Eagledad

It's not a premise, it's years of observation. Yes of course the goal is the scouts holding each other accountable for their choices. in fact that is the expectation. I can understand the PLC taking away choices because, like the adults, its easier not holding scouts accountable. But scouts and adults learn to adapt as they mature with the program. Just be careful the adults allow the scouts to adapt as they mature. Barry

The responsibility of the adults is to provid a program where scouts learn to balance the consequences of their choices with the Scout Law. The more a scout chooses, the more he gets to practice with the Scout Law. I used to instruct adults at leader training that the choices troops hold from their scouts are typically based from a adult fears or arrogance. Over the years of doing this scouting stuff, l found consistent scout behavior mimics consistent adult behavior. So the adults only real fear is their arrogance of hypocrisy. The way past adult fears is training and setting expectation. In this case, Teach how the phones can be valid tools During scouting activities and set an expectation that they won't interfere with the scouting experience. Of course some scouts will abuse the expectation, but that is an opportunity to guide the scout in his choices of living by the Scout Law. Barry

Yes, our troop allows scouts to use single man tents provided they bring their own. Being a back packing or minimalist program, I support it. But it wasn't that long ago this forum debated single man tents because a scout might become ill and nobody would know. I still support single man tents, but I can think of two scouts who tent mates had to get help in the middle of the night because they became so ill. Seems nothing is easy. Barry

Yep, Scoutmaster Sentinel has a nice ring to it. Barry

I wasn't thinking of anyone specificity, the forum had a lot of intense discussions back then and it was several years ago. Your post just reminded me of that argument. Barry

Our Bobwhite yell was "LOOK OUT BELOW!" Barry

I have to laugh, pro gay adult leaders on this form were saying the same thing when some us argued homosexuality was a bad example of role modeling. That's when they said "no sex in front of Scouts, which included hand holding by married leaders.". Of course that was a silly response, but no sillier than what is posted in this thread. Barry

One of our scouts was a Philmont Trail Guide and I asked him what was the most frustrating part of being a Trail guide. He said crews who took more than 30 minutes to break camp. He guided a few crews that took more than 2 hours to break a camp and it makes the whole day stressful trying to get them to their next campsite in a reasonable time. Add to that breaking camp in the dark. The faster the crew can break camp, the later they can sleep. Barry

Sentinel, I modeled our boy run program from a troop whose Scoutmaster started when he was about 21 and single (Cliff Golden - Troop 33). His Troop is the best model of boy run program in the country. He was my role model for becoming the type of scoutmaster I became. The best scoutmasters can sell refrigerators to Eskimos because Boy run/patrol method is a tough concept to sell. You have already proven yourself to have that skill. Barry

Interesting question. Everyone's answers are good. On my crews, the Scouts decided when to start the night before. In general they looked at the program and distance to the program and calculated departure from there. In most cases, but not all, we were on the trail just as the sun started giving us light. In a couple of cases, we were hiking a dark trail for a few minutes. Not my choice, but the scouts seem to get it pretty right in most cases. I should add that most of the scouts in the crews I was on had several backpacking trek experiences. Barry

I miss Oak Tree, he is a fine Scoutmaster with a lot of good advice. One of his comments when this, or any kind of situation of adult drama occurs is: "Someone has to step up.". Strangely I find that most adult behavior situations can be nipped in the bud if someone would just step up. But most folks do not want to be a bad cop or deal with confrontation. Our district was asked to deal with a SM and ASM relationship in a troop because the committee refused to step up. Much the same as the OPs, the ASM (mother) was still married and not hiding her affection for the just divorced SM even with her son around. The DE had to step up, but not after the troop lost a 3rd of it's scouts. The SM was later kicked out of the program for offering a beer to a scout after lights out. Barry

It's very common today. I know of several Eagle Scouts who either didn't have kids or only daughters who wanted to give their time to a troop, but felt the appearance was not socially acceptable. This goes back at least 20 years ago. We had a neighbor 25 years ago who wouldn't let my 6 year old daughter come to his house to play with his kids until his wife was home. We thought it strange at the time, but not today. Kind of sad because the scouters back in the 70s who didn't have kids seem to be the cool scouters. I think because they had toys like jeeps and motorcycles that the rest of the adults got rid of when their kids showed up. I was very careful around my daughters friends. She was in the Cheer squad and we chaperoned few games. I made sure my wife was close just incase I ended up in a situation where the Cheer coach and sponsors were pulled away. The environment is not friendly to single adults hanging around kids. Or a least not male single adults. My teacher son says teachers are under a lot of pressure not to get singled out with the students other than lecturing in their class. He gave up Facebook when he started. And the kids know this. He works with high risk kids and some of them know how to use the system to their advantage. If they want to get back at a teacher, the raise the "R" card. It's a big hassle for the teacher and school. There are no repercussions on the students for false alarms. Barry

You just described the intent of today's Wood Badge course in a nut shell. Barry

Yep, but it's not a leadership course. And anyone who tries to make it one would be getting away from the syllabus. I have personally never heard a single scouter debate leadership and management titles for courses, except on this forum. To many bigger hills out there. Let them have their beads stosh, they are where they want to be in the program. Barry

I don't see Woodbadge as a leadership or management training. It's team building training. It's called a leadership course because for most folks it's just semantics anyway. As I said earlier, most folks are expecting a skills course, more specifically a troop skills course. And even more specifically, outdoors skills course. I always wondered why they thought Cub Scout and Venturing leaders were also invited. Many are disheartened by the course because they are let down from the expectation. And I respect that. The BSA probably needs better outdoor skills courses under the troop (leader?) theme, but it's hard enough for scouters to find the time to do the courses asked of them now. I did teach a Council level Patrol Method course that I wrote myself. Adults also found that concept challenging. I know some councils suffer from bad staffs that don't follow the course material. I say that because the material is written so that the each staff member very nearly only needs to read their part during the course strait out of the syllabus. Most BSA courses are written that way and very repeatable, provided the Course Director follows it correctly. As the Council Junior Leadership Chairman, I was very adamant our course directors strictly followed the syllabus. And as I said, I had something like this type of course in my head before it came out because I found the majority of unit problems were a result of not understanding the goals of the program and not working together as a team. Those were the two typical approaches I used to get units back up to speed. As for the ticket items, I believe they are the key for helping participants understand their personal abilities toward their unit responsibilities. And I believe the heart of the course is coaching the participants in writing their tickets. Personally I believe the Troop Guide ASM is the most important staffer on the team. If they don't get it, tickets in general will be vague and pointless to the participant. I'm sure a few here relate. However, when done correctly, the ticket items part of the course works so well that we wrote it into our Council Junior Leadership Training course syllabus (now called NYLT). If the ticket is written correctly, most of the learning will come from working them. Barry

Yes, this makes unit adults agreeing partners with the parents. I would certainly bow out of that unit. Barry

Your major criticism is not the case in our council, so your observation is local. Barry

The chip on your shoulder may be served as a result of your staff, I don't know. But after working from a district position to with a lot of struggling units, the course design was almost exactly what I felt was needed. I believe most participant go into the program expecting to learn either scout specific skills or leadership specific skills. But those are not the skills that tear units down. Units lacking the understanding of goals and how to set them along with how to work as a team are the two areas that I most often saw as the cause of broken units at all levels of scouting. The course teaches those aspects pretty well if the staff does their part correctly. Barry

I totally understand your frustration. And I'm not belittling your situation at all. Changing packs may be your best solution. Whenever I worked with frustrated scouters such as yourself, I told them "welcome to the world of the District Executive." The problem organizations faced with relying on volunteers is that they have to rely on volunteers. Volunteers carry the heavy baggage of inexperience and no skills. Along with that is the added burden of good intentions without follow through. It's very frustrating as you know. Your only choice is to take the program by the horns and run it from the CC position, or step way back. Many really successful units are managed by CC who has the skills to recruit and delegate. If you believe yourself to have those skills, pay the application fee yourself and take over. If you doubt having those skills, then the CC probably isn't a good place for you anyway. As I said, I have seen hundreds of units in your situation. Sadly they are probably the majority of programs to some degree. But someone with the right skills can change all that. Barry

Direction. Not everyone leaves feeling fulfilled from the course, but that doesn't mean the course is wrong for everyone. Many folks find their calling in the BSA as a result of the course. Believe it or not, most course participants don't really have much understanding of what they will be doing in their unit a year from now. The course is designed to help give them that vision. If the staff knows what they are doing, most participants leave with direction and goals. That being said, the course has a lot more impact if the participants' unit leaders work with them in developing those goals. What do you think your four adults would say if you asked them what they think they will be doing a year from now? Barry

That' kind of what we did. This appears to be a complicated topic, but what makes it complicated is how to guide the program so that the scouts learn from their freedom of making choices. If the experience is supposed to be a growing experience, than theoretically the scouts grow toward healthier menus without outside guidance. What scares adults is the will abuse the freedom and live a junk food weekend o each Boy Scout camp out. Right? The discussion is kind of going in the direction pitting health concerned adults against the uncaring junk food attic youth. It wasn't that way for us because we took adult directing out of the exercise. At least in dictating what scout could bring anyway. We did help the scouts understand some of the health issue a little better when situations occurred. But the way we took the adults out of the discussion was letting the Scout Handbook guide the scouts. The handbook is pretty good guide on nutrition and healthy meals. Or was, I know the book has gone through a couple of revision. Our scouts know that they are expected to use the scout handbook for all their guidance that it will apply. In fact they even made skits about how they needed to reference the handbook for guidance. So when the scouts are told they have no restrictions to menus other than the guidance of the handbook, they feel pretty good about the freedom. And at first they will push the boundaries Way-over-the-line, but as they abuse their freedom, they start to see the consequences as well with hyper scouts who stay up all night, litter (lots of litter), not feeling good, and bad behavior. Of course the SM may ask the SPL for a surprise camp inspection while the scouts are activities to find the litter or visit scouts during meals. As Eagleonfire pointed out, proper hydration is very important and when a scout shows the slight bit of problem, everyone is on it quickly. But, in truth the scouts and adults already know who is abusing their freedom before it gets to that point. So while the SM may suggest or hint to the SPL that some guidance may be required, we found the PLC was ready for the discussion because in truth, Patrol Leaders don't like the abuse either, once the understand the limitations of proper nutrition. Surprising to me, our patrols went from bringing a case of coke to the first campout to not bringing any at all by their forth. The litter and disobedience of the scouts drove the PLC to limit two cans per scout per campout. The litter issue continued and drove the PLC to only allow two 1 liter bottles for Saturday Night only. We are a back packing troop, so the hassle of carrying 1 liter bottles for only Saturday night dinner drove most patrols to give it up all together. So, in six months time, sodas came and went without the adults getting involved. Well not to involved, the Scoutmaster did show the SPL BSA literature requiring adult responsibility for the scouts health. But, the Scout Handbook pretty much drove the standards. I think what the scouts really enjoyed was the freedom, but once the newness of it was over, the hassle of the soda and other unhealthy foods was more than they wanted. The hard part about this is being patient and cleaver enough to figure out how shape the freedom so that the scouts learn from their experience. I can honestly say we stumbled around it, but it work for the most part. I'm not promising your results will be the same, but I will say our experience can give you some hope the scouts do eventually prefer health and nutrition, with in reason. Our troop does have a tradition of stopping at a local store on the way home for junk food, provided they break camp early enough to get us home by 2:00 pm. Oh, I will add that since the first day the first 16 scouts started the troop, there has always been a requirement for the patrols to cook all meals except lunch. I don't know if that makes much difference in this discussion. That wasn't so much for nutrition as it was to prevent skipping meals. Barry

Eagleonfire, my scouting experience as both a youth and adult for the last 50 years are in Oklahoma City. In fact I live just up the road from camp DaKani. While physical health is important during outdoor activities here, Scouts of the Boy Scout age are very capable of making the right decisions for their health. My reply to your post wasn't so much to your words as it was to your condescending tone. I agree leadership for eight year olds is different than scoutmastering for troop age Scouts, but there are better ways to present an opinion in a discussion. Barry

We keep saying that Patrol Method works because scouts learn from their decisions. Some decisions, even in their simplicity, are very good teachers because they expose ones balance of discipline and self desire. I personally like scouts to see their strength and weaknesses of making choices, so we presented them with many choices, most of which they didn't realize was on purpose. We adults can't force a scout to change his behavior, he has to make that change himself for it to be a life change. Scouts are more likely to change when they see their consequences repeatedly. It's easy to tell a scout his behavior is wrong. The challenge for scouters is presenting scouts in situations where their personal choices motivate their changes of behavior. Is a coke all that much different than candies, cup cakes, Pop Tarts, cell phones, and techs like Gameboys? Health depends on the balance of mixing treats within a healthy diet. Of course we adults can restrict temptations from scouts for their own good, or we can allow those choices in a safe environment where they face the consequences of their choices. The more consequences they face, the more they learn of themselves. I found cokes, and other treats, to be a very good test for scouts to see themselves. Barry

Last week, a colleague and I were stuck together car in a during a business trip for several hours. As things go these days, and we found ourselves deep into each other's political ideals. After we concluded our trip and stated heading to our own cars, my colleague turned and thanked me for intellectual discussion that forced him to consider other angles on the subject. He actually said intellectual. What did we do for him to respond like that, we patiently listened to what each other and responded respectfully without judging or condescension. We both behaved within the scout law. Some here like to call this forum a campfire, but after years here, I find our human nature struggles to restrain our emotions to patiently respect each other when we aren't sitting face to face. At real campfires, my scouting colleagues and I have approached many subjects from opposite sides of opinion, but we always seem to get in our sleeping bags with the same respect for each other that had before the camp out. Seems we adults struggle with the scout law when we arent held accountable by face to face contact. Barry

They can't have sodas? Hmmm So your adult rules are more important than my adult rules? Barry