Outdoor Adventure Training - How Would You Do It?

[Hedgehog 334]

@@Stosh, what was the most exciting thing your troop did in their outdoor program last year?

 

Ours was the 25 mile bike ride to a scout camp, camping overnight and then riding 25 miles back.  No, maybe it was the day at the COPE course followed by a day rock climbing on a real rock wall.  Hang on... I forgot about the canoeing, camping on an island, canoing some more and then backpacking.  Oh, what about the campout on the beach with the bonfire.  Now, its got to be the 50 mile backpacking trek in the mountains of New Hampshire.  Or was it the sea kayaking trip?  

 

Some were scout's ideas, others came from the leaders.  All were chosen by the boys among options on a list developed by the PLC.  All of the logistics were arranged by adults (getting the campsites, renting the canoes and kayaks, arranging for service projects, etc.) but all of the outings were executed by the scouts.

 

This year, the scouts want to do whitewater rafting, sailing, horseback riding and an overnight on a boat.  I had 19 guys camping with me last weekend at a Camporee that my son thought sounded cool so he brought it to the PLC's attention and they decided to do it.  

 

So what I"m saying actually has worked to make our Troop's outdoor program more exciting and more boy-led.

[Eagledad 2777]

 

There is a difference between theory and practice.  Boys can only handle that onus if they have been trained.  They can only be trained by older scouts if the older scouts have experienced it.  If there is no experience in using your imagination to determine what is possible, you will be stuck with the same as last year.  

 

Unfortunately that is not an across-the-board assumption one need make.  If one never bothers to ask the youth what they want to do, that in itself will take away the the dream and they will settle for last year's events because what's the point in doing anything that might really be a bit new and adventurous?

 

 

It's not an across the board assumption, it's experience. And, if the scouts is asked what they want to do, it generally is either "I don't know" or something that isn't challenging. Then the adults are stuck trying to pry ideas out of them without coming off as their own idea. And that eventually works, but I will challenge most any troop leader that thinks they have that skill mastered in that their scouts will invariably think of ideas from the adult perspective. It's how nature works. And really, is that such a bad thing? Really, I think we push the theory of boy run out of the reach of normal adults. 

 

This whole discussion keeps hitting at the real chicken and the egg problem. To we practice skills to learn them, or do we learn them to practice? If we are looking for a magic ring of getting adults up to speed with scout skills there isn't any really. Amateur adults in a new troop will naturally struggle to grow and must reach out past their comfort zone for help. How they do that depends on the adults and the unit. But finding skilled adults outside the unit is an obvious approach that I rarely see taken. Is it pride? I don't know, that was how our troop expanded it's program. And I might even suggest a troop camping with an experienced troop to learn from observing.

 

One other observation I have seen many times is that young scouts need a boost to grow beyond their comfort zone. Rarely have I seen an 11 year excited to camp in a strange dark woods without someone around they trust. It is the nature of survival. I remember our the first morning of our first campout with our 2nd year Webelos. We noticed a spot next to the tent that smelled of urine. We didn't make a big deal of it, but we learned that for young scouts, the path to the latrine in the middle of the night is a lot scarier than in the day. A lantern near the latrine makes a big difference. We also advise the PLs of new scouts to help them in anyway possible on their first camp out. 

 

 

Hedgehog is right, scouts need some confidence. Whether that comes from training, patrol leader, older scout, or adults within an ear shot away, they want something more than being told that it is all up to them.

 

Barry 

[Eagledad 2777]

@@Stosh, what was the most exciting thing your troop did in their outdoor program last year?

 

Ours was the 25 mile bike ride to a scout camp, camping overnight and then riding 25 miles back.  No, maybe it was the day at the COPE course followed by a day rock climbing on a real rock wall.  Hang on... I forgot about the canoeing, camping on an island, canoing some more and then backpacking.  Oh, what about the campout on the beach with the bonfire.  Now, its got to be the 50 mile backpacking trek in the mountains of New Hampshire.  Or was it the sea kayaking trip?  

 

Some were scout's ideas, others came from the leaders.  All were chosen by the boys among options on a list developed by the PLC.  All of the logistics were arranged by adults (getting the campsites, renting the canoes and kayaks, arranging for service projects, etc.) but all of the outings were executed by the scouts.

 

This year, the scouts want to do whitewater rafting, sailing, horseback riding and an overnight on a boat.  I had 19 guys camping with me last weekend at a Camporee that my son thought sounded cool so he brought it to the PLC's attention and they decided to do it.  

 

So what I"m saying actually has worked to make our Troop's outdoor program more exciting and more boy-led.

Very impressive Hedge.

 

Barry

[Stosh 3452]

@@Stosh, what was the most exciting thing your troop did in their outdoor program last year?

 

 

So what I"m saying actually has worked to make our Troop's outdoor program more exciting and more boy-led.

 

They attended summer camp and earned MB's cooked all meals in the site, did 2 camporees, did extensive hiking (3 outings) tried out kayaking, went fishing marched in the Memorial Day parade, walked the neighborhood for the 5 mile hike with compass and did Scouting for food.  Show and sell popcorn and other fundraisers were outside as well. and earned their Scout and Tenderfoot ranks. I figured that was plenty for the first year of a brand new troop.

 

It didn't make our troop any more boy-led, it simply started out that way.

 

By the way, the last two meetings were devoted to whitewater canoeing lessons because come next spring, they would like to do a whitewater canoe trip.  They are also looking into a different summer camp as well.  They are also coordinating with another troop about a week long canoe float on some of the local rivers in the area.  It would seem that they have some wild hair at this point about canoes.  I guess we'll see where it goes.  Sounds kinda fun to me.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Stosh

[Stosh 3452]

It's not an across the board assumption, it's experience. And, if the scouts is asked what they want to do, it generally is either "I don't know" or something that isn't challenging. Then the adults are stuck trying to pry ideas out of them without coming off as their own idea. And that eventually works, but I will challenge most any troop leader that thinks they have that skill mastered in that their scouts will invariably think of ideas from the adult perspective. It's how nature works. And really, is that such a bad thing? Really, I think we push the theory of boy run out of the reach of normal adults. 

 

This whole discussion keeps hitting at the real chicken and the egg problem. To we practice skills to learn them, or do we learn them to practice? If we are looking for a magic ring of getting adults up to speed with scout skills there isn't any really. Amateur adults in a new troop will naturally struggle to grow and must reach out past their comfort zone for help. How they do that depends on the adults and the unit. But finding skilled adults outside the unit is an obvious approach that I rarely see taken. Is it pride? I don't know, that was how our troop expanded it's program. And I might even suggest a troop camping with an experienced troop to learn from observing.

 

One other observation I have seen many times is that young scouts need a boost to grow beyond their comfort zone. Rarely have I seen an 11 year excited to camp in a strange dark woods without someone around they trust. It is the nature of survival. I remember our the first morning of our first campout with our 2nd year Webelos. We noticed a spot next to the tent that smelled of urine. We didn't make a big deal of it, but we learned that for young scouts, the path to the latrine in the middle of the night is a lot scarier than in the day. A lantern near the latrine makes a big difference. We also advise the PLs of new scouts to help them in anyway possible on their first camp out. 

 

 

Hedgehog is right, scouts need some confidence. Whether that comes from training, patrol leader, older scout, or adults within an ear shot away, they want something more than being told that it is all up to them.

 

Barry 

 

But it is an adult-oriented assumption.

 

My boys filled out next year's calendar with no help from me.  They have picked up on what's available out there from other scouts, finding out what they're doing and from looking at other troop programs.  The Memorial Day parade was because they did it as Cubs and enjoyed it.  Kayaking came about because I was talking to my ASM about kayaking (we are both kayakers) and the boys might have been listening in.  They also know I own two canoes.  The hikes were a result of them knowing  on their own what they need to do for advancement, and the week long canoe trek with primitive camping came from the week at last summer camp where they shared ideas with the troop they were sharing the site with.

 

My #1 comment is not, "What do you boys want to be doing?" it is "That sounds like fun to me."  As adults we are the ones that sit in the background and watch to see that the boys are getting things ready for the event.  If they miss a step, the adults are prepared to work with the boys to assist them through the mistake and help them get back on track...IF THEY ASK, otherwise we just watch.  Most of the time, they figure it out on their own.

[Eagledad 2777]

The BSA looses more scouts during their first year (six months really) in the troop than any other age group. The reason, in so many words, was they didn't trust the boy run program. The shock of going from adult guidance for 11 years to boy guidance in just a few weeks is more than many boys can tolerate. THAT is the single biggest reason the New Boy Patrol was created.  

 

The problem stosh is there is a key step, or steps, missing between a new scouting walking in the door their first day and the advise of giving scouts the full responsibility for their program and activities. It doesn't do any good for adults looking for answers to leave that step out. Remember, you keep bragging that you have 40 something years as a scout leader. Many folks checking out this forum barely have four months. Hedgehog's and others here have some advice to helping the first day scout to a confident independent scout setting out on his dreams.

 

Sadly the membership loss numbers for the first year scouts hasn't changed with the NSP, or at least as of ten years ago. So that means the NSP didn't approach fixing the problem. That makes sense to me because the problem for first year scouts is that they are very uncomfortable going from the orderly adult led lifestyle to the chaotic boy run lifestyle. Shocked is an appropriate word. Just because all your patrol mates are your same age friends doesn't make it less chaotic. New scouts need to be given some time to get weaned from their total trust of the adults to the trust of their youth leaders. And it's OK for the adults to be part of the success of a boy run program. 

 

Barry

[Stosh 3452]

So what you're saying is introducing new boys into a boy-led program whether it is through the NSP or just full steam ahead doesn't make a difference in the loss of first year scouts.

 

So my 2/3rds loss was due to the fact that I didn't start the boys out adult led and move to boy led later on?

 

1 boy left because he didn't like scouts.  It was his single mom that was pushing for him to have adult male influence on him.

1 boy left because his buddy left.

1 boy left because he was more interested in 4-H a program where his sisters had excelled in.

1 boy left because he moved out of the area.

1 boy left because he wanted a troop where he didn't want to work so hard.  He moved to a troop 30 miles away in a different state.  He lives 4 blocks from the troop he left and bypassed at least 6-8 to get to the other troop.

First year of operation as a troop so they were basically a NSP anyway.

 

How would one justify adult led vs. boy led emphasis for first year scouts as having any effect on this situation of major loss the first year?

 

Not to worry.  I have 7 new boys committed to coming in next year, but I'm still saddled with NSP vs. inexperienced "older" boys who will now be 12.

 

Sure, one can brag about their version of boy-led because they either inherited it from another SM or they have older boys already present that have made the transition.

 

Try it some day from scratch, then one will see a whole new set of dynamics that don't fit in with working with an established unit of older boys.

 

I took over a floundering unit of 5 boys and built it up to 28 boys in 4 years.  Only two of the 5 boys stuck with the program, but it was enough.

 

One might want to try it sometime.  Walk into a neighborhood that has no scouting and establish a troop out of nothing.  Everything one knows about adult led AND boy led is gone.

 

One year of development, one year of operations and we have 2 last year Webelos boys hanging in there having a great time.  7 new Webelos looking to come in in a couple of months.  The boys are doing great.  I'm thinking the new Webelo boys first two major outings are going to be the spring camporee and a whitewater canoe trip.  How's that for adventure right out of the box?  

I'm sure there are a ton of other better ways of doing it out there done by thousands of different units, but my boys are showing advanced leadership skills after their first year in the program...and even more importantly, they are having fun doing it.  Maybe after a coupe more years of this kind of leadership development, they'll be old enough for BSA's NYLT program of "real scout" leadership.

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

@@Hedgehog,

 

If my original post sounded harsh, I apologize as that was not the case.  I think those topics ARE needed for new leaders with with little to no expereince. I know some of those topics have been taught at UoS locally.

 

My concern is that back in the day, it was expected that First Class Scouts had the knowledge, skills, and abilities in those topics and could teach those courses.  Sadly, I am seeing more and more  "one and done" Scouts.

 

My son's troop is not perfect. there are things I'd like to change, and some things that need to change. But one thing I like is that they haven't emphasized advancement until very recently. The focus was on outdoor adventure and fun. It's only with Philmont and the requirement changes next year that everyone has gotten a swift kick in the but to talk to the SM and get signed off.

 

NOW one thing I'd like to change in regards to advancement, besides having PLs and other youth sign off on T-2-1 requirements ( don't ask), is what has been called "stealth advancement." When you see the scouts doing something, going ahead and signing off right then and there. I don't think you need to wait for the Scout to ask you to sign off. If you see them do it, get it done.

[mashmaster 783]

Just from a time perspective, if we (as experienced scouters) were going to reorganize training, I'd hope we would do a few things:

1. Increase the value, decrease the time commitment.
2. Make the training complete and relevant.
3. Standardize how it is taught.
4. Increase availability.
5. Make re-certification easy and fast.
6. Eliminate redundancy.
7. If they cost money, make them cost-effective.

That's my input. I think much of the current training can be re-used, but let's eliminate things that may not be needed OR that could be combined if only to reduce the time we spend training.

I agree

[TAHAWK 1420]

"If I can't answer that question, I'm heading to the State Park and council camps where there is plenty of immediate support and cell phone bars if needed instead of the back woods .  Even if I might feel a bit comfortable with the woods doesn't mean I'm taking 20 unknowns with me that I am responsible for their safety."

 

????

[Hedgehog 334]

I would think that U of Scouting could handle some of this kinds of thing, but instead of 6-8 short cursory courses, have one intensive course that will cover a units' next year's major activity.  Even then, one day isn't going to be enough.

 

This whole discussion keeps hitting at the real chicken and the egg problem. To we practice skills to learn them, or do we learn them to practice? If we are looking for a magic ring of getting adults up to speed with scout skills there isn't any really. Amateur adults in a new troop will naturally struggle to grow and must reach out past their comfort zone for help. How they do that depends on the adults and the unit.  

 

My concern is that back in the day, it was expected that First Class Scouts had the knowledge, skills, and abilities in those topics and could teach those courses.  Sadly, I am seeing more and more  "one and done" Scouts.

 

So, I"m now thinking along the lines of having a "track" at University of Scouting for "Adventure" for both adults and scouts:  

 

Backpacking Gear (1.5 hours)

Backcountry Cooking (.5 hours)

Backpacking Trek Planning and Adventures (1.0)

Canoeing / Kayaking / Rafting (1.0 hour)

100 Hikes and Adventures (1.0 hour)

 

The last three classes would include ideas of where to go and what to do -- even having the participants make suggestions.  My goal is to give adults the basics and get them excited about doing some of these things.  Heck, I can even work in discussions of how this works in boy-led (I remember a couple of comments on the fact that I don't have a map on a trek -- just the boys) and how to work with the boys in planning the events.  Add in a resource guide -- checklists, website links to trail organizations, etc.

 

The best part is I can get the guys from my Troop to do the presentations -- no better way to showcase boy-led.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Hedgehog

[Stosh 3452]

"If I can't answer that question, I'm heading to the State Park and council camps where there is plenty of immediate support and cell phone bars if needed instead of the back woods .  Even if I might feel a bit comfortable with the woods doesn't mean I'm taking 20 unknowns with me that I am responsible for their safety."

 

????

 

 The quote is a bit out of context.  The point I was making was even though I have all the appropriate woodsman skills of fire-building, cooking, tents, woods tools, tying knots, etc. and am quite comfortable with being in the woods as an adult, why would I think it okay to take 20 young boys of which I know very little about what they may do when they are in a strange forest environment.  Having skills training is one thing, but one also needs to understand the psychological development of boys at this age as well.  Having a boy do a home sickness meltdown in a council camp or State Park might require a certain level of skill but with cell bars, reinforcements can be called in quickly.  On the other hand, we are talking about high adventure training.  What skills are necessary when a couple of the boys have a melt down 5 days into a 9 day trek in Philmont?  What sort of woods tools or knot tying skills are going to be helpful then?

 

If one is constantly seeking greater and greater adventure for the boys, each new challenge has it's own set of unknowns that BSA isn't addressing any of this with any training for the adult leaders.  All I was advocating was that they do.  A few on the forum didn't think the psychological stuff was necessary.  For the welfare of the boys, I do.  

 

The next chapter in the syllabus is what are the psychological dynamics of an adult melt down on a trek?  That happens too.  

 

With high adventure situations we are not dealing with the Webelos III extended council camp situations here,  If one has too many unknowns on some of these adventures, they will have to discourage the boys from attempting the challenges of high adventure.

[Hedgehog 334]

The BSA looses more scouts during their first year (six months really) in the troop than any other age group. The reason, in so many words, was they didn't trust the boy run program. The shock of going from adult guidance for 11 years to boy guidance in just a few weeks is more than many boys can tolerate. THAT is the single biggest reason the New Boy Patrol was created.  

 

So what you're saying is introducing new boys into a boy-led program whether it is through the NSP or just full steam ahead doesn't make a difference in the loss of first year scouts.

 

 

***

 

How would one justify adult led vs. boy led emphasis for first year scouts as having any effect on this situation of major loss the first year?

 

***

 

I'm sure there are a ton of other better ways of doing it out there done by thousands of different units, but my boys are showing advanced leadership skills after their first year in the program...and even more importantly, they are having fun doing it.  Maybe after a coupe more years of this kind of leadership development, they'll be old enough for BSA's NYLT program of "real scout" leadership.

 

I haven't seen a significant drop off by crossing over scouts in our unit.  Over the last three years, there were 1 scout out of around 28.  He joined on crossing over because his parents wanted him to, never went on a campout and didn't return the following September.

 

Any boy joining our Troop KNOWS it is boy-led.  Our guys are proud of it and tell the Webelos when they visit.  I've heard the kids tell their parents after the visit about how cool that is.  We have found that the new guys love it when they are stuck in a patrol at our weekly meetings from day one (the PLs -- not so much because by March they were just getting their patrol running smoothly) I think the KEY is that we get the new guys out on one or two campouts before the end of the school year.  Also, we have around 70% of the crossovers attend summer camp.  Get them outdoors and get them hooked.

 

That being said, the transition for the new guys does have some adult support.  They (and their parents) know that the adults have their backs.  I like to think that we act as liaisons.  They come to us with a question (that is what they are trained to do in Cubs) and we refer them to an older scout.  I joke a lot with the boys, "obviously, you've mistaken me for someone in charge... we're boy-led, he's in charge" or "See, it says "Boy Scouts" on my shirt... I'm not a Boy... Ask one of your Boy leaders").  I also talk to them about leadership... "leadership is about being responsible for others, the first step is to learn to be responsible for yourself."  There also are a lot of times that the boys need adult encouragement -- especially at summer camp.  I'd like to think that that there was more to the senior boys rejoicing when I showed up at summer camp mid-week by jumping up and down and yelling "Mr. Hedgehog is here!" that the fact that I brought the Dutch Ovens, the makings for dump cakes and marshmallows.  

 

It is only through adult leadership that boy-led thrives.  We need to know when to push independence and when to say "let me help you."  We need to be there when the new scout breaks down in tears (or worse, clams up and walks away) to steer them back on track and we need to be there when they accomplish the longest 5 mile hike they have ever done with a high-five.  The older boys are watching and they will mimic that behavior.  The younger boys will remember and in a couple of years understand what servant leadership is.

[Hedgehog 334]

What skills are necessary when a couple of the boys have a melt down 5 days into a 9 day trek in Philmont?  

 

The next chapter in the syllabus is what are the psychological dynamics of an adult melt down on a trek? 

 

Been there, done that.  On our 50 miler this summer, each of us (except maybe our SPL) hit our own walls.  Blisters on day one from shoes not tied tightly enough, blisters on day two from having done 15 miles in 2 days, sore legs, 1,000s of feet of pointless ups and downs, an adult (me) who packed too much in his pack (fear is heavy), long days on the trail, a scout on day three who says he didn't want to go in the first place, two adults who pushed their limits of endurance to the point where they were moving only through sheer determination, one scout who lost it on the last day because he couldn't take anymore.

 

I'm not sure you can teach those skills -- it comes from a lifetime of learning.

[Stosh 3452]

...or @@Hedgehog the loss of only one boy in the past 3 years is due to the fact that one's program isn't as boy-led as some others?  I'm kinda wondering if the dropout ratio is proportional to the boy-led dynamics.

 

Out of the 4 boys I lost the first year, only one was because of the boy-led issue.  He left because he didn't really want to work at it and wanted older boys around to do it for him so he joined another "boy-led" troop.  I put that in quotes because the only ones who think that troop is really boy-led are the adults of that troop.  The other three left for reasons that had nothing to do with the structure of the program.