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No women allowed - is this usual?

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  • #16
    Dug,

    girlfriends show up? What's that all about? Whose girlfriends? Show up, and do what? Cut wood for the fire?

    Why ask the question of staff and PLs? It seems that by asking, you're willing to establish, even if only by oral agreement, that women are not welcome. Hmmmm, women Scouters and/or parents are not welcome, but girlfriends are?????????

    Shouldn't your leaders be encouraging women to particpate?? I think I'm gonna suggest Cajuncody have a talk with you . . .

    I think I know the answer here, but, ... Why encourage parents not to come on the first two campouts. Are they welcome thereafter??

    jd

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    • #17
      jd, maybe Cajun and I can stroll over to his side of the fire and say "hi"...

      If their idea of a woman is a girlfriend "showing up" then they don't know many female Scouters:

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      • #18
        I don't want to go to the side to say Hi, I want to stand right here in front of the fire and say Hi all I want. I want to sit right here on my nice comfy log with my smores and tie knots right here with everyone else. There would be no way that I would stay home "All BAck of the Bus" while my son went camping unless I good and well wanted to.
        In all seriousness, I would go to the next roundtable and recruit all of the "scouting sisterhood" that I could and I would camp with my sons troop. Heck, I would camp with my sons troop even if I was the only female there. Of course I have never been the shy type. If you were in my area I would be happy to go camping (hee hee, guess that makes me a "Happy Camper" giggle) with your troop for moral support.
        However, If this was indicitive of the way the troop will operate in the future and there was absolutly no hope whatsoever that it would change, I would probably have a nice heart to heart with my son and possibly the families that crossed over with him about going somewhere else. This isn't the dark ages. Our young men are going to have to learn how to live and work with the opposite sex. My hopes would be that my own son would have been raised better and would understand that this is not acceptable in the here and now.
        AND on the way out the door I would be sure and tell the SM and anyone else within a country mile why exactly I was leaving and why I wouldn't be back.
        Just me
        Kristi

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        • #19
          Kristi, we may disagree on method but I'm with you on everything else. My approach is to go, camp, sit at the campfire and have a good time. I'm not the shouting type...but I've backpacked the Rockies, Sierra Madres, the Appalachians and canoed in between, so I've earned my spot on that log. In a non-confrontational way, unless somebody tells me to my face to get to the back of the bus. I'm afraid that dog won't hunt. I'm so glad my son's troop is welcoming of female leadership, I would have a hard time trying to figure out if my problem was my ego and if what I was doing was in my son's best interest.

          Vicki

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          • #20
            I think you took that the wrong way. I wouldn't raise my voice at all, that isn't my style, however I would let everyone know on my way out why I was leaving. I am not out looking for a fight but I am not going to hide over in the corner. The more out there in front of the group you are, meeting and greeting, the easier you are to accept (most of the time ). It is harder to bar someone from the meeting who everyone likes than it is to bar someone from a meeting who ticks everyone off or nobody knows. I would be out there making friends and influencing people and bringing them to the camp fire with me, but if It came to the point that it was beyond hope I would make sure that everyone knew why.
            Who knows, maybe this SM just needs a couple of true female scouters to show him that we can pitch tents and tie knots with the best of them. Then again it could be his own little ego troop/trip.

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            • #21
              What she said!:

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              • #22
                Just to play the devil's advocate for a moment . . . .

                Just kidding! Does anyone think there's a good way to follow that lead sentence in this thread and make it out alive> (That was a sarcastic comment, I don't want and answer.)

                Actually, the finest District Chairman I ever worked with was a female. I fail to see how sexism is of a benefit to the young men we're teaching.

                Unc.

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                • #23
                  Just echoing what others said. This is a remnant of old scouting days. Our troop certainly allows moms, but we've only had a few over the past two years. But they are always welcome, as long as they understand the adult's role in boy scouting. My guess is (and I have observed this), is that this SM thinks moms will be more likely to do the work for their sons. Now, we all know that dads can be just as guilty of it, but that may be what he fears the most.

                  Go, have fun, make friends with the other adults. Stay out of the boys way. Don't carry your son's load. If your son messes up or struggles along the way, let the troop leadership deal with it. Take your cue from other adults. How do they act?

                  You probably won't change the guy, but you may have fun trying.

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                  • #24
                    JD- We try to urge the parents not to attend the first two trips for a few obvious reasons. One, it forces the kid to start to rely on his patrol leader for answers and help instead of running to dad (or mom i guess) for assistance, and two, it a jump start for the scout towards self reliance. He learns he can live without mom or dad, and really, mom and dad learn that their son can get on without them. After the second trip we love to have parents help out because, I cant go on every trip 12-13 times a year.

                    As far as asking the kids, we had visiting cub scouts to our cabin and were explaining this idea of wait till the third trip to a mother who really wanted to go. Afterwards the staff was talking about hoping she would change her mind.

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                    • #25
                      Lets see...how can I tick off the most people...?

                      advocate for the 'twit' a bit?
                      As a troop, we would rather see NSP parents stay home for the first few camps...as mentioned in other posts they can become a crutch for some boys.

                      Last year I observed our New Scout Patrol Shakedown campout, my only job (and one of my favorites)was to cook for the adults- quite unknowingly, one of the newer leaders (ASM) had 'invited' new scout parents to go a long...we had so many decide to come that we had to rent a second group campsite...more distressing, parents immediately began challenging the way the SPL made buddy assignements, work details, even scout skill class rotations...

                      Only an outstandingly adroit move by the Scout Master (our Really Good Guy) in coralling the parents to spend the rest of the day teaching them the patrol method kept the event from turning into a disaster...As it was a few parents never did 'forgive' the troop leaders for not doing it the way they thought it should be done!...And they eventually left the troop 'cause Troop 'way' way was too rigid!' and they should have been listened to more. It was, sadly, quite a thing to watch. So I can understand some of the reasoning...

                      Only wanting trained leaders may be at the root, only I doubt it.

                      About the SUV...many of the campgrounds we use will allow vehicle unloading but then the vehicles must be removed quite a distance (in one case more than a mile)to insure an 'appropriate outdoors experience". AND NO ONE SLEEPS IN A VEHICLE on our camps, its just not done.

                      all this stuff said, I would present myself, if I were a lady (one ugly lady sad to say), along with a signed adult volunteer application to be an ASM or committee member and sign up for the next training class and then ask the whole committee why women were so vehemently discriminated against by the twit (if I was a women, I guess I wouldn't really be a lady).

                      Be prepared for a difficult struggle be patient and polite...but if you boy loves the troop forcing him into another group will be likely to lead to a drop out.

                      And by the way, we LOVE ladies to come along after the first couple of camps...most of us guys get a charge out of demonstrating our kitchen prowess, heck I usually get one or two proposals...particularly when I bring out the cake or cobbler ...though when one of my neighbors told her husband she was gonna have to divorce him 'cause I was a better cook I did feel a need to scope out escape routes...John is one big sucker!

                      I do hope you can weather the storm...who knows, if you approach it in a civil manner you might be able to slowly drag the twit into at least, the 19th century...
                      YIS

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                      • #26
                        Yeah. What they said. I can't really add too much to this discussion other than to point that (a) no one has come running this SM's defense and (b) one the best and most successful SM's in my District is a woman.

                        - Oren

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                        • #27
                          Wow! Thank you for all the support and helpful advice.

                          I checked out going to the CC, but discovered he is an elderly relative of the SM. I called the single mom and offered to share my tent. She had already gone out and gotten one, but was happy to talk a while. She is very frustrated. Like me, she had decided to go ahead and attend the campout and then make a decision. Unfortunately, her son, like mine, wants very nmuch to stay with all his buddies.

                          My husband and I sat down and had a talk with my son. My husband told him that he wasn't "raising any children who didn't respect half of the population" and if he saw any of that coming from our son his involvement with this troop would be over. My son surprised us both by telling us that he didn't care if the SM wanted me there, he wanted me there and that's what mattered. He also said when he was SPL (ambitious little dude, isn't he?) he would push to be sure women were welcome.

                          Having spoken with my son and seen how strongly he feels, I agree with the poster who said moving him to another troop would probably result in him leaving scouting. He loves it so much, I don't want that to happen.

                          Yesterday afternoon he put up and took down his tent by himself on the front lawn until he could do it alone in under ten minutes. This took a while since the neighbor kids and a stray father insisted on helping a few times, before finally going off to put up a tent in their own front yards. Though his sister sat on the porch to encourage (or harrass) him, I stayed in the house so I wouldn't be tempted to help.

                          Then last night after sports he had me drive him to a dark field near the house so he could time himself and see how long it took him to put up his tent alone in the dark - 18 minutes. I stood on the side of the road and watched him quietly. From a mother's perspective those were 18 wonderful minutes. I don't want to intrude on his Boy Scout experience, but I don't want to miss out on it either.

                          I'm going camping.

                          Maybe I should practice putting up my own tent.



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                          • #28
                            Good for you!!

                            Let us know how it goes.

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                            • #29
                              Sounds like you're on your way with the right attitude (and your son too)! Glad the other mom figured out the car thing on her own. Sounds like she's on the right track too. It's so gratifying to watch them succeed on their own.

                              Welcome to the campfire.
                              Vicki

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                              • #30
                                I recently left a troop that was anti woman they didnt want any women on troop campouts unless another woman or her husband attended. The woman in question had been thru Woodbadge and just finished up being a Webelos 2 leader had her oldest boy in the troop for a year and then the second one crossed over, once she turned in her application the comittee decided to enact this rule. The troop went from 25 scouts to a now 7 scouts with only about 3-4 showing up to meetings.

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