A small request

[ScoutNut]

>>"I imagine if those calling were handed a bill for $500 or so by first responders, people would be somewhat choosier about the calls for help they made."

[Stosh]

Only in America you can get sued for trying to help someone, and if caught on the right video camera or eye witness, can get sued for not trying to help someone.

 

Stosh

[qwazse]

If I'm gettin' sued anyway, I'm goin down helpin'.

[Scoutfish]

That's where good samaritan laws step in. They vary from state to state, but they protect those who were genuinely trying to help as long as they do not excede their level of training or ignore the obvious.

 

For example: If your highest leve of medical experience or training is removing a splinter from your own finger....then you do not try to performan emergenct thrachiotomy with a spork and a Mickey D's straw.

 

But if a person is unconscious and inside a burning car that just flipped over 15 times...and you inadvertantly break their neck while trying to save them...you are covers on the basis that the person would have died in the fire anyways..and that the injury happend during the process of saving a life.

 

You break ribs during CPR? Congrats! It means that you did it right!

 

AS a fromer EMT/ firefighter/ water rescue person...I can tell you it is much easier to cancle us en-route than to make funeral arrangements.

[KC9DDI]

As another first responder person myself, I'd just like to add that the recommendations of a first responder in a case like this should be taken with a grain of salt. It's kind of like asking a car salesman if he thinks you need a new car :-) For example, did you know that up to 50% of patients transported to a hospital via medical helicopter are discharged within 24 hours of arriving? The decision to call the helicopter is often based on a similar marketing slogan from the air medical company - "when in doubt, just call! we don't mind!" Of course, they don't mind overcharging patients tens of thousands of dollars for an unnecessary service, and exposing both the patient and the air medical crew to an incredible safety risk :-)

 

Also, even among first responders, the advice you get is going to vary on each person's background. While a volunteer with a lower-volume ambulance service may quip "those responding don't mind, that's why they are there!", I'll bet that a firefighter or paramedic with a busy, urban service won't be so thrilled with another 3am 911 call for a tooth ache or sore throat.

 

There was a recent case where an elderly woman and several children were killed in a house fire. The house within a city block of a fire station. But at the time of the fire, the crew from the nearest fire station was out at a non-emergency call, while the crew from the next closest station couldn't arrive in time. I doubt that it "made their day" when the crew from the nearby fire station found that the call they responded to wasn't an emergency, while several people were dieing in a house fire down the street from their fire station.

 

Regarding the original poster's case, it's difficult to determine how to respond, without a better idea of what the original situation was (How old was the scout, what was he ill with, what instructions did his doctor and parents give him, etc). While people should never be discouraged from calling 911 if they legitimately believe that it's an emergency, "When in doubt, call 911" is certainly NOT the right answer.

[SSScout]

Oh, yes it is. If you KNOW it's not an emergency, yeah, don't call. But "When in doubt..." and you DON"T know, CALL.

 

My wife wouldn't be my wife except someone called... "It's just a small cut"... no, it wasn't, it was a artery in her arm...

 

At my WB course, one Scouter came to the first aider (a trained EMT) and told her he had an embedded tick in his leg. She called for the local ambulance, he went to the local ER. It was surgically removed. I have no idea if it was Lyme infected, but the FAder thought (doubt? Nope) that it could not wait til he was at home the next day to see his personal physician. He could've been driven by a fellow WBer, but wasn't. The FAder insisted on the ambulance. He returned to the course after a few hours.

Aside: How does one miss the feeling of a tick burrowing that deep into one's thigh? I don't know.

I'll pay the taxes. This is what government is about, service to citizens....

 

 

[KC9DDI]

SSS - I guess I don't understand how a tick bite justifies an ambulance? I'll believe that it might require a trip to the ED relatively urgently, but why the call to 911?

 

Arterial bleeding - sure, that's obviously a life threatening emergency. And I believe we still teach our scouts to handle it as a "hurry case." Though I'm not sure how you could have arterial bleeding and not know it, unless it was some kind of internal bleeding?

 

It's not just about paying taxes, it's about ensuring that emergency resources are available in true emergencies. Because every time you call for the fire or EMS departments and it's not an emergency, someone else who has an actual emergency at that time now needs to wait longer for assistance to arrive. Also remember that different parts of the country are being affected differently. Like I said before, there may be less of a concern in sparsely populated, rural areas. But needless calls to 911 are causing enormous problems densely populated urban areas. I know of one city whose 911 dispatchers are prioritizing calls in such a way that callers with obvious non-emergency conditions are being told that no ambulance will be sent. Other callers are having to wait several hours for an ambulance to arrive. Even those with true, life threatening emergencies are having to wait a long time for help to arrive, when all of the ambulances are busy with non-emergency work.

 

Remember, 911 and EMS are NOT primary gateways into our health care system. 911 is reserved for EMERGENCY situations. An ambulance is not your personal taxi service, even if you're OK with "paying the taxes."

 

I'm not passing judgement on the young man mentioned in the OP's post, as no information was provided on the situation, so it's impossible to try to see what could have been done differently. Regardless, it's important to remember the purpose of 911 and emergency services, and educate ourselves on what the appropriate ways to access health care is, depending on the situation.

[Woapalanne]

"if those calling were handed a bill for $500 or so by first responders, people would be somewhat choosier about the calls for help they made. "

 

In some areas, they are billed.

[Scoutfish]

I am not condoning calling 911 for hiccups, a scratch, or even a big splinter.

 

But that extra agonozing heartburn could actually be a heart attck.

 

The adult who went to bed with a severe headache and won't wake up and acts groggy when he is usually up at 5am? Might be a small or regular stroke.

 

Stomach cramping 2o0 to 30 minutes after using your water purification tablets? WEll, who knows what crap you ingested.

 

That tiny little red bump on your thigh that you don't remember getting? Could be a black widow - or worse- a brown recluse bite. You have about 30 minutes to get treatment before the BR bite starts rotting flesh and staring a very , very nasty infection.

 

Scouts running around and being scouts, except that one who is strangely quiet and just sitying still.? I don't want to wait to see if he becomes exstended or curls up in a fetal position.

 

Again, nobody says to call an ambulance for pine cone scratches, or dirty kneees.

 

But alot of real emergencies start out as "it's no big deal" 's.

 

WE know that shortnes of breath could mean too much activity, an oncoming cold, pnuemonia or COPD kicking into high gear.

 

Is that kid having an Eptileptic eppisode or is he having seizures because of somethjing else.

 

Thing is, alot of people DO NOT know when an emergency is an emergency. But that works both ways.

 

Yeah,we used to get some calls that were not emergent in any shape way, or means, but alot of people wait a few days to go to the doctor and never get their because they were experiencing a real emergency and did act soon enough.

 

Now, as far as EMS having it's time wasted...it's just like a speeder asking a cop why he's wasting his time with a stupid ticket when he could be solving a real crime like murder. Well, as our chief of police once said: "A speeder is a potential wreck and homicide just waiting to happen, so therefore, I might just have prevented a murder when I pulled you over!"

 

 

EMS has no idea if it's an emergency or not til they get there and make assessments.

 

And the thing they may forget is this: The person who called EMS does not have the training to know the difference.

 

 

 

[KC9DDI]

Scoutfish - I think we're talking about two different groups of people. One is a group who treat emergency services as a tax-funded taxi service, that they are entitled to make use of for any and all purposes. This group either doesn't know or care of the dangers presented to others in the community who may be suffering from a life threatening emergency while the nearest ambulance is busy driving a guy with a tick bite to the ED.

 

I think the group of people you're referring to are those who go into denial when they are faced with a potential health problem. Sure, they know that their chest pain could be an MI, and should call an ambulance, but instead they talk themselves into believing it's just heart burn. It's not that they're uneducated, or that they don't want to bother emergency services - it's that they don't want to admit to themselves that they might have a life-threatening problem. I'm sure you've seen this before in your line or work, right? :-)

 

Again, nobody says to call an ambulance for pine cone scratches, or dirty kneees.

 

But yet people do, all the time! And, apparently for tick bites, too!

 

The person who called EMS does not have the training to know the difference.

 

And that's the problem. It has nothing to do with training - it has to do with education on how to appropriately use emergency services, and also has to do with common sense. Don't we teach Cub Scouts how to recognize "hurry cases," and what types of injuries are and aren't emergencies? And for the people who legitimately don't know the difference, that's why EMS, hospitals and other community organizations educate people on how to appropriately use our emergency services, and how to appropriately access the health care system. And that education rarely comes in the form of, "when in doubt, call!" Don't believe me? Check this out: http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=126252

 

We all know that many serious conditions can present in a similar way as non-serious conditions. I'm not criticizing people who are experiencing legitimate symptoms of an MI and call 911, but in the end it turns out to be heart burn. I am criticizing people who refuse to use any common sense at all, and instead take a "when in doubt, call 911!" attitude.

 

Realistically, would you encourage anyone experiencing heart burn to immediately call 911 and go to the ED, just in case it's an MI? ("When in doubt!", right?) If people took you up on this, two things would happen:

1) The makers of Tums would go out of business

2) EMS services and hospital EDs would rapidly become overwhelmed (that is, more overwhelmed than they already are) with "patients" with no emergent medical condition.