How long should a meal take?

[eghiglie]

I am wondering how long other patrols/troops take for the youth to have a hot meal from start to finish? Meaning from once the crew gets into the kitchen to when they are done and all the utensils/dishes washed?

 

On our last campout the hot meals took 3 hours and cold meals took 2 hours. Of course there is some bickering between the helpers and the head cook.

 

The adults cook and eat seperate from the boys and we are done real fast.

 

Has anyone come up with technques to make this go better?

 

One thought was to have the Patrol Cook pick his staff for the weekend, figuring if he picks his friends they will get along better.

 

Thanks,

Ed

[Nike]

1) Too many cooks in the kitchen. Two or three boys should be able to prep and cook for eight to ten in sixty-ninety minutes on propane stoves to include clean up. Cold meals only require the laying out of ingredients and each Scout makes his own. (Assuming sandwiches and chips for lunch.)

 

2) Whoever is head cook is CHEF. The kitchen is his, and he is in control. If a boy is not part of the cooking team, he stays out of the way.

 

3) The kaper chart is king and established before camp. If the PL can't or won't enforce the kaper chart....

 

 

[Beavah]

Hot meal? One hour or less, includin' dessert. Lots faster if it needs to be.

 

Some things to look for:

 

1) Do yeh have enough burners? Lots of times that can be an issue, especially in the cold. Cookin' one big pot takes longer than cookin' two small pots, and doesn't give as many lads experience.

 

2) Do the lads distribute tasks, or do yeh make 'em do it as a big job? If every boy has his own eating-wear and is responsible for cleaning it himself, that can be a lot quicker than waitin' around for everyone to finish and then tasking out two or three poor (often younger) souls to "doing the dishes."

 

3) The bickering thing happens more in same-age and younger groups. If yeh have older scouts or adult examples to follow (who are doing work, not ordering people to do work), it quickly goes away.

 

4) Patrol cook at summer camp, and make a contest of it. Good meal and cleanup in minimal time. Debrief with 'em each time. It takes stormin' time before they work it out and start performing, and that takes repetition where they're remembering.

 

5) Are the non-cooks doin' other camp tasks (taking down tents, gathering wood for campfire, etc.?) and then perhaps trading off if the cooks also need to take down tents. Can your lads do "hand offs?"

 

My guess is yeh really don't need techniques. Look at what your adults do to be "real fast" and what the boys do, eh? Then identify the one big thing the boys need to work on first, and make a game of it. Once they get that down, pick the next big thing. Teach the PLs first if yeh can, and then let 'em teach the patrols.

 

Often if you find boys struggling without makin' progress, it's a sign you need to teach or be an example. Don't be afraid to jump in as a fellow cook and be a mentor, or encourage your SPL/ASPL to do so, or make cookin' together a part of your next Patrol Leader training session. Point bein' that if you see a need for teachin' the youth, teach, don't let 'em flounder. Show 'em that cool people and adults do chores without complaint. Not for them, but alongside them.

 

Beavah

 

[AnneinMpls]

Cooking over a wood fire or coals will take much longer than cooking on a campstove.

Wood fire - you need to plan in time for gathering firewood if you're not bringing your own (still will take time to gather tinder), laying the fire, stoking it up, or waiting to burn down to coals. Charcoal too - you'll have some wait time for thr coals to be ready. A charcoal chimney will speed things along some.

Make sure water gets started heating as *soon* as a stove burner is free or there is room in the firepit. Otherwise, cleanup is waiting on hot water.

Teach "clean as you go" - food prep areas should be cleaned immediately after use - once a utensil is used drop it into soapy water to soak - throw away trash as it's produced. All these small steps during meal prep will make the final clean-up go much faster.

A messy pot can wash itself - after the food is out, pour in water, add some dishsoap, and put it on the fire or burner.

For washing up, with the 3 dishpans method, start by having each patrol member clean up their dishes *before* they go into the wash water - properly thoroughly scraping clean, or wiping out with a papertowel or napkin. Dirty wash water is inefficient - water will need changing before everything's done - waiting for *more* water to heat..

So, then cookware is happily boiling away on the fire, bubbling up soap bubbles while each scout takes their turn down the row of dishpans, washing their dishes, silverware and cup, then the serving and cooking utensils go down the line, then the final scrub of the pots.

Warm water will clean faster than cold water and is more comfortable for washing up - water does not need to be brought to a boil - just warm it up. If you are sterilizing with bleach, use cold water - warm water will inactivate the bleach.

Recap: Don't delay getting water heating up, get an assembly line going, get the small stuff out of the way early on.

Hope this helps,

Anne in Mpls

[Eamonn]

I think it goes without saying that it depends on what you are cooking.

A slow cooked stew made from scratch will take a lot longer than reheating one from a can.

Everything comes down to planning.

Do the Scouts have the skills needed to cook the food?

Do they have the equipment that they need?

Have they posted a list of who does what?

 

I have found that the speed of getting most chores done can be Dependant on what the next activity is!

I know a lot of people seem to be for doing nothing after a meal (Free time) We found that having a fun activity planned for right after the meal made things move a lot faster.

Having the Scouts plan what the menu is and cook stuff that they like to eat or are good at cooking helps things move along.

Working with the PLC look for ways to make cooking more fun and less of a chore.

Include meals and the quality, time and just about anything else they can come up with as part of the inter-patrol competition.

Have silly hats and aprons for the cooks.

Young Scouts will make menus that might work well in a home setting, but be really hard to do at camp. Try and help them find one pot meals. Maybe a few new cook books added to the Troop Library?

If the program allows have the PLC come up with a theme for the menus. One weekend might be Mexican Food, one might be food taken from the books of a famous TV chef. One might be a "Fit "N" Lean" weekend with Heart Healthy menus.

Dutch Ovens can be used as a casserole, dump just about anything in them with some liquid and it cook.

Having the Scouts cook things that maybe they don't cook at home can add some excitements. Chocolate to chili, Curry to chicken. Lamb marinated in yogurt. Sauted bananas with brown sugar to pancakes.

Menus should be about what the plan of the weekend is.

While it might be OK to have more time in the kitchen on a weekend when the Patrols are doing Pioneering, it might not be such a good idea if they doing rock climbing and repelling?

Looking for ways of improving the food is on going. Simple things like a couple of metal plates that fit over the top of a pan of boiling water will keep food warm until everything is ready. Non-stick frying pans. Ensuring that the water for washing up is on while the patrol eats. Thickening sauces and stews at the last minute so they don't stick to the pan as much.

Just about everyone who cooks at camp wants to do a good job. Scouts see their Dads who is king of the Bar-B-Que. Find a way to tap into this pride, make cooking fun. Be around when the Scouts are cooking (Don't look at this time as leaders time off!) Offer words of encouragement, be willing to maybe show a Lad how something is done. Remember that he might never have cooked anything at home (Or even put a dish in the dishwasher!)

Make sure that Patrols eat together as a Patrol (Not grab stuff and eat it as it is cooked.) Again this might be new to some Scouts who come from families where everyone gets their food and runs off to another room.

Invite people who know about food to give a talk about food and cooking to a few Troop meetings. Local chefs, Dietitians, Scouter's who have mastered "Backwoods Cooking".

Be careful not to allow everything to always be the same old same old. Foil packs are great, but not every camp-out.

If there really isn't time for cooking I have no problem going out and buying pizza or fast food. Or maybe taking the Troop to the local swimming pool and stopping for something on the way back to camp. I know a good number of leaders will think this is just plain wrong!

Work with the PLC to find new and better ways of doing things. PLC meetings don't always have to be sit down events. Cooking in Roaster Bags submerged in water does work (The water is there for clean up) What knot is the best knot to secure he bag? Let the PLC work on it.

At one jamboree I seen a guy cooking a big roast (Pork I think) in a metal garbage can. He had chicken wire in columns along the inside filled with charcoal. It had a probe attached which was reading a temp between 325 and 350.

I was really impressed. I can't see me carting a big can around but maybe something smaller (5 gal ?) can might work. I don't know how many charcoal bricks it takes to hold a temp? Something a PLC might want to work on?

We have mastered the art of cooking in a foil lined cardboard box. I used a box that a printer came in the scouts covered it inside and out with good quality foil. At the bottom we had a rack from a refrigerator (A small one) We placed nine charcoal briquettes in a tin foil pie pan on the rack. It works great for cooking biscuits served with creamed corned beef! (A can of corned beef chopped added to hot milk brought to a boil and thickened with cornstarch, sometimes the Scouts add sweetcorn or peas) The meal takes about 20 minute's to cook from start to finish (As long as the charcoal lights!!)

We tried cooking a whole lamb in a rock lined hole in the ground (We couldn't find a small pig) it didn't work that well, but a whole salmon worked great.

The Ship tried cooking pheasant. Sea Scouts don't make the best pheasant plucker's!

I know I have a very big bias. But of all the skills we teach our youth I think cooking is the one that they will most defiantly use in later life.

I remember that my cooking a coq au vin at camp was a big turning point for me. It was something that my Irish mother was was not a great cook, would never have cooked.

I messed it up (I didn't know that a clove of garlic and a bulb of garlic weren't the same thing -So it was very garlicky)

Years later when I found I wasn't happy in the career I'd chosen, that coq au vin came back to haunt me.

Eamonn

[dg98adams]

This was sorta listed above, but a DUTY ROSTER prepared by the PLC will make things easier. That way everyone know WHO should be DOING what.

 

'Course the PLC/Patrol Leader will have to explain things like, the Scouts assigned to FIRE/(STOVES), need to get it setup/going BEFORE the cooking crew needs it to start cooking...and CLEANUP needs to heat water as soon as the cooks are DONE, and everyone starts eating.

 

The Quartermaster plays role here during the process, by making sure Matches/charcoal/stoves are made available BEFORE the FIRE guys need it, wash buckets/soap get pulled for the cleanup crew, trash bags are available for the TRASH Scouts, Coolers/food crates set out for the COOKS, etc.....

 

We try to make sure the CLEANUP eats first, as they will start DISHES/CLEANUP, before the rest are done. Assuming they started HEATING water AFTER the cooks were done, and also setup the WASH (as much as they can) station while the cooks were cooking.

 

Fire, water, washing, cleanup, cooking, etc....all running not happening one after another.

 

The duty Roster can be further divided by the Patrols if you are getting them to work that way.

 

I bet most of that 3 hours was "herding the goats" to come help.

 

Believe me, I have seen our new Scout Patrol take 2x as long, but that's because every opportunity to learn something, involves, talking about it, demonstrating, then letting the Scout do it (with supervision). Our Troop guide on these outings is busy assisting/teaching new Scouts.

 

While it is happening, it should involve everyone in the Patrol. The leaders need to setback and watch and I bet you'd see the Scouts that have to be tracked down and walked thru the jobs they should already know what to be prepared for.

 

When it works it looks like ants moving the colony, except it's never silent.

[Eagledad]

If I may eghiglie, I think you are asking the wrong question. You should be asking; How do I get my scouts to be more efficient with their time?. The answer is agendas and schedules. Scouts need targets and goals to shoot for.

 

All the other replies are good except they dont include the motivation to change. The agenda is the most important tool a SM can give scouts so they can develop independence, planning skills, creativity and spontaneous reorganization.

 

I learned at our JLTC that only about 10% (give or take) of the SMs in our district teach using agendas. Dont blame the BSA because agendas are in SPL Handbook and the SM Handbooks. The scouts who attended our JLTC course wrote at least 24 agendas and schedules through the course. Our SPL writes an agenda for every meeting that he leads. That means he writes one pre-troop PLC meeting agenda, a troop meeting agenda, and a post Troop PLC meeting agenda every week. The post PLC meeting agenda is pretty easy and written during the troop meeting. We also expect a Campout agenda or schedule for the Patrol Leaders, SPL and SM before we leave the church to our campout. The SM will hold the SPL to item on the schedule. In that schedule includes the troop assemblies after each meal. That is on purpose so that the scouts have fit their business inside the schedule. How do we do this. I follow the agenda to the T. The adults will walk to the assembly area on time. If the rest of the troop is late, well the SPL has to account for that. Eventually he will get tired of being imbarrased.

 

Summer camp is a great place to teach agendas. Let the SPL take the troop to camp assembly and if he is late, well you get to see how he adjust. But their nothing like a Dozen other troop watching your troop came in late. The hard part for you is not to take it personally or say anything. You might that night ask the SPL if he intends to do something different.

 

Heres the thing, how does anyone stay organized without an agenda or schedule? The reason the scouts take so long to cook is because they can. Does your troop wait for them, or do they assemble at the time marked on the SPLs agenda or schedule? When a patrol is allotted a certain amount of time to do a task and they cant make it, they have to change. Our Troop has a PLC meeting 1 hour before every troop meeting. The scouts have to complete that meeting before the meeting so the SPL can start the troop meeting ON TIME. They didnt do it at first, but they changed and improved. The SPLs also learn how important and agenda is because typically chaos follows when they try to go from memory. And the clock hold the SPL accountible. All the SM has to do is ask for a copy of the agenda and ask later what happened. Your troop will become a slave to the clock. That is a good thing.

 

It will take some time for your SPLs and scouts to develop the discipline of that annoying agenda. But, once they do get use to it, then allow them to not use it and they will beg to use it next time. Agendas really help scouts do their jobs. They will see them as maps.

 

And it will carry over into their adult lives. My wife still comments how I am always trying to improve my routine to save time and get more done. I got that from boy scouting.

 

Oh, one other thing, Rosters. I dont know why but those are things are not use much today, but rosters are how you develop loyalty in patrols. When scouts see in writing that everyone will eventually be a cook or KP, they dont balk, they just do their job. Rosters work better is the PL can write them before they leave for camp. But, just get the PL use to posting a roster at the beginning of camp so he doesnt have to nag his scouts. If the Agenda or Schedule says Troop Assembly 8:00am. The cooks know they have get up and be finished cooking in time to give the KP guys time to get their job done. Or, this might be a discussion item on the SPLs agenda at the tonights PLC meeting.

 

By the way, as a SM when you see that they are mastering their time pretty good, it is time to change the rules a little: Like not using paper plates to save time. You want them to get better at organizing, so suggest that the patrol start using real plates that have to be cleaned. When they master that, add another kink. You may think I was mean, but I had set in guidelines that every breakfast and dinner had to be cooked. But, our troop got good enough that they could break camp and be ready to for final troop assembly to load the cars within 45 minutes. That was 60 scouts working together as a team for 45 minutes. Took away to get there, but I remember when it happened, an ASM leaned over and said it was time to add another kink.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

 

[SSScout]

Camp Cookery: Things to learn (and remember) from instruction and experience.

Woodfires take more planning and time.

Duty roster needs to be "fairly" assigned and rotated. Boys needing to pass requirements have priority in assignments and teaching (fire making, cooking).Wood and water tenders shold be reminded of the importance of their jobs.

Not too many cooks.

Cooks need to BOIL water first, for cooking, tea & coffee & cocoa AND WASHING. Put water on fire while prepping meal. Water will be hot when cleanup starts.

Wood fire? Rub Soap on outside of pans. Easier cleanup. OUTSIDE of pans.

Cooks CLEAN as they go. Do Not make unnecessary mess. Put things away when done.

If cleanup crew is seperate from cook crew, cook crew understands that THEY (CC) need to leave things ready to clean. (see previous).

Diners need to EAT what they take, and leave little or no leftovers.

Therefore, menu planning can go a long way to eliminating waste.

Give the cooks a cheer as thanks for their efforts.

 

By all means, if there seems to be a problem, debrief and discuss what could be done better. Do not be accusatory or cast blame, only look to improving things.

 

DO NOT pretend you are Arabs and burp as a sign of your appreciation.(This message has been edited by SSScout)

[AnneinMpls]

SSScout's post brings to mind a really important point: You have to clearly define the responsibilities on the duty roster.

A generic listing of Cooks, and Cleanup or whatever you call them doesn't help unless you define those specific jobs.

Who starts the wash water heating up? The fire crew? The cooks? The cleanup crew? Time will be wasted while everybody argues it's not their job, or efforts are duplicated, or people can't be found to do it when the hot water is needed.

On our duty roster (kaper chart in Girl Scout land!) I specify what the job means (younger group so I scaffold the steps for them a bit more - Webelos-age)

We will also separate out hot food prep and cold food prep, and host jobs: The host sets the table, selects a grace and preps beverages, and escorts any special guests at the meal (adults). If you have a full patrol of 8, then they work as buddies: 2 fire crew, 2 clean up, 2 cooks (one hot, one cold), 2 hosts. Fewer than 8, each job may be covered by only one person, fewer than 4, someone's doubling up on jobs - arrange this so that they don't have to do two things simultaneously.

Remember to always *use* a duty roster even if it's a meal that is prepared individually - with foil meals, you still have ingredients to set out, leftovers (maybe!) to put away, the fire to tend, dishes to wash,...

The point about motivation is a good one too - it just sounded on this end that organization and skills were what was needed.

Anne in Mpls

[Eagle1982]

Other people said great things, I just want to add a few more.

 

That is why we continue to practice. I think too many Scouts fulfill the cooking requirement for rank, then hardly do any more cooking. While technically they did the requirement, they are not getting much needed practice to become decently proficient. Then on the next campout, you have a new group of boys doing their rank cooking requirement, and the previous group is not getting experience.

 

I blame a lot of this on summer camp. When I was a youth, we didn't work on 5 and 6 merit badges at summer camp. We worked on one or maybe two, because we still had to do a lot of camp chores like cooking. That is how we got better at it, by doing it.

[Hal_Crawford]

Our troop goes to a patrol cooking summer camp which means the scouts get fewer merit badges but it really serves as boot camp for patrol cooking. It is sometimes ugly but I think the scouts end up learning more from the experience. A patrol leader who can get his smoothly patrol through a week of patrol cooking has truly proven his abilities. To stay on schedule the scouts really need to be able to cook, eat and clean-up in 90 minutes or less. Cold lunches take under an hour unless the scouts are still cleaning breakfast pots and pans. As I said it is sometimes ugly.

 

Also note that most interpersonal breakdowns occur during meal prep. I suggest to Patrol Leaders that they either exclude themselves from the duty roster (if the patrol is large enough) or take a non-cooking position on days when the food is difficult. This is so he can step back and lead during meal prep; keep scouts on task etc. Learning to not do it all himself seems to be one of the hardest lessons for a young (or even older) PL. Truth be told it is sometimes difficult for adults to grasp that concept. The last day in camp usually has a cold lunch and dinner so that is a good day for the PL to be cook.

 

We run a patrol meal competition at summer camp where adults score the patrols on speed, quality of food, manners, cleanup, scout spirit, even originality if the scouts alter the recipe in an interesting way. It seems to help.

 

Hal

[mmhardy]

10 minutes...including grace and clean up. Pop tarts are a gift from the gods! ;-)

[eghiglie]

Eagledad is right, I should've asked How do I get my scouts to be more efficient with their time?.

 

Myself (SM) and the SPL makes an agenda and duty roster a number of days before the campout and its emailed to all the participants. We also have a short PLC Friday night after camp is setup to discuss the duty roster. He asks each boy by name if they understand what there job(s) is(are) that weekend. We also post the duty roster on the troop trailer.

 

Beahav also identified the other issue, this is a young troop (18 months old), 9 boys that range in age from 10 1/2 to 13 1/2. The SPL is the oldest boy in the Troop. I do wrestle with a maturity issue most times.

 

The feedback provided has been great. PLC is next Monday and I will bring these suggestions to that meeting.

 

I will post feedback on how it turns out and what's decided. I'm even going to make a checklist of sort for the head cook to follow.

 

 

[roguedawg]

One idea - We did this on one camp-out and it was great! We had about 30 minutes of free time after lunch before the events cranked up again. We stoked up the fire, cut up meat and veggies for our evening meal, filled the dutch oven, and dug a hole by the campfire. We lined it is coals, placed the D.O. in the hole, covered it with more coals and topped it off with dirt. When it was supper time, we just unburied our meal and ate.

 

Why showed the scouts how we did it and their typical answer was, "Why don't we do that?" But on the next camp out, they don't do what they were shown and end up taking an hour or two cooking. We in leadership could care less how long they take to cook a meal, just as long as it is a good meal and everyone has ate. If they would rather spend time cooking or doing a hike or visiting other troops, that is up to them. It is their camp out time. I would rather visit other campsites and have some good fellowship and goodies.

 

We had one bull-headed scout that took 4 hours to wash 4 dishes. He would blow off his parents, but we were not going to let him get out of doing his share of work. He finally got the point that he could spend 4 hours washing 4 dishes and cut into play time or just do it in 5 minutes and go do something fun for 3 hours and 50 minutes. By the end of the camp-out he would be a good little worker, until his parents would show and he would regress into his lazy baby mode. RD

[IM_Kathy]

our cooks for the various patrols do as much work as they can before we head out...

 

making chili? brown up the meat at home and then pack it

 

needing lots of chopped veggies? cut them up and put in baggies for the cooler

 

for the boys in our troop their biggest problem is getting things done all at the same time... they often will be eating their bacon while their eggs are still cooking and the like. They eventudally learn that certain things take a little longer to cook and so you start those first.

 

another thing that helps is have a cook and an assistant cook... rest of the boys are away from cooking area unless the cook calls them in to help with something.

 

and finally the other thing that helps is spacing the patrol cook stations away from each other allows for easier movement.