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17 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

think it is the core leadership singling them out.

Yeah...pretty much is the case and that's OK.  These families need to understand what the Scouting program is, but more importantly what it is not.

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Update with the old troop.

As you all know, I still have friends with them. Heck the SM, an ASM, and I are suppose to be backpacking together in a few weeks. So I am still hearing about them. Last night was the parents meeting about the new policies.

THE PARENTS DON'T GET IT! (emphasis)

Apparently they have concerns about possible first aid situations ( multiple Scouts have FA MB,  several adults have basic FA, 2 have WFA, one adult is a RN and another is a MD, I think they have FA covered). And another does not see why she cannot follow her son around on camp outs just for the day. SHE DOES NOT GET THAT THE OTHER SCOUTS IN THE TROOP DO NOT WANT HER, HER SON, AND OTHER UNTRAINED ADULTS AROUND! (emphasis) while messaging amongst my friends, I reminded them that the son almost  lost his head on the catapult course because he was interfering with the patrol ( mom was there but not watching son) and that her husband violated range rules by coming to a hot firing line without permission. Not to mention the fact that the husband took over the QM's job and completley ignored the Patrol Method or the other adult  countermanding the SPL so that together it took 2 to 3 times as long to set up camp in the rain than it would normally take.

My friends are predicting the two main problem families will leave. They are joking around saying they are going to send them to my new troop.

The unfortunate thing is that one family will probably leave that has not caused problems. Long story short, Mom is extremely protective of her son, and wants dad to camp. Dad is a former Scout, know how things are suppose to be, and when bothered by his son tell him to go see his PL or "Go away you horrible Scout." :) So dad is basically there to relax and keep Mom happy. with the new rules, he can no longer camp, and Mom is not happy. That family I would not mind coming to my new troop as they have the right attitude: let the son do his thing and not interfere.

Several cans of beer and a bottle of Scotch were opened by my friends once they got home after dealing with the parents. How many times must you do this before it gets through to them. This sis something like the 6th time in an 18 month period. And they still cannot believe the COR got involved in withthis topic this time.

 

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Apparently they have concerns about possible first aid situations

That's a straw man argument for sure.  Yes there are Scouts running around the woods, but seriously?  We have an average of 30 - 35 + Scouts on 13 outings annually.  Honestly we can go through many weekends with the worst thing maybe being a band-aid.  We have maybe 1 time per year that requires an after camp out medical visit.  Very rare.

If the troop has a work around for that, the issues will become how food is prepared, security concerns, or some other "issue" that requires the parents to be there.  The play seems to have many many acts

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42 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Update with the old troop.

As you all know, I still have friends with them. Heck the SM, an ASM, and I are suppose to be backpacking together in a few weeks. So I am still hearing about them. Last night was the parents meeting about the new policies.

THE PARENTS DON'T GET IT! (emphasis)

Apparently they have concerns about possible first aid situations ( multiple Scouts have FA MB,  several adults have basic FA, 2 have WFA, one adult is a RN and another is a MD, I think they have FA covered). And another does not see why she cannot follow her son around on camp outs just for the day. SHE DOES NOT GET THAT THE OTHER SCOUTS IN THE TROOP DO NOT WANT HER, HER SON, AND OTHER UNTRAINED ADULTS AROUND! (emphasis) while messaging amongst my friends, I reminded them that the son almost  lost his head on the catapult course because he was interfering with the patrol ( mom was there but not watching son) and that her husband violated range rules by coming to a hot firing line without permission. Not to mention the fact that the husband took over the QM's job and completley ignored the Patrol Method or the other adult  countermanding the SPL so that together it took 2 to 3 times as long to set up camp in the rain than it would normally take.

My friends are predicting the two main problem families will leave. They are joking around saying they are going to send them to my new troop.

The unfortunate thing is that one family will probably leave that has not caused problems. Long story short, Mom is extremely protective of her son, and wants dad to camp. Dad is a former Scout, know how things are suppose to be, and when bothered by his son tell him to go see his PL or "Go away you horrible Scout." :) So dad is basically there to relax and keep Mom happy. with the new rules, he can no longer camp, and Mom is not happy. That family I would not mind coming to my new troop as they have the right attitude: let the son do his thing and not interfere.

Several cans of beer and a bottle of Scotch were opened by my friends once they got home after dealing with the parents. How many times must you do this before it gets through to them. This sis something like the 6th time in an 18 month period. And they still cannot believe the COR got involved in withthis topic this time.

 

 

 

 

I still think your old troop needs to learn how to develop a sense of program and own it. 

In my experience it's unrealistic to expect your average new parent to just "get it" about how Scouting works in a troop.  They want the fun adventures of Scouting and the benefits of Scouting for their son or daughter.  But, most will simply not have the frame of reference to understand how things are designed to run in a troop.

My general belief is that the senior scouters in a troop need to decide how they want to implement patrol method and lead the other Scouters in making that happen.  This will then propagate out to families.  Our troop does that now and we have no policies to enforce it.  We don't have policies because we don't need them.  A new parent shows up and does something wrong, another parent or ASM will helpfully correct them.  Its impossible for someone to really stir things up because we have delegated leadership and people have jobs.  So someone can't come in and do something nutty with new Scouts because we have some new Scout ASMs who have already established a precedent on how things work.  

I feel for your old troop because I get the sense that this doesn't happen.  Instead of a shared vision of how the troop works, it's a question of who speaks last or loudest.

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In the old days, the response was first class scouts are trained for survival in the woods. There is very little the adults can add that the trained first class scout doesn’t already know. 

Many adults today don’t understand the trained skills of a true first class scout. 

Ive told this story before: our senior scouts set up a simulated car wreck for the rest of the troop hiking to the campsite. As the scouts realized they were walking into a very serious accident, they hesitated at first, then walked quickly to the scene. Once they realize the scene was set up, you could feel the relief. The senior scouts spent another 45 minutes reviewing the fake injuries and then we hiked another mile to camp.

But the troop was the first to arrive on a roll over accident on our way to summer camp Two months later. We had a couple of doctors who attended the victims while the rest of us kept the scouts back to prevent them from getting hit by another car. I will never forget a scout who looked at me and said, “you train us for this and then won’t let us help.” The scouts were trained and ready. 

Make your parents proud of their sons by training them for the unexpected.

barry

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20 hours ago, ParkMan said:

I still think your old troop needs to learn how to develop a sense of program and own it. 

In my experience it's unrealistic to expect your average new parent to just "get it" about how Scouting works in a troop.  They want the fun adventures of Scouting and the benefits of Scouting for their son or daughter.  But, most will simply not have the frame of reference to understand how things are designed to run in a troop.

My general belief is that the senior scouters in a troop need to decide how they want to implement patrol method and lead the other Scouters in making that happen.  This will then propagate out to families.  Our troop does that now and we have no policies to enforce it.  We don't have policies because we don't need them.  A new parent shows up and does something wrong, another parent or ASM will helpfully correct them.  Its impossible for someone to really stir things up because we have delegated leadership and people have jobs.  So someone can't come in and do something nutty with new Scouts because we have some new Scout ASMs who have already established a precedent on how things work.  

I feel for your old troop because I get the sense that this doesn't happen.  Instead of a shared vision of how the troop works, it's a question of who speaks last or loudest.

 

I agree, but will add there needs to be consistent enforcement by all involved. There have been a series of meetings and talks with the parents, but there has been no enforcement. That has been where some of the problems lie.Some of the adults didn't see the problems  as a big deal until they grew. Some of it was that these new families got into positions where the troop, and in my case the district camporee, depended upon them too much. Troop depended upon them to run a fundraiser. A camp out was canceled in order to do the fundraiser, and it fell through: no camp out or fundraiser happened. One dad was suppose to run what was suppose to be a major display at camporee for since he is a national certification in wilderness survival. He was causing a problem at camporee, on Friday night after taps, and threatened to leave. He didn't care that not only was I counting on him for this event, but two districts of Scouts were depending upon him to honor his commitment. I backed down. In retrospect I wish I would have told him bye. He not only didn't honor his commitment fully by creating the display he said he would and manning his event the entire day, but also complained when Scouts stopped showing up since the first patrols spread the word that the display was not there since it wasn't built. When I stopped by that afternoon, 1/2 the stuff he said he would have up was not up. In all honesty the site looked like something my middle son's Webelos den did for Castaway Activity Badge instead of something from a certified wilderness survival instructor from some outdoor school.

These two families have the attitude that if they do something, it is there way or they leave.They do not care what the PLC, SM or ASMs in charge want, it is there way or the highway.

Another update.

Apparently there is a series on back and forth messages between the two families involved and the SM. They still do not believe the CO got involved in this matter, despite the COR attending the meeting just in case there were such questions as why the church got involved. They are now saying the CO's policies violate Guide to Safe Scouting. They are using this line "All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents and leaders. The BSA does not recognize any secret organizations as part of its program." to say the troop is violating YP. I guess they are not taking into account "All adults accompanying a Scouting unit who are present at the activity for 72 total hours or more must be registered as leaders. The 72 hours need not be consecutive." nor the fact that the CO can make stricter rules on who their leaders are.

 

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