Ojoman 157 Posted February 5 Author Share Posted February 5 2 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said: If the two organizations did merge in the future, Trust me, even after hell freezes over the BSA and GSA will not merge. There are just too many differences from program structure to philosophical and frankly some 'resentment' built up over the years. It would make sense for a merger but just won't ever happen. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
skeptic 997 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 1 hour ago, Ojoman said: Trust me, even after hell freezes over the BSA and GSA will not merge. There are just too many differences from program structure to philosophical and frankly some 'resentment' built up over the years. It would make sense for a merger but just won't ever happen. And that is simply a very poor reflection on both groups, or actually on those that make those types of decisions for them. Just like in many units, the worst problems too often are related to the so-called adults in the rooms. IF they were focused on the youth, they would do what is best for all. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
fred8033 1593 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 16 hours ago, Ojoman said: Trust me, even after hell freezes over the BSA and GSA will not merge. There are just too many differences from program structure to philosophical and frankly some 'resentment' built up over the years. It would make sense for a merger but just won't ever happen. Correct. Resentment might be workable (even though it's very, very real and alive). The real issue is BSA and GSA are only similar in name; not much else. Might as well say BSA should merge with 4H or Civil Air Patrol or Boys and Girl Clubs or etc, etc, etc. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle94-A1 2687 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 3 minutes ago, fred8033 said: The real issue is BSA and GSA are only similar in name; not much else. Might as well say BSA should merge with 4H or Civil Air Patrol or Boys and Girl Clubs or etc, etc, etc. Campfire. If memory serves, Campfire Girls, now Campfire was the official female counterpart to BSA, started by a bunch of the same folks. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
AwakeEnergyScouter 247 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 3 minutes ago, fred8033 said: The real issue is BSA and GSA are only similar in name; not much else. Might as well say BSA should merge with 4H or Civil Air Patrol or Boys and Girl Clubs or etc, etc, etc. They have the lineage and the Scout Promise and Law to go with it, do they not? What makes you say that two aligned scouting organizations are only similar in name? Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle94-A1 2687 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 16 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said: They have the lineage and the Scout Promise and Law to go with it, do they not? What makes you say that two aligned scouting organizations are only similar in name? The GSUSA Promise and Law are similar, but different. Some of the differences include the following: Organization Model BSA uses the charter organization concept, think franchisees, whereas GSUSA owns each and every unit. As a result you get Scouts BSA units that are 25, 50, 100+ years old GSUSA units last until there is no longer enough folks left to be a troop, and have short histories, Philosophy BSA believes that "OUTING is three-fourth of ScOUTING," and in 2019 had 85% of its members camping at least once per year. GSUSA in 2019 was proud that 12-15% of its membership camps at least once a year. More later 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Ojoman 157 Posted February 5 Author Share Posted February 5 3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said: Campfire was the official female counterpart to BSA Been Campfire boys and girls for a long time and yes, it was the original 'sister program' to the BSA... Link to post Share on other sites
Jameson76 1485 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 On 1/31/2024 at 11:44 AM, Eagledad said: I here what you are saying, I also always had balanced growth of both youth and adult membership. My nature is problem solving areas where performance is lacking. Whether in my job, home, even scouts, I like to evaluate and search to improve performance. And I have done a lot, A LOT, performance evaluation over the years of why the BSA is loosing membership. And it comes down to National changing policies for the purpose of increasing membership. The changes made in the 70's basically shifted adventure part of the program to more focus on advancement. When you look at the policy changes the since the 70s, many are small, but clear shifts from adventure toward advancement, with the bigger purpose of increasing leadership. Don't underscore or short sell the seismic changes BSA National determined were the next best thing in the 1970's. When incorporated (skill awards were going to be awesome) BSA Membership 1971 - 4.8 million, 1981 - 3.2 million. That is losing a 1/3 of your members in 10 years. The organization has never recovered from the decision switch to focus on advancement and not adventure. After the great change in the mid-70's it was possible to earn Eagle Scout and never swim, never camp and basically never go outside. If you were on a hike and got lost the advise IN THE SCOUT HANDBOOK was to ask a police officer for directions. Urban Scouting at it's best. For those of us as Scouts then there was a hierarchy among Eagle Scouts, were you an OLD Eagle or a NEW Eagle? Those of use that squeaked in by 12/31/1973 had the swagger of being the OLD Eagle. If your unit leader was on point, they dug out an OLD Eagle patch for you. With the MBO focus now no one EVER goes and talks with successful units. The unit has 75% retention, Scouts stay until they age out, 30 nights camping per year, engaged adults, nope, no need to go see what they are doing. We've got popcorn, camp cards, FOS to worry about. Hey, come to roundtable for no discernible reason or value. BSA needs to cut Cubs to 3 years, focus on adventure, and do more benchmarking for units, and stop trying to be the swiss army knife of youth organizations. You know what travel baseball does well, they play baseball. We go to market with BSA we are outdoors, no wait leadership development, no wait STEM, no wait life skills, no wait service, not wait hobbies, no wait [insert flavor of the month] If there was any actual marketing for BSA we could focus on adventure, and your youth having many experiences. We do outdoors good, that is the laboratory, stick with that. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites
fred8033 1593 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 5 minutes ago, Jameson76 said: ... 30 nights camping per year ... cut Cubs to 3 years ... focus on adventure ... stop trying to be the swiss army knife of youth organizations ... youth having many experiences ... We do outdoors good, that is the laboratory, stick with that. Dead on right. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
InquisitiveScouter 1656 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 14 minutes ago, Jameson76 said: With the MBO focus now no one EVER goes and talks with successful units. The unit has 75% retention, Scouts stay until they age out, 30 nights camping per year, engaged adults, nope, no need to go see what they are doing. We've got popcorn, camp cards, FOS to worry about. Hey, come to roundtable for no discernible reason or value. Hey, wait... are we in the same council? Just looked at the training stats for our council/district. Only 68% of unit leaders have finished their position required training. Or, from the other angle, 32%, council-wide, have not completed their basic position training. There's a good place to start... We are the only unit with 100% trained adults in our district. Council-wide, we are the largest of 8 units with 100% trained. Gold JTE for the past 7 years... (so >= 85% retention year over year, >= 9 short term outings per annum, >=70% of Troop at summer camp, etc. etc. etc.) The only interest we have ever gotten from council, in my time here, is to ask why we weren't having FOS presentations in our unit, and to ask why we did not attend our local Summer Camp. (the answer is because the PLC decided to go to other camps, and the committee voted each year not to have FOS presentations) Council did not like those answers from me the Scoutmaster... not my decision in either arena... shows a complete lack of unit organization/unit program understanding to hold those against any SM. smh 3 Link to post Share on other sites
InquisitiveScouter 1656 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 30 minutes ago, Jameson76 said: We do outdoors good, that is the laboratory, stick with that. And we are missing a great opportunity to be THE organization that puts outdoor stewardship as a core value while we are in the outdoors. We dabble in it... to get requirements signed off... 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Jameson76 1485 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 (edited) 5 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said: And we are missing a great opportunity to be THE organization that puts outdoor stewardship as a core value while we are in the outdoors. We dabble in it... to get requirements signed off... True - oh so true. When we are out and about during the outing closing etc leadership always tries to bring up that the state parks, WMA's, National Forest, National Battlefields etc are preserved areas and it takes support to keep them. We mention that as Scouts we may have have camped / hike at the same place. We need to do what we can to help preserve and promote the public lands. Outdoor Code is more than 27 words and Leave No Trace needs to apply any time you are out in the woods. BSA should be the experts in this and SMEs (Subject Matter Experts). Edited February 5 by Jameson76 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites
InquisitiveScouter 1656 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 1 minute ago, Jameson76 said: True - oh so true. When we are out and about during the closing etc leadership always tries to bring up that the state parks, WMA's, National Forest, National Battlefields etc are preserved areas and it takes support to keep them. We mention that as Scouts we may have have camped / hike at the same place. We need to do what we can to help preserve and promote the public lands. Outdoor Code is more than 27 words and Leave No Trace needs to apply any time you are out in the woods. BSA should be the experts in this and SMEs (Subject Matter Experts). Bring back a Bird Study as Eagle required! Or make it one of a group... Bird/Mammal/Insect/Reptile and Amphibian/Fish and Wildlife Mgmt/Forestry/etc etc etc Drop Cit in Society ASAP... 2 Link to post Share on other sites
DuctTape 1231 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 11 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said: Bring back a Bird Study as Eagle required! Or make it one of a group... Bird/Mammal/Insect/Reptile and Amphibian/Fish and Wildlife Mgmt/Forestry/etc etc etc Drop Cit in Society ASAP... For how long have we here at Scouter.com advocated for required mBs to be in groups/categories of which the scout could choose? 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Jameson76 1485 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 Just now, DuctTape said: For how long have we here at Scouter.com advocated for required mBs to be in groups/categories of which the scout could choose? While a good plan, just be careful to make sure the challenge and adventure is included. In the 70's and in the skill award days you could pick from 12 and had to earn 8 for Tfoot - 1st Class. Only required ones were First Aid and Citizenship. You could earn Family Living, Community Living, Communications, Environment, Physical Fitness, and Conservation and do minimal outdoor stuff. Swimming, Camping, and Cooking merit badge were not Eagle required. Yes, you could attain Eagle Scout rank and NEVER camp, NEVER build a fire, NEVER hike. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now