrong before and I hope my fears are misplaced here as well. Barry