What standard for completing requirements do you use?

[Armymutt]

We're trying to correct what I, and the acting SM, perceive as failures of previous adult and youth leaders in our troop, and the troops from which we have received Scouts.  We have a number of Scouts in the Star, Life, and Eagle ranks who can't do basic Scoutcraft.  I'm of the mindset that a Scout should be competent at the skills of the previous rank, and an expert at the skills of the ranks below that.  For example, I expect a First Class Scout to have no problem tying a square knot, two half hitches, or a taught line hitch. 

The Guide to Advancement says this:  It is important to remember that in the end, badges recognize that Scouts have gone through experiences of learning things they did not previously know. Through increased confidence, Scouts discover or realize they are able to learn a variety of skills and disciplines. Advancement is thus about what Scouts are now able to learn and to do, and how they have grown. Retention of skills and knowledge is then developed later by using what has been learned through the natural course of unit programming; for example, instructing others and using skills in games and on outings.

When the requirement says, "Show first aid for the following:", does it mean using the book or from memory?  I lean more toward memory with prompting from the examiner.  That's what we did this weekend.  I have a feeling other leaders have taken a more Cub Scout view of things and if the Scout did it in the class while mimicking the instructor, that was good enough.  Consequently, unless the unit actually follows the last sentence of the relevant portion of the guide, the Scout never develops the skill.  

[mrjohns2]

4 hours ago, Armymutt said:

When the requirement says, "Show first aid for the following:", does it mean using the book or from memory? 

I think it has to all be from memory. If a Scout wants to work with me on a skill, they are more than welcome to use the book. We learn together, we use the book as a guide and aid. That doesn't count for a sign off, though. Come back the next day, demonstrate the skill without an aid, notes, etc, then I will sign it off. 

This is why I find "merit badge days" so hard to staff. It is hard to do that without requiring pre-reqs that are actually done. 

Edited yesterday at 03:03 AM by mrjohns2

[Tron]

So when you read the GTA, the Troop Leader Guides, etc ... the reality of the program is that getting something checked off for rank requirement requires only ever having done it successfully once. Now what separates a rank mill from a real scout troop is what happens afterwards. A good scout troop has a regular calendar and rotates through scoutcraft regularly which provides two things: First it allows scouts to revisit that skill and practice. Secondly it provides an enablement opportunity for those senior scouts to teach and thus master their scoutcraft through having to know the task well enough to explain it and  teach it. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, Tron said:

So when you read the GTA, the Troop Leader Guides, etc ... the reality of the program is that getting something checked off for rank requirement requires only ever having done it successfully once. Now what separates a rank mill from a real scout troop is what happens afterwards. A good scout troop has a regular calendar and rotates through scoutcraft regularly which provides two things: First it allows scouts to revisit that skill and practice. Secondly it provides an enablement opportunity for those senior scouts to teach and thus master their scoutcraft through having to know the task well enough to explain it and  teach it. 

Agree... but making this a reality is quite difficult, as it is the Scouts (PLC) who choose their activities and calendar. 

If it was up to me (I would be an excellent SPL 😜 ) then the schedule and activities would be radically different.

But, as I understand the program, I can only suggest and mentor, and step in (veto) only in cases of health and safety.

[Tron]

4 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Agree... but making this a reality is quite difficult, as it is the Scouts (PLC) who choose their activities and calendar. 

If it was up to me (I would be an excellent SPL 😜 ) then the schedule and activities would be radically different.

But, as I understand the program, I can only suggest and mentor, and step in (veto) only in cases of health and safety.

Scouts pick but they don't. This isn't the scouts get to do what they want program, this is the scouts get to lead and do things that interest them but they still have to run "the program". As adults we're the framework to make sure the program is being ran. Think of it like a Montessori school. We know that in any given 18 month period national wants us to provide a program that provides the opportunity for a scout to get from nothing to 1st class rank and star soon thereafter; so everything for scout through 1st class has to get covered at some point in any given 18 month period. Say you have a PLC that hates land navigation, sure they can push it off, maybe they love swimming and swim for one meeting every month, but sometime in that 18 month period the adults have the duty to force the PLC to accept the fact that they have to do land navigation, at least enough to teach the new crossovers so they can advance. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

38 minutes ago, Tron said:

force the PLC to accept the fact that they have to do land navigation

Hmmm... different philosophies, I guess.  If they do not schedule any events where map and compass or orienteering events, or aquatics, or whatever, are available for those who need them, as a Scoutmaster, I advise them of the need to provide those opportunities for advancement, but do not "force"  anything on the PLC, other than decisions which affect health and safety.

And, I am curious... what exactly do you mean by "force."  Do you dictate their schedule?  

[DuctTape]

Use the method of adult association via scoutmaster conferences to help the youth leaders achieve scouting's aim of making ethical choices within their programming decisions.

[Tron]

6 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Hmmm... different philosophies, I guess.  If they do not schedule any events where map and compass or orienteering events, or aquatics, or whatever, are available for those who need them, as a Scoutmaster, I advise them of the need to provide those opportunities for advancement, but do not "force"  anything on the PLC, other than decisions which affect health and safety.

And, I am curious... what exactly do you mean by "force."  Do you dictate their schedule?  

In my opinion it becomes a situation where the PLC is told that the program includes those items that they hate, they have to do them at least once in every 18 month period. The PLC gets told that they have an obligation to run the program and ensure that the younger and newer scouts get a chance to advance. 

Not running the program is what kills troops, every time. When the district committee does a postmortem on a unit that surrenders it's charter it is literally the exact same thing every time: Not running the program, which leads to scouts not advancing, which leads to them quitting or transferring out, which leads to structural imbalance in age distribution, which becomes a red flag to crossover families, whom then go somewhere else. 

Think of it this way, the PLC is the management but the scouters are the board of directors. 

[Eagle94-A1]

17 hours ago, Tron said:

We know that in any given 18 month period national wants us to provide a program that provides the opportunity for a scout to get from nothing to 1st class rank and star soon thereafter; so everything for scout through 1st class has to get covered at some point in any given 18 month period.

You do know that the research for "OPERATION FIRST CLASS," "First Class, First Year," or whatever it is called now is deeply flawed?

The research was done in the 1980s, and the idea came out in August 1989. That's  when they did away with Skill Awards, time requirements for Tenderfoor, Second Class, and First Class, and went from "Master the Skills," to "The Badge represents what a Scout CAN DO (SIC), not what he has done." mentality which IMHO leads to "One and Done."

Research showed that Scouts who got First Class in 18 months stay around longer, which is true. BUT what was not included in the stats was 2 things: 1.How active a unit is and 2. LDS units.

The more active a troop is, doing the activities the Scouts want to do, will lead to  retention. Yes advancement is slower, but those Scouts stick around longer. Best example is my soon to be 21 y.o. ASM.  He spent 4 years working on First Class as the swimming requirement was the issue. But the troop dis activities he liked, and he stuck around. He eventually passed the swim test, and earned Eagle. He has stuck around as much as possible while in college.  And all of my Eagles have stuck around until 18, or until they started college. Why? Because we are active and do the activities they want to do. But  the surveyors dis not show how active a troop was in their results.  

The LDS units would segregate their 11 year old Scouts. I have seen lesson plans where the 11 year old patrol would repeat the same program every year. They were treated as if they were still Cub Scouts, with an ASM serving more as a DL, and TGs acting more like  den chiefs. Their program guaranteed them First Class in one year. One reason why LDS units got upset when the Camping requirement for First Class  went from 4 camp outs to 6 campouts in 2016: their 11 year olds were not allowed to camp more than 4 times /year.  And their protest changed it back to 4 (aside this ticked off my middle son as he had to wait 2 months to get the 6 campouts in, and right as he goes for his First Class BOR, National changed it back to 4. He was ticked off) And since the LDS used Scouting as their youth program, ALL (emphasis) males were registered in their troops, whether they were active or not. That skewed the data.

So do not take the First Class, First Year to seriously. If you push it, you will have Scouts get bored, note care, leave, or stick around long enough to get Eagle and then quit. I have seen this happen with a lot over the years.

 

[Eagle94-A1]

10 hours ago, Tron said:

Not running the program is what kills troops, every time. When the district committee does a postmortem on a unit that surrenders it's charter it is literally the exact same thing every time: Not running the program, which leads to scouts not advancing, which leads to them quitting or transferring out, which leads to structural imbalance in age distribution, which becomes a red flag to crossover families, whom then go somewhere else. 

Depends upon circumstances. My unit follows the program, retains Scouts, even long after they earn Eagle in some cases. We have an active program that the Scouts pick. Adults do not force them to do an activity they do not want to do.  But we have no feeder pack, and have not in at least 15 years. Troop always had transfers into it. Out of the 7 on my charter, 5 transferred from other troops, and 1 had his older brothers transfer into it.  And the troop has survived by having an active, Scout-led program since before I transferred 7 years ago. I cannot find the stat now, but last time I checked 90+% of Scouts move up from Cub Scouts. And usually troops die within 6 years of packs folding.  The other troop without a pack has not had one in 5 years, and they may be folding. The 2 troops with packs have wised up, and started imitating us. Not only do they jealously guard their Cub Scout packs, they are now retaining their Scouts. One of those troops, is the one I transferred from. I almost had 1/2 the troop transfer with me, until the COR stepped in.

And in my neck of the woods, lack of Cub Scout recruiting is the #1 reason units are folding.

[Tron]

38 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Depends upon circumstances. My unit follows the program, retains Scouts, even long after they earn Eagle in some cases. We have an active program that the Scouts pick. Adults do not force them to do an activity they do not want to do.  But we have no feeder pack, and have not in at least 15 years. Troop always had transfers into it. Out of the 7 on my charter, 5 transferred from other troops, and 1 had his older brothers transfer into it.  And the troop has survived by having an active, Scout-led program since before I transferred 7 years ago. I cannot find the stat now, but last time I checked 90+% of Scouts move up from Cub Scouts. And usually troops die within 6 years of packs folding.  The other troop without a pack has not had one in 5 years, and they may be folding. The 2 troops with packs have wised up, and started imitating us. Not only do they jealously guard their Cub Scout packs, they are now retaining their Scouts. One of those troops, is the one I transferred from. I almost had 1/2 the troop transfer with me, until the COR stepped in.

And in my neck of the woods, lack of Cub Scout recruiting is the #1 reason units are folding.

The stat is 90% of eagle scouts came out of cub scouting. The number of scouts bsa members that came out of cub scouting is 70% (last time I saw the numbers). 

Are you saying you have a troop of 7? 

[Eagle94-A1]

Thanks for the updated stats.  

You are correct.. Don't ask about recruiting outside of school round ups and talks. We do them, and most boys interested in what we do are already in Scouts. And those troop are catching on to focusing on adventure, not advancement. I have recruited more girls for the girls troop. One Girl Scout said she wished her GSUSA troop would do some of the stuff we do. When I mentioned the girls troop she said, " My mom would kill me. She works for the Girl Scouts."

[Tron]

4 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Thanks for the updated stats.  

You are correct.. Don't ask about recruiting outside of school round ups and talks. We do them, and most boys interested in what we do are already in Scouts. And those troop are catching on to focusing on adventure, not advancement. I have recruited more girls for the girls troop. One Girl Scout said she wished her GSUSA troop would do some of the stuff we do. When I mentioned the girls troop she said, " My mom would kill me. She works for the Girl Scouts."

I think GSUSA is killing themselves with the school grade bands for rank advancement.