Eagledad

Since paste doesn't work for me anymore and the editor kicks me out everytime I hit Return, I'm going to ask you to search for the article in the Wall Street Journal titled "Dessention and fiscal woes beset the Girl Scouts". It's pretty interesting. Barry

Welcome stout, this site has kind of gone through an overhaul and lost a lot of themore practical scouters, those who enjoy talking scouting. Don't limit yourself to the discussions and post of the just present lot, use the search also because their is a goldmine of informaiton from discussions over the past years. Barry

Check with the OA to see if they have poles you can borrow. They usually save their poles and are varied in lengths. Barry

Personally I don't think its about outdoors or adventure, my scouts do and did a lot more high adventure stuff than I did as a scout. But I definitely think that scouting is more prissy. I think it's there is less freedom for boys to express themselves as boys. Adults are A LOT more guarded today about what boys can say, do or even meet. We put limits on knives and other woods tools. It was no big deal for my patrol to go on a five mile with a map and compass, but adults today would struggle to let a patrol hike through the safe parts of our town without some kind of oversite. How many boys can ride their bike accross town without getting permission? Our culture has closed in on our youths freedom of expression and freedom to move about. The culture is more prissy, and we don't have very many adults who remember how it used to be. Barry

The BSA is a just a reflection of the culture and it's own progressive changes. The program dynamics changed dramatically when it allowed women leaders into the troops. This is not a female bashing rant, women are certainly capable and have proven themselves in the program. But women lack the youth Boy Scout scouting experience and camping experience. With 50 percent of the adult BSA member being female and another 25 percent of it males who also lack a youth scouting and camping experience, you start to realize how few of experience adults there are in the program to carry on the tradtions of a more male influenced experience. The program dynamics changed so much that the 21st Century Wood Badge course was a result of a more gentler kinder outdoor training course. Strangely Wood Badge is the first real outdoor camping experience for many of our adult leaders. Is there hope, well there are scouters even now on this forum motivated by political correctness pontificating for girls in the troops. The BSA is stuck between the ignorance of it's adult membership and media driven pop culture.

Yes, only the best scouts were elected in our troop as well. But our guys work so hard that only the ambitous scouts want the position. The SPL position is kind of SM in training for me, I work with them in the skills of coaching, mentoring, delegating and patience. It's worked well because they like to go back and teach those skills to the Patrol Leaders. Interestingly the SPL's typically want a break after six months because they work so hard. And they typically volunteer for Troop Guides and are very good at it. I don't know if one started that tradition or what, but they want teach, coach, and mentor and the new guys seem perfect for them. But six months later they want the SPL responsibility back because they miss the intensitiy of it. Our style seems to naturally raise the cream to the top. I can't take responsibilty, I didn't plan it that way. But it sure is rewarding to watch. Barry

Thanks MattR, I was doing that until about a week ago. Now it kicks me out of the editor when I paste. Barry

Anyone else feel the usability of the new Scouter.com forum is synonymous to the BSA's present situation. A response requires a great deal of planning, persistence and patience. My response to King Dingdong will be brief, wish me luck. Your highness, if you can't keep older scouts in your program, you are doing it wrong. Barry

Some people are just by nature lazy. I'm not meaning that in a negative way. I believe the majority of us lack true leadership ambition. That doesn't mean the scouts aren't learning the leadership skills you are teaching. It's the Scoutmasters responsibility to help a scout grow. Where you find that growth is hard to define sometimes, but admitting our failings to me is growth. I don't know how old your SPL is, but if he is 14 or younger, he may still turn into a great leader. I seen puberty do it many times. If he is older, it is rare that he will change much. But, one scout that I had this same conversation is now a very successful business owner in my town. So I fully believe they are getting what we are offereing, even if they don't see it just yet.

We had an adult just like this and eventually she left and took her son with her. She joined two other units before her reputation spread enough to keep her out of scouting. I brought this example up once in a forum discussion on the subject of whether a unit should warn the other unit leaders about these peoples behavior. In my case, I did not warn the next SM, but he did call. What I've grown to learn over time is these folks generally don't change. You did well mashmaster keeping the DE and COR in the loop. Barry

"Is my bias against SPL's showing?" Yep, and so is your EGO. Really good leaders have no bias or pride. Humiliy gives them unlimted vision to build men of character in every situation, every program style with every personality. Barry

Every new SM has the same experience. I onced asked the forum the same question and a wise SM asked me to ask the SLP how he felt he was doing. I did and was amazed at learned. So i ask you, has he grown at all in the position? Ask him what he thinks of his performance. I've had scouts who in this discussion choose to not advance until they felt they improved. Most all of us Scoutmasters start out by judging how scouts perform in "our" minds. But Our job isn't to shape boys into our image of a scout, it's to guide them into wanting to make good decisions. You can't make them do it, you need to figure out how to get them to voluntarily change. It means nothing if only do it for you. Barry

Sentine, I believe there is a right and wrong difference between mix-age and same-age patrols, but there are appropriate times for both methods. Most of the time the best method depends on the leadership style of the adults. Sometimes the best method depends on the limitations of the troop. However all things being equal, my experience is the mixed age patrols perform better with scout growth, expecially at the younger ages. Thank goodness for choices because most units are not equal. Barry

Your response Twocub is exactly the reason I don't like same age patrols in a boy run troop. Growth is a lot slower without experienced role models. Barry

I learned over the years that 50 percent of the SMs time is working with and teaching the adults how your program desgin works. Parents by nature are protective of their kids, so you have to get used to them standing up when they see their son at a disadvantage. Good SMs listen to consider the parents question so as to learn where they (the SM) might need to consider improving either the message or that part of the program. It's not always a matter of right or wrong, it's whether you can improve. When a mom approached me that her son wasn't earning his Eagle fast enough, I improved my message of how our program works to visiting families and families of new scouts so they would understand my approach to advancement. I also learned how the many activities and processes like elections and picking patrols fit in the bigger picture so that I could explain how the little parts of my program worked together to reach the vision for their son. In this case with your ASM, if you feel that the method you tried worked with the scouts and will improve the troop for the future, then practice a simple explination that you think will help your ASM understand. Listen to his points and counter with yours. Tell him that you will humble yourself before him if it fails. Or, accept what he is saying as a good input and try something different. Either way,what you learn from this experience will help you do it better the next time a parent calls.

Who said boot him from scouting?

Nobody said boot him out, I was discussing mental health. As for the jab, I'm not sure who you are refering, but you do know that zombies aren't real. Neither are vanpires.

That is the answer I expected. OK thanks.

No, they both need help. You think yourself the smartest guy in the room, is there a point when the health of citizens in our community trumps political correctness?

I agree with you jrush, but I wonder if we have come to a place in our pop culture where it is more politcally correct to contribute to the degrading mental health of a boy who worships a rock than take some responsibility to point out the obvious. You can take that as far as you want, but when that boy becomes a man, do we really want some of the credit for helping him become the mental mess he might become. I'd feel a little better if I'd at least talked to his parents about it, even if they are likely the problem. And yes, I did have that discussion with the parents of scout who worshipped witches. The parents didn't worship witches, but they were the problem. Barry

Beav, you are a moderator? That is so cool. I feel like I know a movie star, let's have lunch so I can touch your hat. Barry

Your'e new SM, what are your ponderings? Barry

As a SM, I always mentored scouts to consider the consequenses of their decisions in the bigger picture of being a servant of the oath and law and to react accordingly. 99 times out of 100 the scouts reacted with favorable choices, at least to me. But we had a mentally retarded 16 year old scout who was very close to earning his Eagle aggressively point a knife at another scout, and I just couldn't get him to see the wrong of his action. Since I wasn't trained as counselor for the mentally handicapped, I always invited the Scout's father to observe my dicussions with his son. He is an Eagle and a Silver Beaver, so he fully understands the process and I will never forget the deep sorrow I saw in his face when he realized that his son would not earn the Eagle. I think 99 times out of 100, young adults will do the right thing if they are presented with the consequenses of their actions in the bigger picture, but there will always be that one who just won't get it. Should the 99 be judged the same as the one? Each SM is different in the style of building citizens of character and leaders of integrity. How do we judge one style over the other? I wish deciding who wins and who looses was so easy, but when we see the blood, sweat and tears as a scout strives to develop a noble character, things are not a clear, at all. Just like our own lives, scouts have complicated lives as well. The curse of a SM is feeling the pain of showing each scout their reality. The reward is watching them grow.

While I agree to a lot of what Pack says, a servant of the community can't be oblivious to it's expected standards of being a good citizen. That would be selfserving, which is not a trait of the noble Eagle. That being said, I've been the SM of several hundred scouts. One of my very best scouts in both character and skills found himself a father at age 16 just after completing his Eagle project. That scout lives close and we still see each other from time to time because he is my sons best friend. He graduated Oklahoma State in four years with two degrees in Engineering and is now the father of three kids. He is also the Cub Master of the same Pack that I Cub Mastered him. Packsaddle is right, character isn't so much in not stumbling, but how we handle ourselves after we stumble.

There is no reqirments that have to be met during a ECOR for the scout to receive his regalia. The agenda of the ceremony is typically troop tradition or what the family wants. I don't agree that "short is better" either, it would be same as a groom's father telling the mother of a bride that "shorter is better". The Eagle is as important to some families as a wedding or as umimportant as first graders garduation. I learned rather quickly not to give "any" opinion or tell the family how they should feel about it. Just present them with some ideas and let them decide what they want. I once presented the Eagle badge to a scout in a one minute ceremony at the scouts house with only his family attending. I also don't agree that it should always be the scout's choice. Sometimes the best choice for a scout is allow his family to honor their son. My first ECOR was a young man who wasn't suppose to live past age 6 because of a heart deformity. That scouts parents celebrate everyday as if their son was just born. The ECOR for our deaf scout was the same.