Pack hiking club off to a good start!

[AwakeEnergyScouter 247]

Our new pack hiking club launched yesterday! 

Upon joining, scouts get an empty dongle with a locally sourced wood slice with PACK X / HIKING CLUB burned onto it (see picture, pack number erased since this is a public forum). For 5, 10, 20, 30, and 40 miles hiked scouts get a bead to thread on the lace, each in the colors of the symbols of the "parts" of flowing, dignified mental energy, windhorse. (So, connecting to 'cheerful', 'brave', and 'mentally awake'.) The colors are yellow for warm genuine heart, orange for meek like tiger, white for cheerful like snow lion, red for outrageous like Garuda, and blue for inscrutable like dragon. They don't know the symbolism yet, I will point it out piece by piece as they earn beads. At 50 miles, they get a hiking stick.

The two hike scout leaders have the jobs of carrying windhorse flags on a pole to show the direction clearly and using a map and compass to find the right path. A flagbearer and a pathfinder.

I wanted to make sure this first one was a lot of fun and set a good tone for what the fun in hiking is, so we hiked 2 miles at a nature conservation center with a knowledgeable volunteer wildlife and conservation work guide. It completely worked; when it was time to pull out some insect and animal track activities, nobody cares because the scouts were so busy looking for both on their own with a lot of excitement. I counted that as a win and let them. We saw and identified so many animals and plants that we far exceeded the hiking adventure requirements for everyone who came. And since it was at a conservation center, and we hiked 2 miles (and no Webelos came), everyone who hiked also finished their rank hiking adventure!

Because summer is the difficult and maybe dangerous hiking season where we live, we substituted the usual hot chocolate for tough weather for fruit popsicles to cool down at the end. Only some melted in the icebox 🤪 🏜️

Edited June 18, 2023 by AwakeEnergyScouter
Added the dignified attribute to be more precise

[InquisitiveScouter 1656]

You can enter their miles in Scoutbook, to keep track for later awards in Scouts, BSA.

Those miles count towards National Outdoor Achievement Award!

Best Wishes!

[AwakeEnergyScouter 247]

Thanks, @InquisitiveScouter! I wasn't going to log them in Scoutbook, because I thought it didn't really count yet, but if it does then the scouts deserve all credit!

Thanks for letting me know, so that I can serve my scouts much better! 🙇🏼‍♀️

I will also prepare a little information for crossovers, then, showing them how they're already on their way towards that grand award!

[InquisitiveScouter 1656]

You are welcome!

Here is an article that may further clarify:

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/03/13/interpreting-under-the-auspices-in-national-outdoor-awards-requirements/

P.S. So any boating, swimming, cycling, camping, hiking, etc., done as a Cub Scout counts!

Edited June 18, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[AwakeEnergyScouter 247]

I'm planning a paddling hike for the Bears to really practice those Salmon Run skills, so I'm going to log that too, plus the camping and the yearly swimming event we do! Thanks again 🙇🏼‍♀️

My goal as ADL is to send well-prepared and genuine scouts on into the proper BSA scouting program, and here's a great way to measure whether I'm succeeding. The Bears should cross over with some tangible progress on that, partly in situations where they were in charge and had to grapple with the difficulties of taking the reins and then using them skillfully for the right reasons.

The pathfinder and flagbearer on this first hike immediately learned some important basics, like that you need some technical skills to be able to see where you should go and that others may not respect your new authority. The naturalist made both matter less, but next month we will revisit how a group following a leader is actually a form of cooperation, if everyone follows a certain role, and how that role isn't your Self.

[scoutldr 732]

Please take the mandatory Safety Afloat and Safe Swim Defense training.  As I recall, Cub Scouts are not permitted on running water.  

[InquisitiveScouter 1656]

9 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

Please take the mandatory Safety Afloat and Safe Swim Defense training.  As I recall, Cub Scouts are not permitted on running water.  

@scoutldr is correct.

"Cub Scout activities afloat are limited to council, district, pack, or den events that do not include moving water or float trips (expeditions)."

See in depth Safety Afloat in Guide to Safe Scouting.

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss02/#j

[AwakeEnergyScouter 247]

Already done before planning the trip!

In Safety Afloat, they focus on what is and isn't allowed based on swimming ability; that none of our Bears will be classified as swimmers also takes care of that they're there to learn paddling skills and aren't already ready to control the crafts by themselves. Each canoe or double kayak will have one scout and one parent, who is the swimmer and main paddler.

The Age Appropriate Guidelines for Scouting Activities explicitly allows Wolves and up to operate paddle craft on calm or gently flowing water. I have located a commercial canoe rental service on a gently flowing river section on which Cub Scouts already regularly go paddling - but since we're not allowed to do any class of rapids, we will have to turn around at a certain point, which is just as well since everyone is still learning and we don't want to go too far.

Since the Bear adventure Salmon Run includes showing proper rowing and paddling form, it seems asinine to ask the scouts to only practice on dry land! It's adventure time 🛶

Be prepared 🫡

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

52 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

The Age Appropriate Guidelines for Scouting Activities explicitly allows Wolves and up to operate paddle craft on calm or gently flowing water. I have located a commercial canoe rental service on a gently flowing river section on which Cub Scouts already regularly go paddling - but since we're not allowed to do any class of rapids, we will have to turn around at a certain point, which is just as well since everyone is still learning and we don't want to go too far.

CUBS CANNOT DO GENTLY FLOWING WATER SOURCES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  (caps, bold underlining and size for major emphasis, now and moving forward)

Note the Aquatics Subsection of https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/HealthSafety/pdf/680-685.pdf states "Aquatics (See Safe Swim Defense, and Safety Afloat for restrictions based on skills, such as swimming ability, rather than age.)"

 

Safety Afloat states "BSA groups shall use Safety Afloat for all boating activities. Adult leaders supervising activities afloat must have completed Safety Afloat training within the previous two years. Cub Scout activities afloat are limited to council, district, pack, or den events that do not include moving water or float trips (expeditions). "

So Cubs are NOT allowed on 'gently flowing" as that is moving water. Whoever is telling you otherwise is incorrect, and the Age Appropriate Guidelines need some clarification . I've seen scouts and adults get into some trouble even in "gently flowing" rivers.

1 hour ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Since the Bear adventure Salmon Run includes showing proper rowing and paddling form, it seems asinine to ask the scouts to only practice on dry land!

FYI, prior to June 2015 CS program changes, the equivalent requirements under the old CS program could only be met at District/Council camps, i.e. day camp and resident, and were electives or Arrow Points received AFTER earning the Bear badge. And some areas could nto do them due to restrictions (Camp Standards required BSA Aquatic  Superrvisors running these) When the 411 Cub Scout Committee was revamping the Cub Scout program, My friend on that committee was excited to make it an elective to earn rank. I had to remind him that Cubs were not allowed to do boating activities except at district/council level activities, Long Story short, the 411 committee pushed to allow Packs and Dens to do CS boating activities. One reason why I hated losing the local camp is because it was the only council camp that had a lake and Cubs could do boating.

 

[AwakeEnergyScouter 247]

There's no need to yell. We are having a disagreement between two reasonable people about how to interpret written guidelines, nothing more. Or are you perhaps unaware that using all caps is considered yelling on the Internet?

I noted your point, namely that the Safety Afloat section in the current Guide to Safe Scouting says "Cub Scout activities afloat are limited to council, district, pack, or den events that do not include moving water or float trips (expeditions)." I am looking at the GTSS as I am typing this; I noted the point, read the whole section, re-took Safety Afloat to check if I misremembered or missed a key point, and checked the Age Appropriate Guidelines again to make sure that I am prepared and doing the right thing.

Our disagreement hinges on "moving". Taken literally, any flow in any direction in any body of water above 0.00 cm/s is moving, and Cub Scouts can only paddle in old flooded mine shafts. Ok, a bit dramatic, but a literal zero flow rate of any kind is very rare even in lakes. Have you never been swimming in a lake only to suddenly find you swam into a current? Or realized as you're rowing that you have to counter one? Surely, what matters isn't a literally zero flow rate but rather that it be barely noticable even for a beginner, especially since water with literally no flow is going to be full of bacteria and not wise to be in, and any water we boat in we need to be prepared to enter unexpectedly.

So the question is really, in my view, moving how much. How much current is too much? The Safety Afloat training course cutoff is no rapids for Cub Scouts - that's nice and objective, too. It's also consistent with the Age Appropriate Guideline, which you says needs clarification.

They certainly do, if you are right. Given that they say explicitly that even Wolves are allowed on gently flowing water and can even go tubing (which requires moving water or it's not tubing), it's not an unreasonable interpretation to think that "moving" in the GTSS means "rapids". In my opinion, it is the GTSS that needs clarification, because that one sentence is much more vague than the AAG.

I am not relying on others to check on safety for me, I went straight to the horse's mouth and took the relevant training, and that's "who" is telling me that river sections without rapids are ok for Cub Scouts. But, in again checking my interpretation, I searched more broadly, and turned up more BSA official channels that explicitly say it's ok, like the AAG.

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2022/06/27/what-to-know-before-taking-cub-scouts-in-or-near-the-water/

You are of course free to disagree, but let's not yell, please.

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

@AwakeEnergyScouter

As I stated, the caps, bold, etc was for emphasis, not shouting, This is an extremely important topic, and a personal one. Camp I went to and worked at did have an aquatics fatality. 

 Cubs can do ponds, small lakes, and other still bodies of water.  ANY ( again emphasis not shouting) flowing and Cubs cannot use it, even "gently flowing." I have seen Scouts and adults have some challenges in gently flowing water. Heck I have seen Scouts and Adults have trouble on a pond when the wind picked up.

 I have not taken the new online SA course, as I took the live SA class last year as part of the Aquatics Supervision: Paddle Sports Class. So I cannot I cannot comment on that.  But I can comment that A. Age Appropriate Guideline also states you need to check out the SA link and B. the Safety Afloat  link states Cub Scouts cannot be on moving water.

Serious question, can you show me where tubbing on flowing water is allowed for Cubs? Only tubbing I have seen for Cubs is in pools, ponds, and lakes, essentially still water.

My concerns for the activity you propose are based upon 21 years in various positions: BSA Lifeguard, summer camp aquatics staff, Cub Scout day camp director, BSA Aquatics Supervision certificatio, etc. BSA has been very clear: no moving water for Cub Scouts.  Again up until 2015, Packs and Dens couldn't even do boating activities except at council events.  As I stated I went to a camp that had a fatality, and it shut down the entire aquatics program the rest of the summer. One of the things drilled onto aquatics staff there is you follow the rules to the letter. 

 If you do not want to take our advice, ask @RichardB about it. He is the National Safety Guru.  We may not like what he says and writes, but he is Mr. GTSS, and we do need to follow it as it is policy.

 

Good luck

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by Eagle94-A1

[mrjohns2 582]

6 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

How much current is too much?

Anything above 0?

[AwakeEnergyScouter 247]

I appreciate the step back, thank you @Eagle94-A1

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I am getting my information 100% from official BSA sources, because safety policy is important. I am not saying that I want to ignore safety policy. I am quoting live, actual BSA training and guidance. I am far from the only person to interpret the AAG in this way, as I have already offered you evidence for. I am not proposing changes, I am quoting existing BSA policy in official documents that the GTSS chief presumably knows. 

If you think I am misinterpreting it, then please clarify specifically how you think the Age Appropriate Guidelines should be reconciled with that single vague lines in GTSS and the absence of what you're claiming is policy in Aquatics Supervision and the online Safety Afloat class. If you think the GTSS chief's office made a bad policy, then talk to him. I'm just trying to follow the guidance his office issued, that's all. I am not in charge of these policies.

From Age Appropriate Guidelines to Scouting Activities from BSA, image of relevant aquatics section attached:

 

Whole file: https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/HealthSafety/pdf/680-685.pdf

In the aquatics section, there's a line labeled "Tubing (floating in gently flowing water)", for which there are checks in the Wolf/Bear Scouts and Webelos columns. Wolf, Bear, and Webelos scouts are Cub Scouts, and the activity description explicitly says this is in flowing water, not water with a 0 m/s flow rate. So, since this is quite explicit and clear, I interpret this to mean that Wolves and Bears ranked as Swimmers can go tubing in gently flowing water.

Right below that line, also in the aquatics section, is the activity "Paddle Sports: Youth Operated on Calm or Gently Flowing Water". For this activity, there is a shared note in the Lion and Tiger columns that says "Passengers Only", which I interpret to mean that Lions and Tigers, who are Cub Scouts, may ride as passengers in paddled craft such as canoes and double kayaks. There is also a clarification note across all of the other columns, so including more Cub Scout ranks, that says "Paddle Sports Include Canoes, Kayaks, Pedal Boats, Rafts, Rowboats, SUP". I interpret this to mean that Wolves, Bears, and Webelos may, if they have sufficient swimming and paddling skills, operate their own canoe, kayaks, pedal boats, rafts, Rowboats, and SUPs on calm or gently flowing water, i e no rapids, not even class I. This activity description also explicitly says flowing water, not motionless water.

Further, this information in the Age Appropriate Guidelines to Scouting Activities is reflected elsewhere in official Scouting media:

Aaron on Scouting:
https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2022/06/27/what-to-know-before-taking-cub-scouts-in-or-near-the-water/

"But what about canoeing, kayaking or row boating on still water — water that is calmer than Class I rapids? Yes, but Lions and Tigers are allowed to be passengers only.

What about tubing — floating in gently moving water? Yes, but only for Wolf and older."

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2023/05/25/now-is-a-great-time-to-refocus-on-aquatics-safety/

"Wolf Cub Scouts and older can participate in tubing activities in gently flowing water.

Lions and Tiger Cub Scouts can ride as passengers in paddle sports, including canoeing, kayaking, pedal boats, rafts and row boats; older Cub Scouts can fully participate in those activities."

Scouting Magazine: https://scoutingmagazine.org/2020/05/five-steps-to-a-safe-and-fun-aquatics-program/

"For example, tubing — floating in gently flowing water — is available to Wolf Scouts and older. It doesn’t matter if a Tiger or Lion Scout in your pack has gone tubing dozens of times with their family; when it comes to official Scout events, only Wolf Scouts and older can go tubing.

Then you’ve got paddle sports. Lions and Tigers can only ride in a canoe on calm water, whereas older Cub Scouts can actually start to learn paddle strokes."

Cub Chat Live on water safety: Listen from 11:36 of https://www.youtube.com/live/hjwOa4FD23Q?feature=share

This is all almost verbatim from the AAG, over and over, all in official BSA policy and communication channels. So, if you see a better interpretation of the sum of all official BSA aquatics safety policies and documents, please explain it specifically so that I can understand what logic you are using, please.

 

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

@AwakeEnergyScouter,

Thank you very much for the links. I noticed that the publications and sources you are cited are 2020 -2023. THIS MAY BE EXCELLENT NEWS FOR CUB SCOUTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (This time I am shouting, in  joy   )  I stress the may be (is bold better?) because the current, online  Guide to Safe Scouting stills says "Cub Scout activities afloat are limited to council, district, pack, or den events that do not include moving water or float trips (expeditions)."  Plus your sources do state:

"• Cub Scouts do not participate in aquatics activities on moving water, such as river canoeing or whitewater sports." (2020)

But the 2022 article states.

"But what about canoeing, kayaking or row boating on still water — water that is calmer than Class I rapids? Yes, but Lions and Tigers are allowed to be passengers only."

 

[AwakeEnergyScouter 247]

Right. Thank you for checking.

So the documents taken as a whole do contradict each other if interpreted literally, but I think the very clear and explicit permission in the AAG ought to take preference because it makes sense to let cubs practice in gentle waters given the adventures they have, because it's so explicit and clearly not a mistake or mis-inference of a single word or something like that, and because official BSA channels keep transmitting the information in the AAG rather than the one line in the GTSS.

If this used to be forbidden, then it seems likely the one line in GTSS is simply a leftover. 

I check my sources, I check policies, and I keep current on training. I plan outings months in advance to make sure they are safe and well thought out. I even sew on badges ASAP. Because I'm prepared, as an example for the scouts.