Stosh 3452 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 If boys are friends with other boys who are relatively the same age, then one ends up with age based patrols. At least that's been my experience over the years of letting the boys select their own patrols. I also find that once they select early on in their career, they seldom make major changes. If a boy moves out of the area, they might try and draw in a boy close to their age or may just remain a boy short. Maybe a younger brother will be picked up down the road, but the switching out is not a normal occurrence. The troops that have mixed aged patrols usually have some adult involvement in the process of patrol selection. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagledad 2779 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) Summary ... For patrols to succeed, association is important. Strong life long friendships are the result of successful patrols. As such, age is a natural choice because boys of the same age tend to associate together. But adjusting for friendships is okay too. A key point though is the patrol members need to want to associate with each other. That's why many of us believe it's best to put all new same age scouts in a BSA proscribed "new scout patrol." After that, IMHO, let the scouts choose patrols as reflects their friendships, associations and desires for adventure. Breaking up "healthy" friendships or natural associations is self-defeating. Reorganizing patrols is dangerous. Sadly you had to finish with hypothetical make believe to impress your point because you don't beleave the rest of your post can hold your opinion. There is no mention of age based patrols in the BSA or Baden Powells scout's because there wasn't any need for the definition until 1990 when the program was change to add New Scout Patrols (NSP). Until then scouts joined troops individually when they qualified by age, not in groups of Webelos the way it is now. That is when the terms aged based and boy run became descriptive terms of the troop program. You may find old timers like me who were in same age patrol before 1990, but it was rare. So scouting not only survived with mixed age patrols for almost 80 years, the organization became legend. Now you may may want to debate what defines a tradition scout program, but for me it was up until age based patrols were introduced in 1990. I don't know why you feel you have to demonize mixed age patrols to impress your point. I respect that your style of leading lends itself better with same age scouts. However, I don't respect your style of trying make your point. Can't you just say I'm more comfortable with same age patrols and let that stand for your opinion? I have a lot of experience with both mixed age and same age patrols so I can discuss with the best of them on both sides. Barry Edited May 21, 2015 by Eagledad Link to post Share on other sites
Eagledad 2779 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Stosh, you didn't answer the question, how do you think Scouting stood the test of time with mixed age patrols? Barry Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 How does one get the patrols to be mixed without adult intervention? Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 By the way in the 1960's when I was in scouts, I don't remember any boys in my patrol that weren't buddies with me in the same class at school. We hung out together in Scouts, in School and in the neighborhood. Like I said before, we would camp the weekends without adults whether it was a scout activity or not. After 4 years of scouting and none of us had advanced yet to FC, we as a group all quit and joined Civil Air Patrol.... as a group. It was high school graduation that brought an end to the "gang". Link to post Share on other sites
blw2 433 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 interesting discussion I see the point of a patrol of friends.... and that most likely means the same or at least very close ages.... But when I think of scouting, at least theoretically, I think of older more senior ranked boys mentoring and helping the younger boys. Doesn't work so well when the PL is the same age and has the same experience level. I have no recollection how the patrols were set up during my short time in the troop as a boy. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle94-A1 2687 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 As someone mentioned the concept of a New Scout Patrol where all the new scouts are in one patrol, is concept that came out in 1989. When Scouts joined a patrol, they joined with folks they knew or met in Scouts. None of the guys in my patrol were in my neighborhood or school. One patrol welcomed me and I was with them until my troop attempted a NSP which didn't work for us. This was in 1987. When the NSP cxoncept cam out in '89, we were rather surprised. Yes we split up Webelos dens. We had them buddy up with one of the scouts for a meeting and a camp out. they were part of that patrol for the night and campout. And when the time came, they would go with their new buddy into the patrol. Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 interesting discussion I see the point of a patrol of friends.... and that most likely means the same or at least very close ages.... But when I think of scouting, at least theoretically, I think of older more senior ranked boys mentoring and helping the younger boys. Doesn't work so well when the PL is the same age and has the same experience level. I have no recollection how the patrols were set up during my short time in the troop as a boy. But you're thinking theoretically in terms as an adult and the only way one is going to accomplish that is by adult mandate, not friend selection. This is the first step in an adult-led troop. The adults know better than the scouts. One of the main reasons the patrol-method doesn't work for adults is because if given the choice of hanging out with your buddies or babysitting the new guys, they will not babysit unless the adults dictate that they do. From that point on, the fun's over. Link to post Share on other sites
desertrat77 1144 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 As '70s era scout, I was in three different troops, five different patrols, during my time as a patrol member and/or patrol leader. Four were mixed aged patrols, one new scout patrol (of which I was a member). The mixed aged patrols ranged from okay to great. The new kid patrol was a dumping ground/holding pen for us young scouts, with a tried/true bully as PL (son of the SM, who never intervened). A year of toxic scouting, zero progress in skills or rank. It wasn't till I joined another troop that my experience on the scouting trail improved. Ideally, the boys should choose their own patrols. However, our national social structure is anything but stable. People move, and even if they stay in the same area, they rarely have the deep roots and connections of yesteryear. Families are highly compartmentalized, and folks don't seem to interact outside of their set boundaries. Patrol meetings? I'm all for them. But some scouts may live many miles apart, long tedious highway/traffic miles at that. If a troop can promote traditional patrols, by all means, full speed ahead. For the other troops, where membership turns over quickly, like a bus station, they just need to do the best they can. Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 NSP with an older bully PL? I'm sure the boys had a chance to pick their PL. Oh, no they didn't? This is not a same aged patrol. This is a mixed patrol with heavy adult influence on its makeup. Sorry, not a good example. A true NSP will have it's own PL elected from its membership just like any other patrol. Thus troops have a TG to work with that patrol. Otherwise one has a NSP, a bully PL and what is the TG doing? Once again adults running the patrols is not the patrol-method. Link to post Share on other sites
TAHAWK 1420 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 "BP in "Scouting for Boys" simply said 6 to 8 boys. BP said patrols choose their own leader; not assigned. No discussion about age. That's it." B-P's Patrol System had the patrol leader "chosen" by the "officer" (Scoutmaster). Scouting for Boys, Part I at pp.20 and 35. See also, Roland Phillips, The Patrol System and Letters to a Patrol Leader, C. Arthur Pearson, Ltd.,(1916), forward by Lord Baden-Powell, Chief Scout., at pp. 6-7. We, of course, supposedly use Bill's Patrol Method. in which the Patrol Leader is elected, merely an option when BSA began. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagledad 2779 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 How does one get the patrols to be mixed without adult intervention?ah, I see what you are saying, traditional scouting was adult run. Still, it was successful for a long time, how do you account for that stosh? Barry Link to post Share on other sites
desertrat77 1144 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) NSP with an older bully PL? I'm sure the boys had a chance to pick their PL. Oh, no they didn't? This is not a same aged patrol. This is a mixed patrol with heavy adult influence on its makeup. Sorry, not a good example. A true NSP will have it's own PL elected from its membership just like any other patrol. Thus troops have a TG to work with that patrol. Otherwise one has a NSP, a bully PL and what is the TG doing? Once again adults running the patrols is not the patrol-method. Stosh, believe me, everything about that disaster of a patrol falls in the category of "not a good example"! Bad description/label on my part. Should have just let "holding pen" suffice. TG: has to be the right senior scout if the NSP benefits. Be it the TG of today, or a member of the Leadership Corps of old, they can either be a big help or just a bunch of senior scouts sitting around shooting the breeze. Edited May 21, 2015 by desertrat77 Link to post Share on other sites
Eagledad 2779 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 TG: has to be the right senior scout if the NSP benefits. Be it the TG of today, or a member of the Leadership Corps of old, they can either be a big help or just a bunch of senior scouts sitting around shooting the breeze. TGs were created 1990 (1989?) to replace the older scouts of the traditional scout program. I've never seen a good TP that was 14 and younger TP. I've never been less than impressed with a TP that was 16 and older. I grew to respect ages and stages. Barry Link to post Share on other sites
blw2 433 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 But you're thinking theoretically in terms as an adult and the only way one is going to accomplish that is by adult mandate, not friend selection. This is the first step in an adult-led troop. The adults know better than the scouts. One of the main reasons the patrol-method doesn't work for adults is because if given the choice of hanging out with your buddies or babysitting the new guys, they will not babysit unless the adults dictate that they do. From that point on, the fun's over. yes, ok true enough. Makes sense.... but how does a patrol of green horns have any depth of experience or leadership? Seems like a military platoon of all buck privates. Link to post Share on other sites
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