qwazse Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 "Basementdweller commented #16.7 I think these should be regularly scheduled and taught by the paid BSA folks out of council. No excuse leaning on volunteers that are too busy to do it. And that's why registration fees keep climbing. We all are getting more pathetically dependent on pros for everything. Way to go entitlement generation! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 KDD my IOLS staff was excellent as well. KDD you really are a horses _-_. I never complained about the IOLS......My statement was it was a really long course...... We struggle with getting new ASM's to attend.....My belief the length is responsible for the difficulty recruiting Direct contact adult leadership with the troop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck it is a duck.... I'd get leaders Baloo trained, it is easy and file trip plans for each trip. It helps protect you for the just in case moment. I hope you never have a moment like that but you never know when that will happen. Protects you from what exactly???? the BSA insurance is only secondary insurance.......... So after the injured persons insurance is done it might pick up the copays.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 "Basementdweller commented #16.7 I think these should be regularly scheduled and taught by the paid BSA folks out of council. No excuse leaning on volunteers that are too busy to do it. And that's why registration fees keep climbing. We all are getting more pathetically dependent on pros for everything. Way to go entitlement generation!Millennials.......really don't like them......ME ME ME ME ME ME ME The cub parents on facebook complain about the condition of the roads or the increase in paramedic response times and then complain about taxes....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 I would check with your Council about BALOO not being required if you stay within your Council. All Trip Permits go to National now. Here's the thing..accident or issue happens and lawyers get involved and ask for Trip Permit records. They find that BALOO wasn't on there, but you went anyway. BSA is off the hook, but you and your CO are.... Don't be on the 5 o'clock news for the wrong reasons. If you go "family camping" nothing counts for Rank Advancement and no Pack equipment used. BALOO is for Pack Camping. OWLS is how to put on the Webelos Program and to Camp with them. ITOLS/IOLS is how to put on the Boy Scout Program and to camp. OWLS/ITOLS is similar in function, but it's two different programs. Laughing at KDD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 Wait a minute......so you said not one that didn't conflict with a pack event.........so you couldn't miss one event to get trained????? That's right, basement. I don't remember the exact situations now, but there was only one or maybe two times.... and they conflicted with something big..... so no, I'm not going to have my son & I miss out on a major pack event to do something that should be offered much more often than it is. I'm not talking about a den meeting, I'm talking about a camp or a trip or something. Honestly, there should be no reason for me to even have to miss a den meeting for training. I thin it's mainly my district, but to a lessor extend the neighboring districts too..... but these things should be offered much more often..... and yes, they need to be offered over the summer when the students can actually attend. Let's turn this around.....Are you implying that if you were a trainer, you wouldn't miss out on going to jamboree to teach a class for the many Cub leaders that need to take a class over the summer?.... but if our Pack planned a trip to say, sleep on an aircraft carrier, that I should miss that trip and make my son miss out, so that I could attend Baloo? I was a one of a 20 member training staff for one of the councils 4 IOLS training courses....Two are in the fall, one winter and one in the spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADCinNC Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 In addition to your criteria for 'family camping', Hueymungus, I'd add that no unit money was used for the trip and that it was not advertised through the unit. Basically, if someone might think it was an official unit outing, then it's more than family camping. When my family goes camping with friends from scouts just because we like them, I consider that family camping. Anything else and we follow G2SS and all the other rules. As to the tour plan issue, here is a cut and paste from my council's website. With this thread in mind, I asked my DE about it a couple of days ago and the policy hasn't changed since it was posted last year. Q. When do I need to complete a tour plan ? A. Times when a tour plan must be submitted for council review include: Trips outside of council boundaries (bolding mine) Trips to any national high-adventure base, national Scout jamboree, National Order of the Arrow Conference, or regionally sponsored event When conducting the following activities outside of council or district events: Aquatics activities (swimming, boating, floating, scuba, etc.) Climbing and rappelling Orientation flights (process flying plan) Shooting sports Any activities involving motorized vehicles as part of the program (snowmobiles, boating, etc.) [*]At the council's request Some people can not see the forest for the trees :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 In addition to your criteria for 'family camping', Hueymungus, I'd add that no unit money was used for the trip and that it was not advertised through the unit. Basically, if someone might think it was an official unit outing, then it's more than family camping. When my family goes camping with friends from scouts just because we like them, I consider that family camping. Anything else and we follow G2SS and all the other rules. As to the tour plan issue, here is a cut and paste from my council's website. With this thread in mind, I asked my DE about it a couple of days ago and the policy hasn't changed since it was posted last year. Q. When do I need to complete a tour plan ? A. Times when a tour plan must be submitted for council review include: Trips outside of council boundaries (bolding mine) Trips to any national high-adventure base, national Scout jamboree, National Order of the Arrow Conference, or regionally sponsored event When conducting the following activities outside of council or district events: Aquatics activities (swimming, boating, floating, scuba, etc.) Climbing and rappelling Orientation flights (process flying plan) Shooting sports Any activities involving motorized vehicles as part of the program (snowmobiles, boating, etc.) [*]At the council's request My council's policy is exactly the same a sashas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 In addition to your criteria for 'family camping', Hueymungus, I'd add that no unit money was used for the trip and that it was not advertised through the unit. Basically, if someone might think it was an official unit outing, then it's more than family camping. When my family goes camping with friends from scouts just because we like them, I consider that family camping. Anything else and we follow G2SS and all the other rules. As to the tour plan issue, here is a cut and paste from my council's website. With this thread in mind, I asked my DE about it a couple of days ago and the policy hasn't changed since it was posted last year. Q. When do I need to complete a tour plan ? A. Times when a tour plan must be submitted for council review include: Trips outside of council boundaries (bolding mine) Trips to any national high-adventure base, national Scout jamboree, National Order of the Arrow Conference, or regionally sponsored event When conducting the following activities outside of council or district events: Aquatics activities (swimming, boating, floating, scuba, etc.) Climbing and rappelling Orientation flights (process flying plan) Shooting sports Any activities involving motorized vehicles as part of the program (snowmobiles, boating, etc.) [*]At the council's request I think ADC is confusing what family camping is there is a couple of different kinds.... You are correct the Pack camping is Family camping, but let me add, NOT all family camping is Pack camping Simply a group of scout families camping together.........they can drink and smoke and howl at the moon....Not at a scout camp That same group is either at a Pack campout or scout event.....The same behavior isn't acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADCinNC Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 In addition to your criteria for 'family camping', Hueymungus, I'd add that no unit money was used for the trip and that it was not advertised through the unit. Basically, if someone might think it was an official unit outing, then it's more than family camping. When my family goes camping with friends from scouts just because we like them, I consider that family camping. Anything else and we follow G2SS and all the other rules. As to the tour plan issue, here is a cut and paste from my council's website. With this thread in mind, I asked my DE about it a couple of days ago and the policy hasn't changed since it was posted last year. Q. When do I need to complete a tour plan ? A. Times when a tour plan must be submitted for council review include: Trips outside of council boundaries (bolding mine) Trips to any national high-adventure base, national Scout jamboree, National Order of the Arrow Conference, or regionally sponsored event When conducting the following activities outside of council or district events: Aquatics activities (swimming, boating, floating, scuba, etc.) Climbing and rappelling Orientation flights (process flying plan) Shooting sports Any activities involving motorized vehicles as part of the program (snowmobiles, boating, etc.) [*]At the council's request You are correct basement, and I have read the link completely and I understand it completely. People here though seem to think pack camping is not family camping, that is my point. When my "family" go camping we are not scout camping, but when a pack goes camping it is called "Family" camping by BSA standards, as Packs do things to include the family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted September 1, 2013 Author Share Posted September 1, 2013 KDD my IOLS staff was excellent as well. And you are a grouch, with no sense of humor. I agree with you that was long for IOLS, but hopefully allowed for some more advanced skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted September 1, 2013 Author Share Posted September 1, 2013 I would check with your Council about BALOO not being required if you stay within your Council. All Trip Permits go to National now. Here's the thing..accident or issue happens and lawyers get involved and ask for Trip Permit records. They find that BALOO wasn't on there, but you went anyway. BSA is off the hook, but you and your CO are.... Don't be on the 5 o'clock news for the wrong reasons. If you go "family camping" nothing counts for Rank Advancement and no Pack equipment used. BALOO is for Pack Camping. OWLS is how to put on the Webelos Program and to Camp with them. ITOLS/IOLS is how to put on the Boy Scout Program and to camp. OWLS/ITOLS is similar in function, but it's two different programs. Laughing is good. Do it more often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kari_cardi Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 Hueymungus, help me out here. Do you have special knowledge of how BSA insurance works for all the councils in the US? Or are you of the 'can't be too careful' persuasion? I found this on the BSA website which suggests that my council is, in fact, following national guidelines. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/TourPlanFAQ.aspx Q. When do I need to complete a tour and activity plan? A. Times when a tour and activity plan must be submitted for council review include the following: Trips of 500 miles or more; or Trips outside of council borders (exception: not to your council-owned property); or Trips to Florida Sea Base, Northern Tier, Philmont Scout Ranch, Summit Bechtel Reserve (you will be asked to present a copy of your tour and activity plan upon arrival),national Scout jamboree, National Order of the Arrow Conference, or a regionally sponsored event; or When conducting any of the following activities outside of council or district events: Aquatics activities (swimming, boating, floating, scuba, etc.) Climbing and rappelling Orientation flights (process flying plan) Shooting sports Any activities involving motorized vehicles as part of the program (snowmobiles, boating, etc.); or At a council's request (Contact your local council for additional guidelines or regulations concerning tour and activity plans; many have set guidelines for events or activities within council boundaries such as for Cub Scout overnight camping.) Regardless, the tour and activity plan is an excellent tool that should be included in preparation for all activities, even those not requiring it. It guides a tour leader through itineraries, travel arrangements, two-deep leadership, supervision qualifications, and transportation. Q. Is it common for a council to set up a rigorous review of the tour and activity plan or have our unit submit a plan anytime we meet other than at our weekly meeting place? A. Your local council knows your local conditions, common tours, and activies best. We find that many councils set their policies based on those known risks. We suggest you contact your council if it choses to exceed the above policy on when and for what reasons a tour and activity plan should be filed for review. Since my council doesn't exceed 500 miles in breadth in any direction, it seems that our unit outings are covered without submitting a Trip Plan as long as we are within the council boundaries, barring the exceptions listed. The second FAQ quoted indicates that this may vary by council. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSScout Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 Our training regime includes all the usual: BALOO, OWLS, IOLS, all the online stuff. The trainers I work with make the following allowances: If you take the full SLST series (donuts and coffee in class room, & overnite weekend) AND some supplemental Cub sections, you have earned the BALOO, OWLS and SLST/IOLS all- in--one. BUT,,,, they DO recommend taking the BALOO seperately, like on the two seperate occasions offered in out home District, or one of the neighboring Districts, OR at University of Scouting, OR at the Cub Round-up, which is sort of a U of Cubs separate from the U of Scouting.... It is all about "The work is done by whoever shows up' and most folks know who is knowledgeable about what. I would not want some of our pros teaching the Scout series, as they have rarely been out in the LNTrenches, so to speak. One I have great respecrt for is a detail guy, good speaker, give you his shirt off his back, but I would be afraid he wouldn't know which end of the hatchet to hold. You can't have too much edy-cashun, as my uncle used to say. You might never need what you were taught, but you can't predict when you WOULD need it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hueymungus Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 Hueymungus, help me out here. Do you have special knowledge of how BSA insurance works for all the councils in the US? Or are you of the 'can't be too careful' persuasion? I found this on the BSA website which suggests that my council is, in fact, following national guidelines. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/TourPlanFAQ.aspx Q. When do I need to complete a tour and activity plan? A. Times when a tour and activity plan must be submitted for council review include the following: Trips of 500 miles or more; or Trips outside of council borders (exception: not to your council-owned property); or Trips to Florida Sea Base, Northern Tier, Philmont Scout Ranch, Summit Bechtel Reserve (you will be asked to present a copy of your tour and activity plan upon arrival),national Scout jamboree, National Order of the Arrow Conference, or a regionally sponsored event; or When conducting any of the following activities outside of council or district events: Aquatics activities (swimming, boating, floating, scuba, etc.) Climbing and rappelling Orientation flights (process flying plan) Shooting sports Any activities involving motorized vehicles as part of the program (snowmobiles, boating, etc.); or At a council's request (Contact your local council for additional guidelines or regulations concerning tour and activity plans; many have set guidelines for events or activities within council boundaries such as for Cub Scout overnight camping.) Regardless, the tour and activity plan is an excellent tool that should be included in preparation for all activities, even those not requiring it. It guides a tour leader through itineraries, travel arrangements, two-deep leadership, supervision qualifications, and transportation. Q. Is it common for a council to set up a rigorous review of the tour and activity plan or have our unit submit a plan anytime we meet other than at our weekly meeting place? A. Your local council knows your local conditions, common tours, and activies best. We find that many councils set their policies based on those known risks. We suggest you contact your council if it choses to exceed the above policy on when and for what reasons a tour and activity plan should be filed for review. Since my council doesn't exceed 500 miles in breadth in any direction, it seems that our unit outings are covered without submitting a Trip Plan as long as we are within the council boundaries, barring the exceptions listed. The second FAQ quoted indicates that this may vary by council. Not all Council's have insurance for all units like ours does. In checking the online Trip Permit process through myscouting I found this link: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/doc/GUIDE_TO_TOUR_PLANNING_PRINCIPLES.pdf It talks about having BALOO for overnighters amongst other things. All Trip Permits are now handled through National. Overall, I am the cautious type. Better safe than sorry and on the 5 o'clock news. I would check with your council's health and safety person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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