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andysmom

delayed/deferred/denied rank advancement after BOR. Why?

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We have been trying to recruit new committee members for the entire time I have been on the committee, in fact, just prior to the BOR I spoke with this particular scout's father about joining the committee and he asked me to send him information about what is involved...

 

My son is 13, he is a first class scout who just had his SMC for Star. When he ages out our intention is to be sure whatever positions we hold in the troop are covered and move on to district or council levels for him and I would like to volunteer at the council office.

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Forward your offending committee members this video from BSA National "Guardians of the Gate"

 

I love this video, thank you for sharing, sadly I doubt either committee member would watch it. After telling the DC that he understood the no testing rule and promised that it would never happen again, we offered to give "new CC" my copy of the GTA and the committee guidebook because he is taking on this new responsibility, he turned him down flat and said that he has every intent of having the scout set up a tent. Maybe he didn't want my obviously used copy with my notes from the last 3 years of committee and advancement training that I have taken, but I doubt it.

 

We sent several emails asking district and council if we are missing something, if we are in error. If we are we will give a sincere and heartfelt apology. We do not know everything about the program, maybe we interpreted the rules incorrectly, maybe we still are, but I really don't think so. The way I handled the incident was not my finest moment. The District advancement chair spoke with me yesterday and told me he had received a call form the "old CC". I explained my view of what happened and urged him to speak with the "old CC". The district advancement chair knows the "old CC" outside of scouting so he admitted that it put him in an uncomfortable position so he planned to discuss it with council. The council advancement chair knows my husband very well as they served on wood badge staff for the last 2 courses, he was also the merit badge counselor for the 2 citizenship merit badges that the scout put together and completed with a small group of scouts.

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There are many scouters out there that don't care about what is documented or communicated. They want their own vision implemented.

 

Wish you the best.

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It's time for a lesson in scouter-speak ...

... We sent several emails ... if we are in error ... we will give a sincere and heartfelt apology. We do not know everything about the program' date=' maybe we interpreted the rules incorrectly, maybe we still are, but I really don't think so.[/quote']

You may have been taught that this is the right way to go, promising to offer an apology if you're wrong. But in other scouter's ears, it rings of false humility. You're husband is a coach. He's read the rulebook. He threw down the red flag. NOBODY apologizes for that in advance. And when the ref rules against the coach, no apology is needed after. Never apologize for doing your best. That's not what apologies are for.

 

Now it's time for me to be chauvinistic ...

The way I handled the incident was not my finest moment. The District advancement chair spoke with me yesterday and told me he had received a call form the "old CC". I explained my view of what happened and urged him to speak with the "old CC". The district advancement chair knows the "old CC" outside of scouting so he admitted that it put him in an uncomfortable position so he planned to discuss it with council. The council advancement chair knows my husband very well as they served on wood badge staff for the last 2 courses' date=' he was also the merit badge counselor for the 2 citizenship merit badges that the scout put together and completed with a small group of scouts.[/quote']

 

Yeah sure, you went all "momma bear" on the good-old-boys. Don't make it a habit. Guys don't like it.

 

DAC's are supposed to be friends with scouters (comes with the fourth point of The Law). Don't expect him to choose between you and his buddy. Asking politely if he can use his friendship to get the guy to see things at least a little bit your way is one thing, asking him to play hard-nosed referee is another. Also you're not asking the DAC and CAC to choose sides. Let everyone know that you respect what they do for the boys, and if you flew off the handle it's because you were caught off guard by something you found to be patently absurd.

 

Now, go help that boy figure out the kind of tent that would give him and his buddies the most cheer while setting it up! ;) Oh, I forgot to suggest the boy assemble 8'foot tripods suspending a cross-beam or bull/climbing rope for the ridge pole, and a 12'-by-24' tarp (include four 4'-5' spars to suspend side walls). Weighted properly, the tripods could also support a couple of hammocks. Use a hatchet to cut the tent pegs from branches on site. He could request committee complete the BoR on site. :cool:

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I'm on board with Qwasze's sentiment in the over-the-top area but I'd suggest you just tell the kid to set up a pup tent then egg the guy's house for the same effect with less effort.

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Video: "The purposes of Advancement are to build the boys' confidence and self-esteem." [apx]

 

BSA:

"The steps in the advancement system help a Boy Scout grow in self-reliance and in the ability to help others."

 

"Experiential learning is the key: Exciting and meaningful activities are offered, and education happens. Learning comes from doing. "

 

"Success is achieved when we fulfill the BSA Mission Statement and when we accomplish the aims of Scouting: character development, citizenship training, and mental and physical fitness. We know we are on the right track when we see youth accepting responsibility, demonstrating self-reliance, and caring for themselves and others; when they learn to weave Scouting ideals into their lives; and when we can see they will be positive contributors to our American society."

 

What I was taught: Advancement is a way of giving recognition for behaviors we wish to encourage. It encourages both the recipient and those who see the recipient being recognized.

 

 

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Had a BOR last Monday for Tenderfoot, He has his First Aid Merit badge and Cooking Merit Badge as well. He could not tell me the order of the cleaning pots, nor could he tell me why you keep chicken and hamburger meat separated but what really did him in was he couldn't tell me what EDGE stood for. He came back last night knowing those answers.

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Had a BOR last Monday for Tenderfoot' date=' He has his First Aid Merit badge and Cooking Merit Badge as well. He could not tell me the order of the cleaning pots, nor could he tell me why you keep chicken and hamburger meat separated but what really did him in was he couldn't tell me what EDGE stood for. He came back last night knowing those answers. [/quote']

 

I'm gonna pick on you just a little, but understand that I'm doing it from an anti-EDGE bias. I suspect your conversation was more in depth, friendly, and encouraging. So don't think I'm taking issue with how you did things, but more how it comes off in the ether.

  • Per GTA recommendations, did you provide a written statement regarding why his advancement was delayed and what he needs to do to rectify it? Not judging. Just wondering who really does this for lower ranks.
  • So, he forgot (or never learned) some key points of an MB he supposedly earned.
    • Blame it on everyone thinking that teaching a kid via EDGE is the bees knees. Did you ask who his counselor was? Did he have a merit badge book? During the instruction was the material boring? Confusing?
    • Did you ask him if there was something the troop could do (maybe an activity to practice) to help him stay sharp?
    • Would he like his patrol to cook dinner for an upcoming meeting?

    [*]He couldn't rattle off an acronym.

    • Did you ask around if there are there mitigating factors that might make this difficult for him. (Is English his second language? Does he find reading/spelling hard?)
    • Did you ask him if he ever taught anyone some something (maybe to throw a ball, to play a video game, to tell a funny joke)? Then follow-up with these questions:
      • Did he/she learn what you were teaching?
      • How did you teach it? Did you talk, get a reference, show how, practice?
      • What worked best?
      • Would you do something differently next time?

I'm just trying to emphasize that the point is not just to be sure that a kid can rattle off the right answers. It's also to help the committee and the scout figure out how to build a better troop.

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It's also to help the committee and the scout figure out how to build a better troop.

 

That is 100% correct. And then add to also encourage and discuss future advancement.

 

The BOR is not at all about making sure the scout knows a specific skill or answer. That's water over the dam. He's already been evaluated and was passed. It's about improving the troop and improving the scout's experience with the troop.

 

 

 

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I'm gonna pick on you just a little, but understand that I'm doing it from an anti-EDGE bias. I suspect your conversation was more in depth, friendly, and encouraging. So don't think I'm taking issue with how you did things, but more how it comes off in the ether.

 

No problem I will explain

 

 

[*]Per GTA recommendations, did you provide a written statement regarding why his advancement was delayed and what he needs to do to rectify it? Not judging. Just wondering who really does this for lower ranks.

 

We did, we called him back into the room and said specifically what we needed to work on a little more. I circled the specific Items. I get the lower rank, but he doesn't "get it" at a lower rank will he "get it" in a higher rank? For Temderfoot you have to explain what EDGE is, I personally have no issues with EDGE. If I ask what EDGE is and you can not specifically tell what what EDGE means then HOW are you going to teach someone else EDGE its a very very simple concept.

 

 

 

 

 

[*]So, he forgot (or never learned) some key points of an MB he supposedly earned.

[*]Blame it on everyone thinking that teaching a kid via EDGE is the bees knees. Did you ask who his counselor was? Did he have a merit badge book? During the instruction was the material boring? Confusing?

[*]Did you ask him if there was something the troop could do (maybe an activity to practice) to help him stay sharp?

[*]Would he like his patrol to cook dinner for an upcoming meeting?

 

My Troop ( I am just the committee chairman) isnt what I want it to be which is why my son (web1) will be going to a different troop..They need more camping! When he couldn't answer some of these cooking questions I looked at the ASM and another member of the board and said "He would probably know the ins and outs of a kitchen if he was using it more"

 

 

I'm just trying to emphasize that the point is not just to be sure that a kid can rattle off the right answers. It's also to help the committee and the scout figure out how to build a better troop.

 

I get that and I want them to build a better troop, but I am not just going to sign something off and be that troop that has all these boys and cant do a simple task of setting up a wash station.

 

  • Upvote 2

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... I get that and I want them to build a better troop' date=' but I am not just going to sign something off and be that troop that has all these boys and cant do a simple task of setting up a wash station. [/quote']

 

Jason ... I absolutely know you mean well and that you want the best for the scouts. The trouble is the WHEN. The skill test is when individual skills are signed off and definitely not during a BOR. Reinforcement occurs through the troop program such as during camp outs.

 

The issue is doing those tests at a BOR. That's not a BOR's job and it's a self-contradiction. A BOR testing scouts on scout skills so the scout knows his skills directly means that BOR does not know their own job per how BSA has instructed leaders to run BORs. It's an oxymoron. The two contradict each other.

 

Explicitly, scout skill testing is the job of the scoutmaster or his designates (ASMs or senior scouts). Skill testing is absolutely NOT the role of the BOR members.

 

Improve the troop program by pushing for valid and effective skills tests before the skill is signed off. Not by testing during the BOR.

 

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I get it. The SM has not been focused on skills retention. So, JG172 wants that to change, and he uses the boy as an example. That'll only get him so far.

 

Like I said if a boy can't rattle off the meaning of an acronym, but he can tell me in his own words how someone should teach/learn a skill, he's okay in my book ... especially if one of his steps is "look it up in the book!" :0

 

The adults need to get their heads out of the sand and get on the same page with skills challenges. Or, accept that some skills don't matter.

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I get it. The SM has not been focused on skills retention. So' date=' ##### wants that to change, and he uses the boy as an example. [/quote']

 

Qwazse ... Very well said. I've marked out any specific name because "I think" this is a pattern we see repeatedly in scouting. Scouts being used as leverage because people disagree on how the program works.

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My Troop ( I am just the committee chairman) isnt what I want it to be which is why my son (web1) will be going to a different troop..

 

Just the committee chair! You realize that as Committee Chair you have the power to get the troop moving in the correct direction.

 

That ASM shouldn't have been a part of the Board of Review. Drop the skill testing from the BOR and only include committee members who have been fully trained. The goal of the Board of Review is to get an idea if the troop leaders are doing their job.

 

As committee chair I would have asked about EDGE, but only to discuss the experience and did they see how it can work. We would also talk about other scout skills they wanted to learn. If the scout can't remember EDGE, then I would have a talk with the scoutmaster, but I would not hold back the 11 year old.

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