Eagledad

I think there are many classes of adult leaders, I know my Eagle Scout neighbor who was arrested for making and selling adult pornographic movies was turned down by the BSA. He didn't even have kids. I know of a drug dealer older brother (bad one) that was turned away as well. Should we be afraid of stigmatizing the kids by those behavior classifications? What you are really saying is the BSA legitimized homosexuallity as a dangerous behavior, which you don't agree. Is homosexuality a dangerous behavior? I think it is, so we agree to disagree. Barry

Was always my number 1 fear as a SM. Oklahoma is well known for its energetic storms, but so were all the areas we seemed to do our high adventures. Barry

It's a lot more complicated than just a changing program, the BSA had more scouts after their big changes in the 60s and 70s than before. All the Scouting organizations in North America are suffering from the same problems of money, membership and camps. The Girls Scouts have struggled the longest but Campfire Kids wasn't that far behind them. The Canadian Scouts (largest Scouting orgnization in the world in 1990) is 30 percent of what they were of the early 90s. The one common event with all these organizations that marks the start their dramatic program decline is changing to a more progressive membership policy. Canadian scouts was most dramtic, but they all have the same trend. Take that as you want, the data doesn't lie. It's been said for several years that the BSA would follow the same decline as other organizations if it followed the same path. I attribute the BSAs slow membership decline the last 15 years to a top heavy Pack program that has become so complicated for average parent to manage that it burns out its members in three years. I could show graphs at the time that predicted todays deline based from big changes in the pack program. I don't think we have seen the real decline of the BSA yet, but we are about to. After watching all these other organizations decline the last 25 years, I personally conclude that Scouting is a values program which makes it a concervative organization. Once it gets away from concervative values, it's just another after school club. If you want to camp, join scouts. Otherwise go play chess. It will be left up to the churches to support the kind of scouting we have today. But without support from National, it will just be local.

Since paste doesn't work for me anymore and the editor kicks me out everytime I hit Return, I'm going to ask you to search for the article in the Wall Street Journal titled "Dessention and fiscal woes beset the Girl Scouts". It's pretty interesting. Barry

Welcome stout, this site has kind of gone through an overhaul and lost a lot of themore practical scouters, those who enjoy talking scouting. Don't limit yourself to the discussions and post of the just present lot, use the search also because their is a goldmine of informaiton from discussions over the past years. Barry

Check with the OA to see if they have poles you can borrow. They usually save their poles and are varied in lengths. Barry

Personally I don't think its about outdoors or adventure, my scouts do and did a lot more high adventure stuff than I did as a scout. But I definitely think that scouting is more prissy. I think it's there is less freedom for boys to express themselves as boys. Adults are A LOT more guarded today about what boys can say, do or even meet. We put limits on knives and other woods tools. It was no big deal for my patrol to go on a five mile with a map and compass, but adults today would struggle to let a patrol hike through the safe parts of our town without some kind of oversite. How many boys can ride their bike accross town without getting permission? Our culture has closed in on our youths freedom of expression and freedom to move about. The culture is more prissy, and we don't have very many adults who remember how it used to be. Barry

The BSA is a just a reflection of the culture and it's own progressive changes. The program dynamics changed dramatically when it allowed women leaders into the troops. This is not a female bashing rant, women are certainly capable and have proven themselves in the program. But women lack the youth Boy Scout scouting experience and camping experience. With 50 percent of the adult BSA member being female and another 25 percent of it males who also lack a youth scouting and camping experience, you start to realize how few of experience adults there are in the program to carry on the tradtions of a more male influenced experience. The program dynamics changed so much that the 21st Century Wood Badge course was a result of a more gentler kinder outdoor training course. Strangely Wood Badge is the first real outdoor camping experience for many of our adult leaders. Is there hope, well there are scouters even now on this forum motivated by political correctness pontificating for girls in the troops. The BSA is stuck between the ignorance of it's adult membership and media driven pop culture.

Yes, only the best scouts were elected in our troop as well. But our guys work so hard that only the ambitous scouts want the position. The SPL position is kind of SM in training for me, I work with them in the skills of coaching, mentoring, delegating and patience. It's worked well because they like to go back and teach those skills to the Patrol Leaders. Interestingly the SPL's typically want a break after six months because they work so hard. And they typically volunteer for Troop Guides and are very good at it. I don't know if one started that tradition or what, but they want teach, coach, and mentor and the new guys seem perfect for them. But six months later they want the SPL responsibility back because they miss the intensitiy of it. Our style seems to naturally raise the cream to the top. I can't take responsibilty, I didn't plan it that way. But it sure is rewarding to watch. Barry

Thanks MattR, I was doing that until about a week ago. Now it kicks me out of the editor when I paste. Barry

Anyone else feel the usability of the new Scouter.com forum is synonymous to the BSA's present situation. A response requires a great deal of planning, persistence and patience. My response to King Dingdong will be brief, wish me luck. Your highness, if you can't keep older scouts in your program, you are doing it wrong. Barry

Some people are just by nature lazy. I'm not meaning that in a negative way. I believe the majority of us lack true leadership ambition. That doesn't mean the scouts aren't learning the leadership skills you are teaching. It's the Scoutmasters responsibility to help a scout grow. Where you find that growth is hard to define sometimes, but admitting our failings to me is growth. I don't know how old your SPL is, but if he is 14 or younger, he may still turn into a great leader. I seen puberty do it many times. If he is older, it is rare that he will change much. But, one scout that I had this same conversation is now a very successful business owner in my town. So I fully believe they are getting what we are offereing, even if they don't see it just yet.

We had an adult just like this and eventually she left and took her son with her. She joined two other units before her reputation spread enough to keep her out of scouting. I brought this example up once in a forum discussion on the subject of whether a unit should warn the other unit leaders about these peoples behavior. In my case, I did not warn the next SM, but he did call. What I've grown to learn over time is these folks generally don't change. You did well mashmaster keeping the DE and COR in the loop. Barry

"Is my bias against SPL's showing?" Yep, and so is your EGO. Really good leaders have no bias or pride. Humiliy gives them unlimted vision to build men of character in every situation, every program style with every personality. Barry

Every new SM has the same experience. I onced asked the forum the same question and a wise SM asked me to ask the SLP how he felt he was doing. I did and was amazed at learned. So i ask you, has he grown at all in the position? Ask him what he thinks of his performance. I've had scouts who in this discussion choose to not advance until they felt they improved. Most all of us Scoutmasters start out by judging how scouts perform in "our" minds. But Our job isn't to shape boys into our image of a scout, it's to guide them into wanting to make good decisions. You can't make them do it, you need to figure out how to get them to voluntarily change. It means nothing if only do it for you. Barry

Sentine, I believe there is a right and wrong difference between mix-age and same-age patrols, but there are appropriate times for both methods. Most of the time the best method depends on the leadership style of the adults. Sometimes the best method depends on the limitations of the troop. However all things being equal, my experience is the mixed age patrols perform better with scout growth, expecially at the younger ages. Thank goodness for choices because most units are not equal. Barry

Your response Twocub is exactly the reason I don't like same age patrols in a boy run troop. Growth is a lot slower without experienced role models. Barry

I learned over the years that 50 percent of the SMs time is working with and teaching the adults how your program desgin works. Parents by nature are protective of their kids, so you have to get used to them standing up when they see their son at a disadvantage. Good SMs listen to consider the parents question so as to learn where they (the SM) might need to consider improving either the message or that part of the program. It's not always a matter of right or wrong, it's whether you can improve. When a mom approached me that her son wasn't earning his Eagle fast enough, I improved my message of how our program works to visiting families and families of new scouts so they would understand my approach to advancement. I also learned how the many activities and processes like elections and picking patrols fit in the bigger picture so that I could explain how the little parts of my program worked together to reach the vision for their son. In this case with your ASM, if you feel that the method you tried worked with the scouts and will improve the troop for the future, then practice a simple explination that you think will help your ASM understand. Listen to his points and counter with yours. Tell him that you will humble yourself before him if it fails. Or, accept what he is saying as a good input and try something different. Either way,what you learn from this experience will help you do it better the next time a parent calls.

Who said boot him from scouting?

Nobody said boot him out, I was discussing mental health. As for the jab, I'm not sure who you are refering, but you do know that zombies aren't real. Neither are vanpires.

That is the answer I expected. OK thanks.

No, they both need help. You think yourself the smartest guy in the room, is there a point when the health of citizens in our community trumps political correctness?

I agree with you jrush, but I wonder if we have come to a place in our pop culture where it is more politcally correct to contribute to the degrading mental health of a boy who worships a rock than take some responsibility to point out the obvious. You can take that as far as you want, but when that boy becomes a man, do we really want some of the credit for helping him become the mental mess he might become. I'd feel a little better if I'd at least talked to his parents about it, even if they are likely the problem. And yes, I did have that discussion with the parents of scout who worshipped witches. The parents didn't worship witches, but they were the problem. Barry

Beav, you are a moderator? That is so cool. I feel like I know a movie star, let's have lunch so I can touch your hat. Barry

Your'e new SM, what are your ponderings? Barry